Finding a Doctoral Program

[ASparrow]

Hello, I am graduating (with honers) with a BA in psychology this Dec. and I am looking for a 4 year online accredited program in which to achieve my PsyD. Does anyone have any advice as to good programs? Accelerated would be awesome as I am 48 years old, though I don't think such a thing yet exists. I am in MN. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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[Temperance]

Don't do an online program.

 

[ASparrow]

Don't do an online program.

Oh? Why not?

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Oh? Why not?

There is no way to half-ass this degree (i.e., online and/or accelerated) and then be a competent clinician/researcher. There's a reason why most programs are 5-6 years (in fact, most students at my program graduated in 7 years). Also, are you willing to pay the equivalent of a mortgage every month for the rest of your life to cover the loans you'll need for these programs?

Have you considered looking into MSW programs? There are good ones in Minnesota. You can be licensed after 3 years, and work in private practice, hospitals, group practices, schools, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

What exactly are you looking to do when it's all said and done, and what is your tolerance for crippling debt?

 

[albatross_at_crossroads]

What exactly are you looking to do when it's all said and done, and what is your tolerance for crippling debt?

This. What do you hope to do with the degree?
An online program will get you basically nowhere. Considering you age, getting into a good program might take a couple of years more, so you are looking at graduating at 55-57. I'm not saying you can't have a productive career after that, but to get there you must have a good plan, good support and patience to bear through all the hoops. Since you are considering an online program, I'm guessing you have some limitations already (in regard to location, work, family or other constraints). Even if you already have the financial means to self-fund a degree, it's important to also consider whether that degree will get you what you want after all.

 

[R. Matey]

If you're only interested in being a psychotherapist, I suggest a master's degree as you can accomplish this aim in around four to five years counting the post-master's supervision requirement. Successful master's degree practitioners specialize during their post-master's hours in evidenced based practices for a specific range of issues. MSWs tend to fair better job and opportunity wise than LPCs/LMFTs given historical advantages, but either degree will get you there in the end.

 

[Temperance]

A doctoral program is not a harder version of college. While there are classes, they are one of the smallest parts of training, unlike college where coursework was one of the largest components. In an online program, you miss out on the incidental aspects of professional development that are prevalent in a face-to-face program, like casual discussions of cases or research ideas with peers and supervisors or frankly being immersed in an environment where you're constantly exposed to ideas and practicing psychology. Some may argue that you can still get this in an online program through scheduled, once- or twice-yearly meetings or through attending conferences, but there is a major difference between doing this sometimes and doing this all the time for 40-80 hours a week.

I appreciate that attending a face-to-face program can be difficult for a returning student, especially if they have career or family obligations. However, this does not mean that one should sacrifice quality of training, as that would affect the quality of care one will provide for one's patients. If attending face-to-face or full-time is an issue and you are not interested in the work that only licensed psychologists can do (e.g. assessment), then there are other options; other posters have made some suggestions that would not require nearly as many sacrifices from you as a doctoral program would, financially or otherwise.

 

[jdawg2017]

I think the MSW programs would make the most sense. There are some reputable MSW online programs that maintain the same rigor as the in-person components (for example, I have a good friend in New York who attends the BU Online MSW program). It is not the same as an in-person program for the reasons stated by posters above, but if you really have no flexibility for in-person instruction, it may be one of the better options. The program can work with clinical practica sites in your region (hopefully you are more urban) for your foundational and advanced clinical placements.

You would not be able to even finish a PsyD program, online or not, in 4 years, because to complete a PsyD or PhD in clinical psychology you need to complete 1 year of internship, which almost certainly should be accredited and may well to require you to move somewhere for the 1 year of training.

If therapy is your main goal, the MSW really is the better (and much cheaper/not as long) way to get there. I would echo other posters to think about what is really is that you want to "do" at the end of the day after all training is done.

EDIT: I also want to say that even though some online programs are good, you will almost certainly still face some stigma if people know your graduate training happened online. There can be good online training, but if you think about the question "How would I feel if my therapist/physician got online training?" and you have an adverse reaction, then you might understand why some people with online training face a HUGE uphill battle professionally at the outset of their career.

 

[ASparrow]

I really appreciate the feed back, it is helping me learn about what I need to do and how to do it. My career goal is to become a practicing therapist. It seems like the MSW is the way to go as I can do that at the university here in Duluth: and 2 years is more attractive than 4-6 when you are a 48 year old former welder. The questions that remain are, is there a big drop in earning potential in choosing MSW as opposed to a PsyD? Also, I think that, to be come a practicing therapist, I would need a Masters in Social Work "Clinical?" Thank you all for the guidance.

 

[summerbabe]

The questions that remain are, is there a big drop in earning potential in choosing MSW as opposed to a PsyD? Also, I think that, to be come a practicing therapist, I would need a Masters in Social Work "Clinical?" Thank you all for the guidance.

It will depend on what you want to do and your business acumen. There are social workers making as little as low 30s/yr doing really hard community mental health work and others who make much more than the average clinical psychologist (think private practice with affluent self pay patients). However, if you want to be a W2 employee, you’d make less than a psychologist in that same setting.

Think about factors such as whether you want to work for somebody else (including if you need employer based health care), what type of therapy you want to do, if you want to/can run a small business well, etc.

Social workers all graduate with a MSW and there is additional post-graduation supervised clinical hours and other requirements depending on your state to become a LCSW and be able to do clinical work like therapy. SW grad programs usually offer ‘tracks’ which can include a clinical track, which means you’ll get more exposure/practicums in that focus area during school (but will still need to do post-grad work for licensure). Good luck!

 

[WisNeuro]

I really appreciate the feed back, it is helping me learn about what I need to do and how to do it. My career goal is to become a practicing therapist. It seems like the MSW is the way to go as I can do that at the university here in Duluth: and 2 years is more attractive than 4-6 when you are a 48 year old former welder. The questions that remain are, is there a big drop in earning potential in choosing MSW as opposed to a PsyD? Also, I think that, to be come a practicing therapist, I would need a Masters in Social Work "Clinical?" Thank you all for the guidance.

The potential difference in revenue between the two is substantially lower than the extra years of deferred income and crushing debt from most PsyDs.

 

[Lukewarm Counselor]

Greetings, @ASparrow. First, welcome to this forum.

My first question was already asked (and answered): what do you wish to do with a degree in MH?

As your principal goal is to become a practicing psychotherapist, I would echo the advice of other commenters regarding considering the master's route. I also came from a blue-collar career and made a career change to this field. I currently work as a licensed, master's level counselor.

First, I encourage you to become familiar with the differences between master (mid) level clinicians and our doctoral-level counterparts. While a number of differences exist, psychologists are more robustly trained in the area of assessment. They also receive more training overall, obviously. But as far as offering psychotherapy, mid-level clinicians are generally considered by most as adequately trained. Bear in mind that mid-levels must continue their education in specific therapeutic modalities after graduation and they must continue our supervised training for another few years.

Doctoral-level clinicians are also more heavily trained in producing new research. (Research is a skill all on its own!) While mid-level clinicians generally consume this research and put it into daily practice. Also, if a career in academia as an associate professor is on your to-do list, then a doctoral degree (usually Ph.D.) is generally considered a prerequisite. Mid-levels often still teach as adjuncts at community colleges or some other undergraduate colleges, but this is usually done as a side hustle and not so much as a career move.

Next, I encourage you to familiarize yourself with the differences between a counselor and a clinical social worker. And again, contrast these differences with your career goals. Counseling generally offers more direct clinical training but has a narrower career scope. The MSW offers a broader general training but has a unified licensure standard and offers more career opportunities. The MSW is also able to bill Medicare while counselors cannot do this in many/most cases. So if your career plans involve working with the elderly or disabled, this is information you need to know now.

Now, onto the more controversial portion of this reply: online training

Folks on this forum consistently advise against this educational delivery method for very good reasons. Many of these programs are indeed predatory and charge outrageous amounts of money. Us mid-levels (or even doctoral-levels) simply do not make enough money in this field to justify the price tags! If you borrow $80k for this schooling, be prepared to spend $800-1000 monthly in your loan repayment. The average reported monthly salary for mid-levels tends to fall between $40-50k annually (BLS). But I HIGHLY encourage you to do market and labor research for the specific region in which you plan to practice.

Also, keep in mind some regions are highly oversaturated with clinicians. So jobs are often competitive. Even doctoral-level clinicians with years of experience often report having to compete for jobs. So, a mid-level with an online degree often has an impossible time trying to stand out.

We live in a credential-driven society. So long as this is the case, we will always see credential-granting institutions offering/promising shortcuts to these credentials at the expense of students and to the profession/field as a whole. So...BUYER BEWARE! Do. The. Math. First!

Whether we like it or note, online training is here and is here to stay. As some others notes, there are some decent programs out there (in my opinion) (such as the MSW program here at Boise State University in Idaho). But there are still some big differences in the training these students receive compared with their B/M (in-person) counterparts. The more reputable programs will have limited seats available in a program (I believe BSU's program has just 15 per year and has a student/faculty ratio of about 1:4) whereas the predatory schools have an unlimited number of seats and have a student/faculty ratio closer to 1:30. Programs such as Capalla or CSPP admit anyone that meets the minimum requirements and will just hire on more adjunct faculty if needed. (These additional faculty may or may not have an established reputation yet themselves!) (Hint: these same schools often use their own doctoral students as free/cheap labor to teach the master's students! = even more profit for the institution.)

The challenge with online training (or any training really) is that we do not know what we do not know at the front end of our training. So, if an online program leaves out critical components (such as research training, faculty mentorship, or quality clinical supervision), then we have no way to gauge this during our training experience. We must simply trust the program we are investing ourselves in.

So, a student really has no way of knowing/gauging their quality of training until they are in the clinical training phase (or even later). At this point, it is simply too late. (And oftentimes it results in severe harm to the client/patients!)

Moral of this story:

1) Learn the differences between mid and doctoral-level credentials and reflect/contrast this with your career goals.
2) Do your due diligence and market research. Do. The. Math. Before. Enrolling!
3) If you decide to attend school online, choose a reputable program! At a bare minimum, demand CACREP accreditation if going the counseling route. (While CACREP does not demonstrate any meaningful outcomes advantage in quality, it will at least provide you with some employment advantages later on in your career.)

I do not say these things to discourage you. But I do believe people deserve to make informed decisions when investing tens of thousands of dollars and years of their lives. I know practitioners who attended online schooling who are now leaders in the field. But I also know online schooling interns who were fired from their internships due to incompetence. (The latter is more frequent.) Online schooling can be done. But it is a very tricky business. And we live in a world where one group of people want/need the credentials, where the credential-granters want the profit. Online schools simply cannot fully serve their role as gatekeepers, IMO. Instead, they rely on the field supervisors who, may or may not be qualified themselves, or who may or may not live up to this role. (To be a good clinician, we MUST be willing to submit to our gatekeepers' authority and experience. I would never want to practice psychotherapy unless I was properly screened and vetted by quality faculty over time.)

I wish you the very best whichever path you choose, my friend. Continue doing your due diligence. And again, WELCOME!!

Edit/addition: Also, CONGRATULATIONS on earning your bachelor's degree! This is HUGE! (Especially earning it later in life!) Stop whatever you are doing right now, stand up, and take a bow! #Rockstar!