First job

[QClinician]

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So i was offered two full time jobs for after graduation, one entry level position at a very good, well known school and one more advanced position at a relatively unknown school. any opinions on if the reputation of the school is important for future career opportunities?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

First job as.....?

If it is academia, are they both tenure track? If it is more clinical, do you have non-compete clauses for outside work? You'll need to be much more specific before anyone can attempt to answer your question.

 

[graduatingsoon]

So i was offered two full time jobs for after graduation, one entry level position at a very good, well known school and one more advanced position at a relatively unknown school. any opinions on if the reputation of the school is important for future career opportunities?

Hey there,

Can you also post salary ranges you were offered and other benefits? Are these tenure track positions or counseling center position at a university?

Thanks!

 

[QClinician]

University counseling position jobs.

staff position, better school. low 40s

director position at an unknown school with no center at all, mid 50s

 

[roubs]

University counseling position jobs.

staff position, better school. low 40s

director position at an unknown school with no center at all, mid 50s

If they don't have a center, what would you be director of? Making a center happen?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

University counseling position jobs.

staff position, better school. low 40s

director position at an unknown school with no center at all, mid 50s

Wow...that is depressing. I make that as a fellow, and I feel like I am underpaid. 😱 Hopefully the hours and perks are amazing.

 

[2012PhD]

University counseling position jobs.

staff position, better school. low 40s

director position at an unknown school with no center at all, mid 50s

i just came upon this post. Congrats on getting a job!

The staff position at a counseling center seems like a low salary if you are licensed. The problem with counseling centers is that the salary increases are minimal each year (like 1-2%) from what i've heard at some centers. If you aren't licensed yet, will they bump you up to a more competitive salary once you get the licensure?

I was confused because how can one be a counseling center director without a center? I don't think the school would matter much for university counseling center positions (not like academia). Are you comfortable taking on a director position as your first job? Can you have a joint appointment as a teaching faculty as well (some counseling centers offer this)?

 

[QClinician]

yeah, developing a center. no, joint appointment options.

is this low salary? the postdoc positions in the city pay 19,000 to 36,000 in counseling centers. research is a different bag of worms

 

[aequitasveritas]

yeah, developing a center. no, joint appointment options.

is this low salary? the postdoc positions in the city pay 19,000 to 36,000 in counseling centers. research is a different bag of worms

For post doc the salaries are not bad. For a licensed psychologist the are dismal.

However, how could this be a post doc for you if they want you to be a director?

 

[edieb]

For post doc the salaries are not bad. For a licensed psychologist the are dismal.

However, how could this be a post doc for you if they want you to be a director?

Sometimes I feel that people shut out reality...people, these are actually good to decent salaries for a psychologist

 

[2012PhD]

Sometimes I feel that people shut out reality...people, these are actually good to decent salaries for a psychologist

Sure, i agree overall. If the OP is in NYC or CA though, these salaries are low and pretty tough to live on as an adult.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Sometimes I feel that people shut out reality...people, these are actually good to decent salaries for a psychologist

Reality is that I make more than that as a psychological assistant.

I'm on track to make $136,000 in my first yr of licensure based on what I'm pulling in now (68) while splitting fees with my supervisor.

I don't know a psychologist in private practice at least who is making under 90
The reason is probably that the ones who are not good enough to pull the figures are no longer practicing.

50k... is dismal

 

[2012PhD]

Reality is that I make more than that as a psychological assistant.

I'm on track to make $136,000 in my first yr of licensure based on what I'm pulling in now (68) while splitting fees with my supervisor.

I don't know a psychologist in private practice at least who is making under 90
The reason is probably that the ones who are not good enough to pull the figures are no longer practicing.

50k... is dismal

Wow, that's pretty awesome. I only know psych. assistants that had 5-7 clients per week and weren't even able to make 30K because they were working with private practitioners that didn't get referals. You have to work in a well-known place. You are doing better than most. On the east coast, psych assistants can't usually survive from the people i've talked to.

I bet you work in an already established place, not a private practice. If a group practice is very well-know they will get a ton of referrals. Just curious? Also, how do you earn 136,000 taking insurance? I am assuming you take insurance? If insurance companies typically reimburse at $70 per head, there is no way one can make over 100K. You are not going to see 50-60 clients per week.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I bet you work in an already established place, not a private practice. If a group practice is very well-know they will get a ton of referrals. Just curious? Also, how do you earn 136,000 taking insurance? I am assuming you take insurance? If insurance companies typically reimburse at $70 per head, there is no way one can make over 100K. You are not going to see 50-60 clients per week.

I believe s/he does assessment work, so they will be billing 5-10+ hours (assessment + report writing) per patient referral. If you can negoiate a competitive split, then a good wage can be had. I'm not sure the psych tech reimbursement rate for insurance, though I'm guessing they are private pay because that is far more lucrative.

 

[2012PhD]

University counseling position jobs.

staff position, better school. low 40s

director position at an unknown school with no center at all, mid 50s

I think sometimes people on this board also forget about the current job market for psychologists. Many people completing Apa internships these days even are not able to find a job/post-doc in the field at all because hospitals and counseling centers are getting rid of post-doc positions and there are state-wide hiring freezes at hospitals. Last year, the hospital that I externed at, only 3/4 of the 6 interns had jobs/post-docs by the time internship ended---APA internship site in a big city. I have seen 20K post-docs at counseling centers get eliminated due to budget cuts.

Qclinician, you are one of the fortunate ones who got two job offers. I personally think you should take the position that provides you with the best training, supervision, and promotion potential regardless of the "name" of the counseling center. Even though the salary seems low to me initially, i think its the market price right now for counseling centers and even higher than counseling center post-docs that can pay 20-25K. Make sure you can get your hours either way and get promoted once you get the licensure thing.

 

[2012PhD]

yeah, developing a center. no, joint appointment options.

is this low salary? the postdoc positions in the city pay 19,000 to 36,000 in counseling centers. research is a different bag of worms

By "the city" do you mean NYC--the most expensive city in the U.S.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Wow, that's pretty awesome. I only know psych. assistants that had 5-7 clients per week and weren't even able to make 30K because they were working with private practitioners that didn't get referals. You have to work in a well-known place. You are doing better than most. On the east coast, psych assistants can't usually survive from the people i've talked to.

I bet you work in an already established place, not a private practice. If a group practice is very well-know they will get a ton of referrals. Just curious? Also, how do you earn 136,000 taking insurance? I am assuming you take insurance? If insurance companies typically reimburse at $70 per head, there is no way one can make over 100K. You are not going to see 50-60 clients per week.

I actually do mostly analytic therapy and bill through insurances with about 8 cash pay clients out of 30. I have cash-pay as well as insurance assessments but I'm drifint toward only cash pay assessments.

Insurance reimbursements vary. Even medi-medi (medicare plus medical) pays $150 for an intake...but then only 50 frickin frackin bucks from then on. Medicare patients have a $45 copay with over 40 sessions and unlimited if parity. This makes their payment each week $95 (50 from medicare and 45 cash).
Most private insurances pay somewhere from 70-100 and it varies with the averahe being around 85 or so.
When insurances run out most of my patients stay with me and pay cash. It's long term (for most), psychodynamic (trained at an institute...not just a label).

Why do I make so much? Well, my supervisor is very hooked in and popular so I get at least 2 referrals a week. During gras school I saw 16-20 patients a week. Now I see 30 plus with a side job also to accrue my hours. Point: I work really, really hard and that's just how it's got to be done.

 

[stigmata]

Sometimes I feel that people shut out reality...people, these are actually good to decent salaries for a psychologist

Ha ha.....

 

[2012PhD]

I actually do mostly analytic therapy and bill through insurances with about 8 cash pay clients out of 30. I have cash-pay as well as insurance assessments but I'm drifint toward only cash pay assessments.

Insurance reimbursements vary. Even medi-medi (medicare plus medical) pays $150 for an intake...but then only 50 frickin frackin bucks from then on. Medicare patients have a $45 copay with over 40 sessions and unlimited if parity. This makes their payment each week $95 (50 from medicare and 45 cash).
Most private insurances pay somewhere from 70-100 and it varies with the averahe being around 85 or so.
When insurances run out most of my patients stay with me and pay cash. It's long term (for most), psychodynamic (trained at an institute...not just a label).

Why do I make so much? Well, my supervisor is very hooked in and popular so I get at least 2 referrals a week. During gras school I saw 16-20 patients a week. Now I see 30 plus with a side job also to accrue my hours. Point: I work really, really hard and that's just how it's got to be done.

2 referrals per week is more than most. I worked at a well-known group practice and i never got more than 1 intake per month. It took 1-2 years for people to get 20 plus patients.

That's great. I think if you are resourceful, a good clinician, and are willing to work long hours, then good money can be made. You probably have to put in 60 hour weeks and work late at night, but its better than making 20K at a freakin post-doc these days. 25 patients per week would be my max personally--i don't have the stamina to see more.

One quick question, if you see 30+ patients per week, why do you need an additional job to accrue hours? Can you count report writing, notes, phone calls as part of your hours for licensure in California since you are clearly putting in more than 40 hours per week? They don't have to all be face to face hours from what i've heard.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ha ha.....

My thoughts exactly.

You will make only as much as you can secure. If someone is willing to take a job at 40k, then guess what....that is what they get. Obviously there are other factors at play, but probably the biggest influence on salary (assuming APA-acred. program at a minimum) is the psychologist. I often ask people, "Did you accept their first offer?"..and they look at me like I have 4 heads. While there is competition for a spot, if a place is willing to make you an offer, they are most likely willing to pay a little bit more for you. Once you get in at a place, unless they have production bonuses or similar, your yearly increase barring promotion will be miniscule. Your "first job" can be a screwing if you don't watch yourself.

 

[2012PhD]

My thoughts exactly.

You will make only as much as you can secure. If someone is willing to take a job at 40k, then guess what....that is what they get. Obviously there are other factors at play, but probably the biggest influence on salary (assuming APA-acred. program at a minimum) is the psychologist. I often ask people, "Did you accept their first offer?"..and they look at me like I have 4 heads. While there is competition for a spot, if a place is willing to make you an offer, they are most likely willing to pay a little bit more for you. Once you get in at a place, unless they have production bonuses or similar, your yearly increase barring promotion will be miniscule. Your "first job" can be a screwing if you don't watch yourself.

People should always attempt to negotiate a job offer. The problem with starting with 30 or 40K is that if the salary only increases 1-2% per year, you are stuck earning poverty wages even after 20 years. Counseling centers tend to have very small increases each year that are miniscule and don't even keep up with inflation.

My question is though. Aren't salaries at VA's and hospitals pretty much set in stone? Post-doc at VA seems pretty set, no? Then you can start at a certain GS level that depends on your experience? Is there more flexibility with where you start even on the GS scale?

 

[aequitasveritas]

2 referrals per week is more than most. I worked at a well-known group practice and i never got more than 1 intake per month. It took 1-2 years for people to get 20 plus patients.

That's great. I think if you are resourceful, a good clinician, and are willing to work long hours, then good money can be made. You probably have to put in 60 hour weeks and work late at night, but its better than making 20K at a freakin post-doc these days. 25 patients per week would be my max personally--i don't have the stamina to see more.

One quick question, if you see 30+ patients per week, why do you need an additional job to accrue hours? Can you count report writing, notes, phone calls as part of your hours for licensure in California since you are clearly putting in more than 40 hours per week? They don't have to all be face to face hours from what i've heard.

I decided to take an additional position in case client load fluctuates. Also, to get 44 hours, my supervisor would have to give 4.4 hours of supervision...that's alot for him to take out of his patient load. I'm only there for 35 hours a week. I really don't spend much time doing superflous stuff...I get in and get out, writing prog notes in a matter of minutes and the real notes in an undisclosed location on my encripted laptop! haha.

 

[2012PhD]

I decided to take an additional position in case client load fluctuates. Also, to get 44 hours, my supervisor would have to give 4.4 hours of supervision...that's alot for him to take out of his patient load. I'm only there for 35 hours a week. I really don't spend much time doing superflous stuff...I get in and get out, writing prog notes in a matter of minutes and the real notes in an undisclosed location on my encripted laptop! haha.

Licensure in California requires only 1500 hours after internship. You can get that doing 30 hours per week for 1 year (50 weeks).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You generally can't negotiate post-doc salaries (at least at VA or research postdocs that abide by NIH stipend levels).

True. I know most/all of the neuro postdocs within the VA system were pretty darn close to each other.

While you do not have much/any leeway with salary in the VA system, you can negotiate some "soft" benefits within your department..at least for staff positions, not post-doc. For instance, I know someone who negotiated a % of time to work on their own research. I know someone else who was able to negotiate more $ towards repayment of her loan. You need to be creative when you work in the VA system. I'm still considering going back if I don't find what I want in academic medicine. GS-13, step1 ($90k-ish w. cost of living included) is not too shabby for 40-45hr/wk. GS-12 is $75k-ish, step1.

 

[2012PhD]

True. I know most/all of the neuro postdocs within the VA system were pretty darn close to each other.

While you do not have much/any leeway with salary in the VA system, you can negotiate some "soft" benefits within your department..at least for staff positions, not post-doc. For instance, I know someone who negotiated a % of time to work on their own research. I know someone else who was able to negotiate more $ towards repayment of her loan. You need to be creative when you work in the VA system. I'm still considering going back if I don't find what I want in academic medicine. GS-13, step1 ($90k-ish w. cost of living included) is not too shabby for 40-45hr/wk. GS-12 is $75k-ish, step1.

cool. how would you be able to get GS-13 as opposed to GS-12 after post-doc? There seems to be a big salary difference.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Licensure in California requires only 1500 hours after internship. You can get that doing 30 hours per week for 1 year (50 weeks).

true...but I never mentioned how fast I wanted to get the hours

 

[2012PhD]

true...but I never mentioned how fast I wanted to get the hours

didn't know you can do it faster.

i'm hoping to get licensed in california 🙂

the 4 hours of supervision per week (for 40 hours) seems tough to get unless its a formal post-doc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

cool. how would you be able to get GS-13 as opposed to GS-12 after post-doc? There seems to be a big salary difference.

I'm completing a 2yr fellowship instead of a 1yr, so the additional year of specialized training qualifies me for GS-13. Who knows if I'd be what they want, but I enjoyed my time in the VA and wouldn't mind going back.

 

[aequitasveritas]

didn't know you can do it faster.

i'm hoping to get licensed in california 🙂

the 4 hours of supervision per week (for 40 hours) seems tough to get unless its a formal post-doc.

There is a time requirement so I can't do it too fast but it can be done. Yeah, the hours are easier to get at a formal post doc, so it takes some craft to do it as a psych assistant yet I'd say its worth it.