PhD/PsyD Fired from VA

[biscuitsbiscuits]

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Something that is left off a CV but is on the application looks mighty weird to me as someone interviewing a potential hire.

Yes, that's what I'm saying the employer will pick up on and ask about. Then you talk about it because it is a weird situation- one that is better to have a conversation about than just summarize in a sentence or two.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yes, that's what I'm saying the employer will pick up on and ask about. Then you talk about it because it is a weird situation- one that is better to have a conversation about than just summarize in a sentence or two.

The thing is, we're going to check references and past job supervisors based on the application. So, I'm going to have that information first, and not seeing it on the CV looks to me like the person is hoping I don't notice and trying to hide it. Fair or not, it's a bad first impression that they're going to have to make up for.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

The thing is, we're going to check references and past job supervisors based on the application. So, I'm going to have that information first, and not seeing it on the CV looks to me like the person is hoping I don't notice and trying to hide it. Fair or not, it's a bad first impression that they're going to have to make up for.

I don't think we really disagree that much, we might just be in the weeds.

Do you suggest that the person write directly on the CV/resume that they were terminated from the position? Or just list the job with dates of employment (one option I suggested earlier)?

As a potential employer, how would you advise X on improving chances of being hired after a situation like this?

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't think we really disagree that much, we might just be in the weeds.

Do you suggest that the person write directly on the CV/resume that they were terminated from the position? Or just list the job with dates of employment (one option I suggested earlier)?

As a potential employer, how would you advise X on improving chances of being hired after a situation like this?

I would simply list the position and the dates I was there. In that situation, I'd litigate the wrongful termination so that I had documentation regarding the fact that the termination had nothing to do with my performance, if that is what actually happened. If they are unwilling to do so, they'll likely have to accept whatever position they can get with that red flag on their record, try and establish a couple years minimum at a new position to show a track record, and then hope that future employers will overlook that past red flag and focus on more recent performance. Or, they could always try their hand at PP.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As others mentioned, talking with an employment lawyer might be a good step. Even if it's not possible to litigate (e.g., RE: wrongful termination), the lawyer could provide some information on what the ex-employer would and would not be able/required to say about the situation when contacted in the future.

If it were me, I'd include it on my CV with dates of employment and job responsibilities. Others might disagree, but I wouldn't say a person is obligated to explicitly spell out, "I was fired." After all, I'm not sure about other folks, but I don't include the reason I've left any of my past jobs on my CV.

But of course, as others have said, being forthright on any application documents asking such questions is a necessity. Then, when reviewing the app, the hiring folks can see that the position was listed on the CV. In my mind, that would reflect positively on the applicant and their attempts to remain transparent.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I would list it as well, but just dates and responsibilities.

 

[psych.meout]

Again, just talking about the resume as one part of an entire application "package." I don't think anyone is advocating fraud or deception. It needs to be disclosed. I just don't think the resume is necessarily the place to do that. Have you ever seen a resume/CV that actually had "I was terminated from this job" or "I was straight-up terrible at this job" written under a job description? It'll come out through references (or lack thereof), work samples, or through the interview. I think maybe my thoughts about the resume are being extended to an entire career.

I don't have time to go back and read through this thread again, but what I understand is that X called someone out on something he/she believed was unethical and was fired as a result, possibly because it is easier to fire someone during the probationary period. I don't know anything about the VA, but I have known many companies to fire people during probationary periods (or hire people as contractors before hiring FT employees to test "fit"), regardless of performance, if personalities clash. I don't know the entire situation here. BUT if it is a situation like that, which has little or nothing to do with patient care (or in fact may have actually improved patient care but just pissed someone off?), I think honest efforts at reputation management (e.g. minimizing this position on the resume so they can talk about it more during an interview) are appropriate.

Either way, someone had a bad experience as a first job out of grad school. This person is trying to figure out how to pick themselves up honestly and carry on. I think, unless there's something really terrible we don't know about, that is an entirely acceptable thing to do.

You're not understanding some of the arguments being made here. No one is saying you should write that you were fired on your CV. What's being debated is that some people are advising OP's friend to just leave the position off of their CV entirely under the justification that it wasn't held for very long. Other people are disagreeing, arguing that this is a lie of omission (especially as this justification would transparently be lying to themselves as well) and therefore deceptive. The latter group is just stating that you need to document the position in the appropriate sections of employment applications and CVs, e.g., organization, title, dates, etc., and then honestly discuss it with interviewers should it come up.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

No one is saying you should write that you were fired on your CV.

I thought you were saying that, but maybe I misunderstood:

Would they still hire you if they saw your firing on your resume? If not, then it very much is deception.

I understand the arguments. And I agree with those above that putting the job on the CV/resume with dates of employment is probably the best move in this case. However, leaving something off a CV is not necessarily deceptive or fraudulent. I had a PT gig as a freelance proofreader for about six months a couple of years ago, but I do not include this on my CV because it's hardly worth mentioning. Not lying about it, but it's not CV worthy. No one would fire me if they found out that I had this job. That's all people are saying about leaving off jobs that don't last more than a few months or aren't relevant to the current position. It's a common thing.

What is sounding alarms here is the fact that the person was terminated from a clinical position and, I assume, would like to obtain a new clinical position at some point. I agree that that makes it more complicated. What I would like to know is, how do you put yourself in the best light after something like this? How do you recover? I am asking when is the best time to mention it, not should a person mention it. I'm just trying to add some nuance. It doesn't sound like this situation is straightforward. It's interesting to me.

Edit: I reread the OP and saw that X had the position for about a year. Somehow (from a different post I guess?) I thought we were talking about 3-4 months. I would not suggest leaving a year-long position off a CV.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

@biscuitsbiscuits

What is your professional field? PT=Physical therapy? I am curious if the field has an ethics code or professional guideline that speak to this at all? It is interesting to me too.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

@biscuitsbiscuits

What is your professional field? PT=Physical therapy? I am curious if the field has an ethics code or professional guideline that speak to this at all? It is interesting to me too.

Sorry to be unclear. I said PT referring to part-time. I'm a current grad student but my previous experience (8 years) is in biotech.

 

[Pragma]

Yeah leaving it off of the CV would be a red flag for me. Just list the dates and deal with questions if you get a job interview. There’s a lot of potential reasons that someone wouldn’t stay somewhere for very long.

 

[foreverbull]

Speaking of the those special whistleblower protections for VA employees when reporting misconduct/ethical violations, it doesn't sound like you're really protected after all, at least in some VAs. This comes as no surprise to me, but I thought it was interesting and wanted to pass it along since this came up in this thread.