Financial independence through psychiatry

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I hesitated chiming in, wondering if convincing folks you can make it big is the right way to go. Will we attract more gunners, or perhaps more higher IQ folks with higher Step scores? Will we improve how Psych is practiced by getting higher-scoring residents? What are we selecting for?

Have felt the same way, although my motivations for not sharing my income situation are not so altruistic. Am quite happy for medical students and other doctors to consider psychiatry “low paying” and avoid it on that basis as it maintains the current situation of low supply. Of course, due to the nature of our patient interactions typically being of longer duration, and with relationships tending to be ongoing there is already a natural limit to the availability of psychiatric appointments. Should probably add that due to regional differences I’m also not competing with prescribing psychologists or nurse practitioners and this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

As a bit of a personal side project, I have been collecting data on my private practice income since I started in 2015.

All dollar amounts are in AUD, and our Financial year runs from July 1 to June 30.

YGraph.jpg


Income drops are typically explained due to taking annual leave – usually around December and June, and there was one overseas trip in March-April 2017. Slowdowns are generally expected through December and January due to the Christmas/NY period, and the rooms also close during this time.

Large increases on the graph are to some extent due to receiving inpatient payouts which I only bill once the patient is discharged which leads to an element of lag. Sometimes these balance out – eg. May and June 2019 are similar, despite taking 2 weeks off in June, as I received a few large payments from admissions done in the preceding months.

I started at 2 sessions (1 day) a week, increasing to 3 sessions around October/November of 2015. Somewhat reluctantly added another session in September 2018. This was because they had someone else interested in using the room for a half day and I didn’t want to feel rushed out and a few patients were complaining they couldn’t get into see me. Not sure when I will increase sessions next. Adding a third clinic day might get me over 450k pa, but I question if I really need that? If I earn more, I suppose I could retire faster – but how does one really conceptualise the state of working 2 days a week and having 4 day weekends?

My usual office hours are 8.30 to 5.30pm, and will see inpatients after those times. For new patients I will type up my notes in the same evening, and aim to finalise and send letters within the next 2-3 days. If I could cut back on the letter writing time, I would save a lot of time. However, while taking shortcuts is tempting I know that a constant complaint from GP referrers is that many psychiatrists don’t write back at all. Having reasonably detailed letters is a good summary and reminder for myself, and can often provide a good starting point to lead things off in review appointments. It’s also helpful for formal third party, insurance or legal requests which I can bill for. Getting paid for these has been quite an interesting experience. Some psychiatrists will accept the meagre “Recommended rate” on offer which may be less than a $80 and write a half assed report, but I prefer to do something of quality (as these reports reflect on myself) and demand that they actually pay me for my time which could end up being in the thousands. To date, this has ended up being a bonus source of income which I wouldn’t have otherwise known about during my training.

When I started I was seeing up to 6 new assessments in a day, and could be finishing around 2-3am which was also very draining. At the time it was manageable at only 1 day a week, but can remember thinking to myself that this wasn’t going to be sustainable in the long term, and definitely not as a full time gig. Over time I started to have more review appointment and less new patients. Developed some mild RSI which led to investing in a microphone and voice recognition software which also cut down on the admin time quite a bit.

If I admit any inpatients, I try to see them at least 5-6x a week which would roughly work out to an additional day per week. In total I’d estimate that I’d have around 17-25 hours of clinical face to face time per week, with about 5 hours of unbillable admin which is mainly letter writing back to referrers. I haven’t included practice running costs in those numbers, but the main expense is room rental which is a fixed sessional fee. Over time, this has become a smaller proportion of total income, hovering around the 10-15% mark.

Regarding fees, I have only raised my fee once in early 2019 and have not noticed much in terms of cancellations etc. After going to the dentist for a check-up I realised that I couldn’t actually remember how much I had been charged the previous appointment and figured most patients would probably be the same so long as the rise wasn’t extremely drastic. As well as having sunk costs, I also figured that psychiatric patients would wear the cost as opposed to starting out with someone new, which would have a higher initial cost for the first consultation. I had considered similar principles in designing my fee structure, which is slightly discounted for the initial consult fee relative to review appoints. Later on I was out on a GP visit and discussing this with my hospital marketing manager who told me that when she worked in sales you could pretty much get away with a 5-7% increase each year without too much issue. Try and push 10-15% and people will start to complain. I had increased reviews by 4% and new appointments by about 7.5% as I figured new patients would have no existing basis to compare against.
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Just to clarify, on days I have a new intake I'm spending a good 45 min with that intake and expanding my day. The 15, and sometimes it's 10 or 11, acute patients I'm seeing are follow-ups, I'm averaging around 15 min to 20 min on follow-ups, not 5 min as some folks are saying. I understand some of you think I'm giving substandard care, but that's not the case. This thread is getting a bit, how do you say, icy?
Depending on the patient population and support staff (good social workers who can take care of therapy and case management/family meetings), I don't think an average of 15 minutes of face time is all that far off for inpatient follow-ups. With psychotic patients who couldn't tolerate/participate much it'd be 10 and depressed folks maybe 20. As a resident, I generally had another 15-30 minutes of other work to do on top of the face time. (and potentially much more)
 
Have felt the same way, although my motivations for not sharing my income situation are not so altruistic. Am quite happy for medical students and other doctors to consider psychiatry “low paying” and avoid it on that basis as it maintains the current situation of low supply. Of course, due to the nature of our patient interactions typically being of longer duration, and with relationships tending to be ongoing there is already a natural limit to the availability of psychiatric appointments. Should probably add that due to regional differences I’m also not competing with prescribing psychologists or nurse practitioners and this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

???? AUD??? Psychiatrists in Australia get paid this much????
 
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Just to clarify, on days I have a new intake I'm spending a good 45 min with that intake and expanding my day. The 15, and sometimes it's 10 or 11, acute patients I'm seeing are follow-ups, I'm averaging around 15 min to 20 min on follow-ups, not 5 min as some folks are saying. I understand some of you think I'm giving substandard care, but that's not the case. This thread is getting a bit, how do you say, icy?
I depends on the complexity of patient. Straightforward mild depression and anxiety folks, who are employed and no personality disorders or substance abuse, 15 minutes is likely enough time.
 
Just to clarify, on days I have a new intake I'm spending a good 45 min with that intake and expanding my day. The 15, and sometimes it's 10 or 11, acute patients I'm seeing are follow-ups, I'm averaging around 15 min to 20 min on follow-ups, not 5 min as some folks are saying. I understand some of you think I'm giving substandard care, but that's not the case. This thread is getting a bit, how do you say, icy?

20 minutes x 15 patients = 5 hours, not 3.

3 hours/15 patients = 12 minutes per patient.

Sounds like you are either working a bit longer than claimed or rushing a bit more than claimed.
 
From my experience, patients hate the 10 min psychiatrist. Taking time to develop a connection and an actual relationship can make all the difference for their care, even when they are getting therapy from someone else. Patients are not going to tell you their personal things if you are rushing to see the next one and are much less likely to follow your recs if there is no connection. From my experience, "garden-variety" MDD/anxiety (I don't know what this means frankly), rarely exists; most patients are complex and you are going to run into issues with side effects, compliance, commitment and all sort of character-dependent things, which is why it's important to really understand the person. It's also one of the reasons why I don't like "collaborative care" much (PCP orders meds, if it's not "complicated"), because it's inevitable patients will get ****ty care. "Med management" isn't really as simple people make it out; comorbid diagnoses seem like the rule rather than the exception, and it's really important to understand all the factors that play in.

Also, just wanted to point out that this kind of holistic care is not only possible in private practice for $$$$. We do it in our residency clinics in the CMHC and the VA, and I suspect it's possible at any place with 1 hour intakes and 30 min followups.
 
Just to clarify, on days I have a new intake I'm spending a good 45 min with that intake and expanding my day. The 15, and sometimes it's 10 or 11, acute patients I'm seeing are follow-ups, I'm averaging around 15 min to 20 min on follow-ups, not 5 min as some folks are saying. I understand some of you think I'm giving substandard care, but that's not the case. This thread is getting a bit, how do you say, icy?

The icy feel you get is from a vocal minority who think psychiatry must be practiced a certain way only. And if you don't meet their criteria, you're practicing it wrong. They also over-exaggerate the competence of an NP. Then other kids wanting to fit in also pile on and it turns into a mob mentality. That is a shame because then this drives away people with different ideas and then this place becomes an echo chamber and boring. I appreciate you sharing the numbers and whatever details.
 
Depending on the patient population and support staff (good social workers who can take care of therapy and case management/family meetings), I don't think an average of 15 minutes of face time is all that far off for inpatient follow-ups. With psychotic patients who couldn't tolerate/participate much it'd be 10 and depressed folks maybe 20. As a resident, I generally had another 15-30 minutes of other work to do on top of the face time. (and potentially much more)
I was going to say, while I agree that cramming 25 patients into 4 hours is not good care and paves the way for replacement by NPs, on an inpatient unit, how common is it really to spend more than 15 minutes talking to a follow-up?
 
The icy feel you get is from a vocal minority who think psychiatry must be practiced a certain way only. And if you don't meet their criteria, you're practicing it wrong. They also over-exaggerate the competence of an NP. Then other kids wanting to fit in also pile on and it turns into a mob mentality. That is a shame because then this drives away people with different ideas and then this place becomes an echo chamber and boring. I appreciate you sharing the numbers and whatever details.

Or it's a vocal majority who feel that seeing 25 patients in 3-4 hours is just ****ty care.
 
The icy feel you get is from a vocal minority who think psychiatry must be practiced a certain way only. And if you don't meet their criteria, you're practicing it wrong. They also over-exaggerate the competence of an NP. Then other kids wanting to fit in also pile on and it turns into a mob mentality. That is a shame because then this drives away people with different ideas and then this place becomes an echo chamber and boring. I appreciate you sharing the numbers and whatever details.
So you’ve decided what the majority opinion is. Also you’ve discouraged the minority from sharing their opinions because they’re not in line with your thinking. They are “vocal” and “mobbing” you by sharing their thoughts and you’re feeling “icy” and uncomfortable with sharing your own opinions. This is now “boring” because you’re seeing too many dissenting viewpoints. This is medicine. We should always be questioning, sharing ideas and arguing to make things better.
 
20 minutes x 15 patients = 5 hours, not 3.

3 hours/15 patients = 12 minutes per patient.

Sounds like you are either working a bit longer than claimed or rushing a bit more than claimed.

Nothing is fixed. Life has variability. Work has variability. I was trying to give approximations. Caseloads change from day to day. I will have 10 follow ups one day, 15 another, finish up 1 hour later one day, you get the idea. How can you apply fixed math to reality? Things constantly change. What I'm trying to simply say is that I'm spending a good amount of time on followups in an inpatient setting that affords me extremely careful evaluations and patient interactions. I have time to call family members, discuss with teams, etc. I have superb teams of social workers and nurses so they handle everything else.

I'm simply here to say hey, it's possible to work half a day and still come out really well. Nothing more. Most doctors around here work 2 inpatient jobs, and make more than I.
 
How can you apply fixed math to reality?

What do you think statistics are for?

Things constantly change. What I'm trying to simply say is that I'm spending a good amount of time on followups in an inpatient setting that affords me extremely careful evaluations and patient interactions. I have time to call family members, discuss with teams, etc. I have superb teams of social workers and nurses so they handle everything else.

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I am edified to hear that you are not actually cranking through 25 people in half a day on a regular basis contra your initial post. That was the bit I think a lot of us thought was really problematic.

Still not as bad as phorensic and his 75 patients in a weekend though
 
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Or it's a vocal majority who feel that seeing 25 patients in 3-4 hours is just ****ty care.
That rate is ****ty care for us PCP types and your work is significantly more time intensive than mine
 
What do you think statistics are for?



I am edified to hear that you are not actually cranking through 25 people in half a day on a regular basis contra your initial post. That was the bit I think a lot of us thought was really problematic.

Still not as bad as phorensic and his 75 patients in a weekend though.a

seeing many patients in one day and delivering great care are not mutually exclusive. my practice is busier than ever, I'm seeing more patients than ever, and those who see patients underneath me in my group (counselors, psychiatrists) are busier than ever.
 
seeing many patients in one day and delivering great care are not mutually exclusive. my practice is busier than ever, I'm seeing more patients than ever, and those who see patients underneath me in my group (counselors, psychiatrists) are busier than ever.

If you are saying you are churning even faster that is dreadful to hear. IIRC you were talking about your modal appointment being about 5 minutes (feel free to correct me on that, it could have been someone else on that thread).

We aren't visual artists, y'all. There are multiple different ways to practice but there are also ways of doing it that are simply wrong or strictly inferior. Even jazz has rules and principles you ought to follow to make a good song.
 
seeing many patients in one day and delivering great care are not mutually exclusive. my practice is busier than ever, I'm seeing more patients than ever, and those who see patients underneath me in my group (counselors, psychiatrists) are busier than ever.
hell yeah bro go get it
 
Sooo what I'm getting in the thread is there are people who feel very strongly either way about how much time should be spent with a patient and still provide good care. Why don't we all agree to disagree and get back to talking about financial independence? 😛

Is there anyone here doing any sort of side gigs outside of regular clinical work to supplement for income?

For example I invest in index funds, do a bit of arts/crafts and sell them. I have friends who are doing insurance prior auth which seems to be a good gig for working from home. Some are flipping houses etc. I also know people who are doing very well in the stock market (actively investing, would make about the same as an attending salary if they watched the stocks full time, etc).
 
seeing many patients in one day and delivering great care are not mutually exclusive. my practice is busier than ever, I'm seeing more patients than ever, and those who see patients underneath me in my group (counselors, psychiatrists) are busier than ever.

Hell yeah
 
seeing many patients in one day and delivering great care are not mutually exclusive. my practice is busier than ever, I'm seeing more patients than ever, and those who see patients underneath me in my group (counselors, psychiatrists) are busier than ever.
Nor does being busy mean you're giving good care.
 
I'm simply here to say hey, it's possible to work half a day and still come out really well. Nothing more. Most doctors around here work 2 inpatient jobs, and make more than I.

It's possible to work 2/3 full time jobs part time? I guess it is, but frankly very few people can/will do it for a variety of reasons. I guess the point is that there is too much missing info from the example you cited for this to be a meaningful contribution to this thread (how to make ends meet in psychiatry), at least imo. :shrug:
 
I never said being busy correlates to good care.

Longer sessions doesn't necessarily translate to better care either. A skilled psychiatrist can do more in a 10 minute session than an unskilled one in five 40 minute sessions.
No, you just responded to a post calling into question the quality of your care by talking about how busy you are. No idea how I could have gotten the wrong idea there.
 
It isn't meaningful for an anonymous poster to say "I give high quality care", nor is there any way for us to actually measure/judge/know the quality of care any of us deliver here. However, if making such a statement would be meaningful to you, then....I give high quality care.
OK.

If your follow ups are 10 minutes, there's almost no way that's true unless the patients are high functioning and straightforward enough that a family doctor like me can manage their mental health.
 
What do you think statistics are for?

That's not what statistics is for; it's not to reflect reality but to predict the most likely outcome, probability, etc. Because math cannot capture reality perfectly, we have to use chaos theory and statistics, and beyond. Statistics cannot tell you for sure something will happen or how or when it will happen.

Beyond Earth is a bigger conundrum. Understanding what happens to gravity around black holes using our current concepts of math is a real struggle. Newton breaks down, and there's more thought the Einstein will too.
 
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That's not what statistics is for; it's not to reflect reality but to predict the most likely outcome. Because math cannot capture reality perfectly, we have to use chaos theory and statistics.

Statistics were literally invented in order to extract regularity and central tendency from variability. What do you think is the point of a mean, a mode, or a median? Also, in what sense is statistics not a branch of mathematics?

You are invoking chaos theory to explain why you find it difficult to describe your patient load. I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.
 
Statistics were literally invented in order to extract regularity and central tendency from variability. What do you think is the point of a mean, a mode, or a median? Also, in what sense is statistics not a branch of mathematics?

You are invoking chaos theory to explain why you find it difficult to describe your patient load. I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

I'm sure deep down we agree, but are using words to fight differences just to fight. You know I know what statistics is for. I think you know as well. So I'm going to stop here because it's becoming fruitless and, frankly, ridiculous.
 
I have friends who are doing insurance prior auth which seems to be a good gig for working from home. Some are flipping houses etc. I also know people who are doing very well in the stock market (actively investing, would make about the same as an attending salary if they watched the stocks full time, etc).

For those with a non-physician spouse that isn’t earning a high income already, I highly recommend real estate. That’s our next venture. There are legal ways to reduce gross taxable income through depreciation via real estate professional status.
 
People are just jealous that someone is making a lot more money than them...

That sort of thinking doesn’t really apply to psychiatry, all of us could be making more money within a month if we wanted to. It’s not like folks have secret amazing setups, anyone not making more money is intentionally choosing to turn it down based on their other priorities. There is a lot more than money to consider when taking a job.
 
That sort of thinking doesn’t really apply to psychiatry, all of us could be making more money within a month if we wanted to. It’s not like folks have secret amazing setups, anyone not making more money is intentionally choosing to turn it down based on their other priorities. There is a lot more than money to consider when taking a job.
Like this is unique to psych...
 
Physician cannibalism aside, some of the comments on this thread about Med students seeing this are ridiculous. Yes I hope Med students read this and feel like they can achieve financial independence through medicine. Are you kidding me? They go through 8 years of school and hundreds of thousands in debt for the “privilege” to practice medicine.

Medicine is a pyramid scheme and moreover, it is big business, and there are people less educated than you making hand over fist on your grunt work. You are a pawn in a broken system, and you should take what little you can get. Everyone has their own morals, but I find it particular interesting psychiatrists are wagging fingers at their colleagues for having short visits.

This is a field that before only 30 years ago, were mutilating people. There are snake oil salesman’s in this field spending HOURS on non-evidence based “care”.

Where I’m at, the pay is 235/hr for inpatient work. If you work 60hrs /week x 48 weeks that’s 675k/year. Anyone can work that gruelingly for a few years out of residency and pay off their loans. There’s other jobs like that within an hour of most places a resident would want to live, and I suspect they will only increase as demand does.
 
Physician cannibalism aside, some of the comments on this thread about Med students seeing this are ridiculous. Yes I hope Med students read this and feel like they can achieve financial independence through medicine. Are you kidding me? They go through 8 years of school and hundreds of thousands in debt for the “privilege” to practice medicine.

Medicine is a pyramid scheme and moreover, it is big business, and there are people less educated than you making hand over fist on your grunt work. You are a pawn in a broken system, and you should take what little you can get. Everyone has their own morals, but I find it particular interesting psychiatrists are wagging fingers at their colleagues for having short visits.

This is a field that before only 30 years ago, were mutilating people. There are snake oil salesman’s in this field spending HOURS on non-evidence based “care”.

Where I’m at, the pay is 235/hr for inpatient work. If you work 60hrs /week x 48 weeks that’s 675k/year. Anyone can work that gruelingly for a few years out of residency and pay off their loans. There’s other jobs like that within an hour of most places a resident would want to live, and I suspect they will only increase as demand does.

They pay u per hour for inpatient work? Seems odd
 
Or people have higher ethical standards and won't subject themselves to providing poor care for a quick buck. YMMV.
You guys/gals did not even ask the poster what kind of setting allows him/her to see patients in 15 minutes. You guys/gals make the assumption that the poster is providing substandard care because he/she is only spending 15 mins with patients...

I worked with one particular resident that always left the hospital early and he is one of the top residents in my class according to the attendings. Some people are just efficient.
 
You guys/gals did not even ask the poster what kind of setting allows him/her to see patients in 15 minutes. You guys/gals make the assumption that the poster is providing substandard care because he/she is only spending 15 mins with patients...

I worked with one particular resident that always left the hospital early and he is one of the top residents in my class according to the attendings. Some people are just efficient.

We know what kind of job he works. A mix of acute patients and follows-ups with the occasional intake, where you can take as long as you want or as little time as you want is inpatient. Most of us are familiar with this field and even with the types of jobs the poster is talking about because they land in our inbox too. Also, leaving the hospital early does not equal bad resident or bad doctor. That isn't close to being the point.
 
We know what kind of job he works. A mix of acute patients and follows-ups with the occasional intake, where you can take as long as you want or as little time as you want is inpatient. Most of us are familiar with this field and even with the types of jobs the poster is talking about because they land in our inbox too. Also, leaving the hospital early does not equal bad resident or bad doctor. That isn't close to being the point.
I don't know the ins and out of psychiatry since I am not a psychiatrist. I guess you might be right.
 
For those with a non-physician spouse that isn’t earning a high income already, I highly recommend real estate. That’s our next venture. There are legal ways to reduce gross taxable income through depreciation via real estate professional status.

Are you talking about direct mgmt., or buying and having a mgmt company take care of things? This is actually becoming more lucratrive, at least in my area. As before you were usually renting to middle class or lower SES, more and more upper middle class families are renting longer, and if you own a rental in that bracket, you can generally squeeze a much higher margin. Something I'm looking to get back into, owned a rental for a long time, but was in another state and no longer felt like managing from afar.
 
Are you talking about direct mgmt., or buying and having a mgmt company take care of things? This is actually becoming more lucratrive, at least in my area. As before you were usually renting to middle class or lower SES, more and more upper middle class families are renting longer, and if you own a rental in that bracket, you can generally squeeze a much higher margin. Something I'm looking to get back into, owned a rental for a long time, but was in another state and no longer felt like managing from afar.

The most tax benefits come with active management which includes 51%+ of working hours which total 750+.
 
The most tax benefits come with active management which includes 51%+ of working hours which total 750+.

Yeah, there's active participation in management and material participation in management. It's somewhat hard to qualify for material, unless you own several properties under a business umbrella, but very easy to qualify for active participation tax benefits.
 
The most tax benefits come with active management which includes 51%+ of working hours which total 750+.

Also, did the rules change? I thought material participation was 500+hours.

Edit: Ah, we were talking about different rules, minimum to qualify as a real estate professional vs. ability to deduct certain kinds of losses for an owner who is not a real estate professional.
 
Also, did the rules change? I thought material participation was 500+hours.

Edit: Ah, we were talking about different rules, minimum to qualify as a real estate professional vs. ability to deduct certain kinds of losses for an owner who is not a real estate professional.

Sorry, may not have all the lingo down yet. 750 hours in real estate in which 500 must be material participation.
 
Sorry, may not have all the lingo down yet. 750 hours in real estate in which 500 must be material participation.

Yeah, that is to qualify as a real estate professional in the ownership and management, good tax benefits there, but most people can't get that amount of time, or their property doesn't need that amount of time. After that, it's up to whether or not you are active in management or completely passive. It's pretty easy to meet the requirements for active management, even if there is a management company in the picture.
 
Or it's a vocal majority who feel that seeing 25 patients in 3-4 hours is just ****ty care.

In some situations, I would agree. I don't even know where you are getting the numbers from but I don't remember @Shufflin quoting those numbers. You can't just broadly paint that he offers bad care without seeing the results. And on the other hand, if he wasn't treating patients, maybe they would get no care (or get care from an NP) which could be even worse.

So you’ve decided what the majority opinion is. Also you’ve discouraged the minority from sharing their opinions because they’re not in line with your thinking. They are “vocal” and “mobbing” you by sharing their thoughts and you’re feeling “icy” and uncomfortable with sharing your own opinions. This is now “boring” because you’re seeing too many dissenting viewpoints. This is medicine. We should always be questioning, sharing ideas and arguing to make things better.

You're jumping to conclusions about things that were never typed. Take a deep breath and drink some soy milk. Things will be ok.
 
In some situations, I would agree. I don't even know where you are getting the numbers from but I don't remember @Shufflin quoting those numbers. You can't just broadly paint that he offers bad care without seeing the results. And on the other hand, if he wasn't treating patients, maybe they would get no care (or get care from an NP) which could be even worse.

You're jumping to conclusions about things that were never typed. Take a deep breath and drink some soy milk. Things will be ok.

The numbers come from the original post, which has since been edited.
 
250-300 is a lot of money for someone used to making 50k and for most trying to make significantly more will come with its own cost that cannot be quantified. 18k a month after tax (300k married salary in a state with income tax) if you were not able to have any deductions or roughly that with bennies as an employeed model. If you lived off 5k a month almost double your lifestyle in residency that leaves you with 156k you could put towards loans in 1 year.

I paid off my loans through moonlighting in residency. I don't understand why others don't do that even if its a portion and knock the remaining out in the first 3 years of attending life.

so this thread as devolved a bit, but i want to add another vote for moonlighting, as a PGY4, I've also been able to pay off my loans with moonlighting over the last year. the gigs are often overnight at county hospitals with 1-2 admissions/night and I almost always get 6+ hours of sleep/night. And I'm not rounding on droves of patients per day. So there are good moonlighting gigs out there, but it takes some digging to find them.
 
so this thread as devolved a bit, but i want to add another vote for moonlighting, as a PGY4, I've also been able to pay off my loans with moonlighting over the last year. the gigs are often overnight at county hospitals with 1-2 admissions/night and I almost always get 6+ hours of sleep/night. And I'm not rounding on droves of patients per day. So there are good moonlighting gigs out there, but it takes some digging to find them.

Lol but how much do you make..
 
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