Flabbergasted!

[mooshika]

I've only been doing this application thing for a year and a half, not including the post-bac and the science pre-req's and the MCAT - and I've been reading this board for about six months now.

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

Not only that, I find myself turning into the same kind of person that I mention above, and a person I never wanted to be - someone who introduces themselves with their GPA and their achievement scores and lists all of their "volunteer" work. I always found that rather boring.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this. And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

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[NerdyAndrea]

Mooshika:

I'm not a medical student, nor have I had an interview, or applied to any schools at this point I have to finish all my pre-med stuff up.

I think that there is a place for everyone to be accepted. Do you have a clear goal of what kind of medicine you want to do and why?

The app process for anything is cut throat and rigorous....I'd love to see a reality TV show called Pirates of pre-med, then we could get an idea of what it is that people do on their way there. We aren't seeing the whole of people, yes it's cut throat, but I have this thing in me that want's to be a Doctor, I simply will not be able to continue living happily if I do not strive with everything in me to get there.

Yes they want your GPA, your MCAT, your Personal Statement. What's your volunteer experience? Keep track of those things, maybe re-work your thinking to it being a game, and say okay they want to know the things I like that's why they want to know. It helps them to view you as a whole person.

I also think this is part of it. There's a thread somewhere here where people are saying it used to be much easier to get into med school. IF it's easy and it's all set to the point where there's an exact formula to get in, then people will do it. Well my thought is this, then we get some of the bitter physicians I read about the ones only in it for the lifestyle.

It would be a lie to say I didn't like money and security, but I do. I also have a passion for caring for people. Why not get paid to do what I love? I am assuming that medicine has something you love about it.

In the process they're weeding the ones out who don't really want it. I think if this is your heart's desire, and you know this is it for you without a doubt, then someone will take you.

I am being selfish for me in doing all this work. Be selfish for yourself, and just forget about the others. People can be mean, or really bizarre if they are highly competitive. I'm competitive, simply to get to what I love, and what fascinates me.

A

 

[mspeedwagon]

I whole-heartedly agree with you. I want to believe deep down that the medical school application process brings out the worst in people and that we are all deep down good people. Unfortunately, the medical school process is all about jumping through hoops. For example, many of us suffered through two semesters of organic chemistry and physics knowing very well that in all likelihood, we'll never use it beyond the MCAT.

I recently realized I didn't keep track of how many hours I volunteered or what my GPA was. I did volunteer work because I enjoyed it. I was awarded a citation of merit for my work with inner-city youth in Baltimore (as an African-American kid that grew up poor, these are the people I most want to see succeed... for many of us getting to college was a success [neither of my parents are college grads]). I took classes because I was interested in them, not for the "A" grade.

It's a flawed system, but there has to be a system in place. So while I agree with you, I do not think we are all bad people. The system is set-up where there are X number of us competing for the substantially fewer Y number of seats. We are doing what we must to earn the seat.

Though I haven't personally used them, in your case, I think a medical school consultant would be an excellent idea to make sure you say the right things. Not my opinion, but the general sentiment about nursing vs physician is that the roles are substantially different (caring vs treating) and that pursuing both shows a bit of confusion. Do you really want to be a doctor or really be a nurse? I think an admission consultant is well worth the money for a few hours to prepare you for the interview (unfortunately, I believe they are VERY expensive).

I've only been doing this application thing for a year and a half, not including the post-bac and the science pre-req's and the MCAT - and I've been reading this board for about six months now.

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

Not only that, I find myself turning into the same kind of person that I mention above, and a person I never wanted to be - someone who introduces themselves with their GPA and their achievement scores and lists all of their "volunteer" work. I always found that rather boring.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this. And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

 

[link2swim06]

SDN is often a place for people to vent....most (if not all) would not be close to the people they are online.

 

[mooshika]

You both say things I agree with and support. But here is what I think... nursing and doctoring are not so different. GASP! It depends on the individuals, their personal interests and how they practice. I am an RN with most of my NP courses done except the clinicals and my approach is much more like the doctors.

Nowadays, nurses and doctors have to learn many of the same game plays that doctors learn in order to treat patients well and play on the same field, on the same team. I work with psychiatrists and psychologists at my job. We have the same goals for the patient, we work in the same environment, see the same patients. We discuss treatment options in medical terms and in psychological terms. Either they or I see patients, do a write-up and make notes and discuss treatment.



If I had known straight away and had all the information I now have I would have just applied directly to med school. But I didn't, so doing a four semester fast track nursing degree was not a big deal. I could work as an RN and not have to be a CNA for crap money doing things wholly unrelated to medical practice and having little or no decision making responsibility.

Being confused between professions is not defined by finishing a BSN so you can work while you apply to med school and even while you are in med school. This seems confusing to the old guard ADCOM medicine doctors who still think nurses are there to wipe their foreheads and change bedpans and know nothing about medicine, but that is not the case any more. What kind of person is confused about "this is a doctor" and "this is a nurse." A *****. They all say "nursing is not a stepping stone into medicine!!!" Well of course it is! There are many people who would never become doctors if they were not nurses first. If it is a question between spending a couple more semesters and becoming an RN vs. graduating and then taking a CNA certification course - finish the BSN!!!! So much more practical.

Who is making up these rules is what I ask? These rules is dumb. We aren't confused, it's just that bad doctors are threatened by smart nurses who know that the jobs are different in some ways, but also know we do pretty much the same thing in the end of the day.

So it's OK for premed students to be CNA's, but if they are RN's, they are subjected to an interrogation and have their questionable motives layed out and investigated, and they must prove before a jury that they are not actually confused about being a doctor or a nurse? They must be! Especially this one... she says they do a lot of the same job, that there jobs aren't really that different! She must be really confused, so we can't let her into medical school. Think of the confusion! (Many doctors are very invested in keeping everyone thinking that nurses jobs are completely different than theirs.) No one says "if you wanted to go to medical school, why did you become a CNA? It's not a stepping stone into medicine you know. You must be confused about your career path! This is a red flag!"

I know a lot of doctors who would like to spend more time with their patients, talk to them more, observe them more closely, monitor them, do more education, but because of the financial pressure, much of their jobs are being passed on to the nurses who get paid less, and the doctors get to do most of their work on a computer or in a lab far away from the patients they treat because they get paid too much to allow them to actually "take care" of patients. So the nurses do what used to be the doctors job.

So 80% of what I do today as a nurse, is half of what doctors used to do when they were allowed to actually be doctors and spend 30-60 minutes with their patients. Now they are told they can spend ten minutes, and the nurses do all the things the docs used to do in that remaining time. So doctors and nurses jobs overlap quite a bit, especially if you are a good nurse and a good doctor, and nurses do a lot more of what used to be a doctors job back when doctors could afford to see patients.

 

[NerdyAndrea]

Mooshika:

Show them your passion for medicine led you to fast track an RN degree so you could make it, and go to school. Your accomplishments are amazingly wonderful. Explain to them why you wish to bring together your people skills you gained from nursing, and patient care. If you are part of a team, which you likely will be, compassion for patients and those working with you will be very important. I say, go for it.

Explain to them plain and simple that your years in healthcare have given you the desire to be a part of the team at the front end. In your career as a nurse, has being a physician fascinated you? Are you able to help bring patients and doctors closer? If so, then why not become a physician yourself and offer your experience to others in the field with a broader reach.

I think you have a lot going for you. Just tell them why you want to be a Doctor and use the compassion portion of things. I think it's great.

I am jsut giving you some hints, not trying to tell you how to interview, I don't even know how to do that myself yet.

My last business was as a freelance marketer.....I am drawing on some marketing and PR stuff. Might not work in this scenario, but might also. It's worth a shot.

 

[mooshika]

Mooshika:

Show them your passion for medicine led you to fast track an RN degree so you could make it, and go to school. Your accomplishments are amazingly wonderful. Explain to them why you wish to bring together your people skills you gained from nursing, and patient care. If you are part of a team, which you likely will be, compassion for patients and those working with you will be very important. I say, go for it.

Explain to them plain and simple that your years in healthcare have given you the desire to be a part of the team at the front end. In your career as a nurse, has being a physician fascinated you? Are you able to help bring patients and doctors closer? If so, then why not become a physician yourself and offer your experience to others in the field with a broader reach.

I think you have a lot going for you. Just tell them why you want to be a Doctor and use the compassion portion of things. I think it's great.

I am jsut giving you some hints, not trying to tell you how to interview, I don't even know how to do that myself yet.

My last business was as a freelance marketer.....I am drawing on some marketing and PR stuff. Might not work in this scenario, but might also. It's worth a shot.

What you say is tru and cool and I think you are looking at it in the right way - how do my current skills segway into medicine, and what was it that attracted me to it in the first place. For me these answers are so simple they almost seem as though they must be wrong, or not profound enough! But I need to keep it very simple since my tendency is to complicate simple concepts, talk too much and end up sounding like a confused inept nut.

I suppose most of the problem I have seen and had personally is getting many mixed messages and answers from people on ADCOMS saying that certain choices that I see as being smart and practical are actually "frowned upon" by ADCOMS for reasons that seem to either come from a double standard (the it's ok to work as a CNA and not be interrogated about it but if you get an RN before med school you are subject to mountains of criticism and interrogation, none of which makes any sense to me whatsoever.)

There is nothing you can do about the way they think, especially if they refuse to tell you. And the stuff they do tell you makes no sense whatsoever. None. All you can do is be honest and clear about who and what you are, and there must be very little confusion about careers even if despite having attended an accelerated post bac nursing program two years ago while I applied to med school I am clearly and surely not confused about my careers. That is why I spent thousands of dollars taking med school pre-req's, MCATS and prep courses, quite my job and moved in with my mother so I could do this and then do all of the essays and writing and prep for the primary and secondary applications - because I'm still not certain if I want to be a nurse or a doctor. And I even worked as a nurse because... why... I needed income to pay for postage stamps and cat food.

You have to laugh.

 

[mooshika]

Mooshika:

Show them your passion for medicine led you to fast track an RN degree so you could make it, and go to school. Your accomplishments are amazingly wonderful. Explain to them why you wish to bring together your people skills you gained from nursing, and patient care. If you are part of a team, which you likely will be, compassion for patients and those working with you will be very important. I say, go for it.

Explain to them plain and simple that your years in healthcare have given you the desire to be a part of the team at the front end. In your career as a nurse, has being a physician fascinated you? Are you able to help bring patients and doctors closer? If so, then why not become a physician yourself and offer your experience to others in the field with a broader reach.

I think you have a lot going for you. Just tell them why you want to be a Doctor and use the compassion portion of things. I think it's great.

I am jsut giving you some hints, not trying to tell you how to interview, I don't even know how to do that myself yet.

My last business was as a freelance marketer.....I am drawing on some marketing and PR stuff. Might not work in this scenario, but might also. It's worth a shot.

BTW you are very sweet and observant and correct in your assessment. Thanks for taking the time!

 

[NerdyAndrea]

YW I am about to take a shower and head to math at 8am then biostats at 9am I am still hammering problems out so I can understand.

I'm taking breaks and gleaning from SDN.

Thank you for the compliment. I come across harsh sometimes, but I'm not I was worried that my first post had come across that way.

A

 

[mspeedwagon]

You didn't mention you are already an RN. That is different. There are a lot of successful RN to MD applicants on these forums and you should browse or post for their stories.

My sentiment was what I have been told, not my personal opinion, and was more in reference to people that want to pursue an RN prior to an MD (which tends not to be the greatest idea... see njmd's post in the other thread).

I've worked for years in a hospital, and while the role may not be that different, I do think nurses and physicians have a different mindset. I'll give you an example. I worked at a cancer institute, and we had a patient come in with a rare complex tumor. The oncologist was fascinated it by it, studied the chart, researched treatment options etc. We then went to a weekly conference where complex cases were discussed and the oncologist was asked, "so how is the patient doing?" and he had no clue (the patient was actually in clinic so he could have seen him, but was so fascinated by the medical record that he didn't). But, guess who was present that did? Yup, the nurse practitioner first talked to the patient then reviewed the chart.

In my experience, nurses think about care first whereas physicians think diagnosis first, though I agree that the jobs are not mutually exclusive.

You both say things I agree with and support. But here is what I think... nursing and doctoring are not so different. GASP! It depends on the individuals, their personal interests and how they practice. I am an RN with most of my NP courses done except the clinicals and my approach is much more like the doctors.

Nowadays, nurses and doctors have to learn many of the same game plays that doctors learn in order to treat patients well and play on the same field, on the same team. I work with psychiatrists and psychologists at my job. We have the same goals for the patient, we work in the same environment, see the same patients. We discuss treatment options in medical terms and in psychological terms. Either they or I see patients, do a write-up and make notes and discuss treatment.



If I had known straight away and had all the information I now have I would have just applied directly to med school. But I didn't, so doing a four semester fast track nursing degree was not a big deal. I could work as an RN and not have to be a CNA for crap money doing things wholly unrelated to medical practice and having little or no decision making responsibility.

Being confused between professions is not defined by finishing a BSN so you can work while you apply to med school and even while you are in med school. This seems confusing to the old guard ADCOM medicine doctors who still think nurses are there to wipe their foreheads and change bedpans and know nothing about medicine, but that is not the case any more. What kind of person is confused about "this is a doctor" and "this is a nurse." A *****. They all say "nursing is not a stepping stone into medicine!!!" Well of course it is! There are many people who would never become doctors if they were not nurses first. If it is a question between spending a couple more semesters and becoming an RN vs. graduating and then taking a CNA certification course - finish the BSN!!!! So much more practical.

Who is making up these rules is what I ask? These rules is dumb. We aren't confused, it's just that bad doctors are threatened by smart nurses who know that the jobs are different in some ways, but also know we do pretty much the same thing in the end of the day.

So it's OK for premed students to be CNA's, but if they are RN's, they are subjected to an interrogation and have their questionable motives layed out and investigated, and they must prove before a jury that they are not actually confused about being a doctor or a nurse? They must be! Especially this one... she says they do a lot of the same job, that there jobs aren't really that different! She must be really confused, so we can't let her into medical school. Think of the confusion! (Many doctors are very invested in keeping everyone thinking that nurses jobs are completely different than theirs.) No one says "if you wanted to go to medical school, why did you become a CNA? It's not a stepping stone into medicine you know. You must be confused about your career path! This is a red flag!"

I know a lot of doctors who would like to spend more time with their patients, talk to them more, observe them more closely, monitor them, do more education, but because of the financial pressure, much of their jobs are being passed on to the nurses who get paid less, and the doctors get to do most of their work on a computer or in a lab far away from the patients they treat because they get paid too much to allow them to actually "take care" of patients. So the nurses do what used to be the doctors job.

So 80% of what I do today as a nurse, is half of what doctors used to do when they were allowed to actually be doctors and spend 30-60 minutes with their patients. Now they are told they can spend ten minutes, and the nurses do all the things the docs used to do in that remaining time. So doctors and nurses jobs overlap quite a bit, especially if you are a good nurse and a good doctor, and nurses do a lot more of what used to be a doctors job back when doctors could afford to see patients.

 

[ArkansasRanger]

I've only been doing this application thing for a year and a half, not including the post-bac and the science pre-req's and the MCAT - and I've been reading this board for about six months now.

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

Not only that, I find myself turning into the same kind of person that I mention above, and a person I never wanted to be - someone who introduces themselves with their GPA and their achievement scores and lists all of their "volunteer" work. I always found that rather boring.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this. And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the process of it all is pretty repugnant as well. I'm embarassed to tell people that I'm a premed type for two reaons. One, most premeds are jerks as you point out, and two, it's so silly. After jumping through all the hoops of this silly game your likelihood of getting rejected is far greater than getting accepted. That said, it's embarassing to communicate the risk you're taking. I just wish I had done it all when I was younger and could've subscribed to the premed dogma.

 

[QofQuimica]

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

The app process is definitely unpredictable, difficult, and even a little painful sometimes. If it's any consolation, it's like that for pretty much everyone. That being said, I do think that most people on this forum have good intentions, even if our tactfulness on occasion leaves something to be desired.

With regard to not wanting to be classmates with "insensitive and nasty" people, you'd best not go to med school at all in that case. As a nurse, you work with physicians; you don't need me to tell you that some of them can be real jerks.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this.

Just give a ballpark estimate. You don't have to be like a bureaucrat and track it down to the fifteen minute interval.

And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

How adcoms view your path will be school-dependent. Not all adcoms are looking for the same thing. This is why you generally don't only apply to one single school.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Most people don't have time to work. Reports of med students working on SDN are greatly exaggerated. But if you can handle your school workload, and you can find a job that will let you work so sporadically, there's nothing inherently wrong with working a few shifts here and there. I don't think anyone said working some shifts means that you wouldn't be a good physician, although again, you would have to guard against letting your schoolwork suffer.

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

My approach to interviewing is that I want to gather enough information to be able to advocate for that person at the adcom meeting. Obviously I won't advocate for them if I don't think they're a good candidate, but that's relatively uncommon. The problem we generally run into isn't that we're looking for ways to reject people, but rather that we have half a dozen great candidates for every seat. This is why it's important to apply early--sometimes we even don't invite qualified people for interviews simply because we've run out of interview slots.

There is always an element of subjectivity in this app process, but the only way to make it more objective is to do exactly the opposite of what most of us want, which is to rely more heavily on stats. My advice is that you assemble the strongest possible app you can, research your schools thoroughly, and apply strategically to schools that seem like a good fit and that you feel match with your strengths and career goals. Also, sometimes an SDN break is good for the soul. This site can make people a bit neurotic after a while.

Best of luck.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

I've only been doing this application thing for a year and a half, not including the post-bac and the science pre-req's and the MCAT - and I've been reading this board for about six months now.

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

Not only that, I find myself turning into the same kind of person that I mention above, and a person I never wanted to be - someone who introduces themselves with their GPA and their achievement scores and lists all of their "volunteer" work. I always found that rather boring.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this. And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

Medical School Application is a game you play. You play by the rules they set up no matter how dumb and annoying, then you get in.

You do it because you want to be a doctor. I find it all silly too, writing a statement about how unique and great you are without saying it directly; showing how committed to being selfless you are by talking about yourself and quantifying all your "selfless" hours served. Saying you must have M.D. support you when a lot of people don't know any. Hoop after hoop.

It is a game that is set up by those in power and they believe it is the best way to select doctors. Is it? probably not, but it is what it is.

If you want to be a doctor you put up with it, if you don't then you move on.

Good luck

 

[MegaSpectacular]

Reports of med students working on SDN are greatly exaggerated.

I think everything on SDN is greatly exaggerated.

 

[Nasrudin]

Great thread. I have heard the voices in my head bounce along the very same corridors.

Another post by Q par excellence.

OP. For certain. This is a gentleman's game from getgo. Normalized to fit the cultural mean of wealth and privilege. And when it's not it's worse still. Corporate interests impose their will. Making the premium for the comeuppance of researchers go up. The clinically and even socially oriented, down. A medical school rises in prestige--read commercial viability--by producing data on salable technologies. This function that operates on them is only limited by whatever popular interests also mandate to them.


By some rough gradient of "fit." You only have this limited range of options.

Sell soul accordingly.

 

[NerdyAndrea]

I just loaned my soul for a while. It's out of the pawn shop now. Now I'm selling it.

A

 

[apreludem]

Nasrudin: i love your style of writting


OP: i feel you. I too have heard that nursing is more of a - then a + to your application. I just can't imagine what idiot would think so, honestly. How can leadership skills/patient contact/medical experience/critical thinking skills possibly be a negative "red flag"? I never understood it and therefore, refuse to believe that. Nursing is a GREAT way to pay for your journey into medical school not to mention the wealth of experience you acquire in the process.

I, for one, don't regret getting my RN title. It has allowed me to pursue my dream of becoming a Doctor. It has reinforced my passion for helping others and has determined, by persuading my biggest critic - myself, that medicine IS the right path for me.

there might be spelling and tons of grammar problems in my post, i do not care at this time. 12 hours into my shift. i am exhausted, but i feel accomplished

It's a great feeling to hear " will you be coming back tomorrow? can i request for you to be my nurse again?"

Nothing feels better to me at this point.

 

[sumstorm]

Unfortunately, the medical school process is all about jumping through hoops. For example, many of us suffered through two semesters of organic chemistry and physics knowing very well that in all likelihood, we'll never use it beyond the MCAT.

Do realize that what you see as hoops now may be crutches later; organic is what helps me thrive in pharmacology and a solid understanding of physics earned me A's in physiology. There are general reasons for how/why adcoms select who they do…and there are always exceptions. Go in knowing the game, but determine who you are and where you are going.
I do agree that the entire education system is badly damaged, particularly in a country that believes it is based on meritocracy. I was accepted to med school in 2001, but elected to take a fellowship instead, surrendering my spot. Nearly a decade later, I am grateful for the fellowship experience and much happier with the path I am on now. However, as an RN, I am sure you know politics exists in every system; think of it as just a test to see if you can follow procedures, know when to make exceptions, and move ahead.

 

[she woolf]

I honestly don't get the BSNursing and then Med school is bad thing. It seems like you should jump through the hoops to see if you get in and THEN if you don't OOPS sorry you're f^cked and have nothing to fallback on. I wanted to get my bachelors in PhyAss studies and then go to med school BUT it seems as though it is frowned upon and I'm taking someones spot! Like WTF? So I should only apply to PA school AFTER i get rejected...Or major in something Sci related to get a feel of Med school..BUT if I don't get in I might not have good job out look...FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!! >.< '

 

[mooshika]

"With regard to not wanting to be classmates with "insensitive and nasty" people, you'd best not go to med school at all in that case. As a nurse, you work with physicians; you don't need me to tell you that some of them can be real jerks. "



LOL! There are jerks everywhere. Comments here don't upset me it's just something I observe. Also, and I'll duck after I say this cause I'm going to get reamed by the several apparently way cool, smart and even minded RN to MD types I've run across on this board who are probably the exception to the rule, but nurses are generally the hardest on other nurses.


Peace,
m.

 

[MedicalMomma]

I've only been doing this application thing for a year and a half, not including the post-bac and the science pre-req's and the MCAT - and I've been reading this board for about six months now.

I have never in my life seen anything so unpredictable, difficult, challenging and even sometimes cruel as the path of this med school application process. I am also amazed at how insensitive and nasty some of the posters on this board can be to their fellow students. These people are going to be physicians? Heaven help those who cross their paths. I wish everyone came back later and told us where they go to med school so I can avoid even applying there!

Not only that, I find myself turning into the same kind of person that I mention above, and a person I never wanted to be - someone who introduces themselves with their GPA and their achievement scores and lists all of their "volunteer" work. I always found that rather boring.

Because my values for "success" have always been very different than what they need to be for getting into med school, I never thought I would end up actually applying to med school. In fact, I am starting to wonder if my values are so different than what the med schools expect from an applicant that I will never get accepted anywhere.

An example is that I never kept track of service work or did it for my resume and it feels kind of slimy to me to do this. And then people write things like they want to finish a BSN before they apply to med school so they can have a better job while they apply... I thought this was a great idea, then someone from an ADCOM said that this would be looked down upon very much. Oops.

And it seems to all be very contradictory to me. Why can't a person work as a nurse when they are in med school if they can and want to? Why is that a bad thing? If they have time and need some extra money to make their lives easier? Maybe there won't be time - so then you don't work. Whats the big deal? A lot of med students work when they are in med school. They teach MCAT prep, freelance write, tutor, etc. What in heavens name is wrong with working a couple of shifts a month if one can or wants to? Why should saying this keep someone out of medical school? What exactly is it saying about someone that will certainly prove that they will not be a good physician or successful in medical school?

Some of the things I have said in interviews I have later read are things you should never say. This is confusing to me. What do you do? In a way I feel like they have to cut so many people out of the running that anything I say is fodder for rejection... its almost like they look for any little thing to use as evidence for why you are "unsuitable."

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

I hear you. It took me a few years to decide to suck it up and just "play the game". I had a meeting with an advisor from a local medical school last week who ran through the generic list of "mandatory volunteer experience" requirements and it made me sick to my stomach. I have a biology degree and I really regret not getting a BSN instead! It makes so much sense to me to have a backup plan you'd be happy with in case you're not accepted, or it takes you a few years to get in. I've bounced around to different jobs since I've graduated and I didn't like any of them. Why? Because pharmaceutical sales sure as hell isn't healthcare! I'm applying for the first time this June and I was told by the admissions advisor that because I started my preparations (volunteering in ER, clinical research, shadowing) 6 months ago and not 6 years ago I would be at a disadvantage. I got all stressed out because I feel like I'm doing absolutely everything my time will allow at the moment and it's not good enough? She also suggested getting a CNA certification!!! HA! God forbid I do something to get paid for having my degree! I'm married, with a child, and one on the way... money matters! I can't just go be a CNA for $10 an hour when childcare will cost just as much.

Sorry for the rant, haha. But, like I said, I have finally succumbed to playing the game even though it hurts my soul a little. I do not think I will get a CNA certification, but I will (gulp) suck up to my professors just to get good recommendations, volunteer for things that will look good on paper, and try to rack my brain for all of the things I did in the past so I can come up with a respectable application. I want to be a doctor... I've gotta jump through the hoops, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

I agree that doctors protect their prestige by keeping the education path so exclusive and hate to admit that a nurse could ever do what they do. I would be all for a path that would allow a nurse to progress to a doctor in a way that utilized the knowledge he or she had already obtained through a nursing education. Why not part-time options? Nights or weekends? Law schools have them, why not med schools?

Until then... I'm playing the game because it's the only way I can do what I want to do with my life. It's frustrating, I know. I look forward to the day I'm accepted and can put all of this behind me! Oh wait... I'll have a residency spot to compete for. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[Nasrudin]

I hear you. It took me a few years to decide to suck it up and just "play the game". I had a meeting with an advisor from a local medical school last week who ran through the generic list of "mandatory volunteer experience" requirements and it made me sick to my stomach. I have a biology degree and I really regret not getting a BSN instead! It makes so much sense to me to have a backup plan you'd be happy with in case you're not accepted, or it takes you a few years to get in. I've bounced around to different jobs since I've graduated and I didn't like any of them. Why? Because pharmaceutical sales sure as hell isn't healthcare! I'm applying for the first time this June and I was told by the admissions advisor that because I started my preparations (volunteering in ER, clinical research, shadowing) 6 months ago and not 6 years ago I would be at a disadvantage. I got all stressed out because I feel like I'm doing absolutely everything my time will allow at the moment and it's not good enough? She also suggested getting a CNA certification!!! HA! God forbid I do something to get paid for having my degree! I'm married, with a child, and one on the way... money matters! I can't just go be a CNA for $10 an hour when childcare will cost just as much.

Sorry for the rant, haha. But, like I said, I have finally succumbed to playing the game even though it hurts my soul a little. I do not think I will get a CNA certification, but I will (gulp) suck up to my professors just to get good recommendations, volunteer for things that will look good on paper, and try to rack my brain for all of the things I did in the past so I can come up with a respectable application. I want to be a doctor... I've gotta jump through the hoops, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

I agree that doctors protect their prestige by keeping the education path so exclusive and hate to admit that a nurse could ever do what they do. I would be all for a path that would allow a nurse to progress to a doctor in a way that utilized the knowledge he or she had already obtained through a nursing education. Why not part-time options? Nights or weekends? Law schools have them, why not med schools?

Until then... I'm playing the game because it's the only way I can do what I want to do with my life. It's frustrating, I know. I look forward to the day I'm accepted and can put all of this behind me! Oh wait... I'll have a residency spot to compete for. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with most of the general sentiments here. And RN pathway would have been a better plan for me too. Economically. Although only because my applications got sidetracked for other reasons for a few years.

When looking at long term costs. It can be very efficient to get all of your pre-reqs folded into a general biology degree. Which also gave me the oddball circumstance of getting two passes at Anatomy and biochem. And courses in genetics, microbiology, and physiology. My professor's used some classic medical school texts for study too. Albeit in much reduced scale and detail. I feel better having been there, even in a cursory sense, with the medical school mountain looming large on the horizon.

Secondly. As the devil's wingman. I feel obliged to refute the notion of similitude in Nursing and Medicine pedagogy. Application based how-to's, replete with reactive and responsive modes compare nada to the analytical decisiveness required of physicians.

Like or not. That just the way this **** goes down. As a working medical assistant, I refer any complicated treatment issues assigned to me by my physician to my RN or LVN supervisors for their input. But anyone who wants their turn to rock the mic, must pay the physician's dues.

The rest of us are hypemen. Even the RN's. Even though complicated mulit-tasking assessments of sick patients is no f@ckin joke. There will always be just one MC in this game. And a middle ground pathway based on nursing curricula is. Well. Frightening.

 

[NerdyAndrea]

The General Biology degree is a good idea. We are on a Semester system at my school, which is very different fr the area itseems everyone else is on the quartr system.

I'm doing a Biology Degree it's specifically geared to pre-med with all the pre-reqs wrapped in I think, this is what it is I think they are trying to fit well rounded into even the science degrees which is good:

General Education Requirements (73 credits)

• Humanities (10 credits)
  • English and Communication
    • ENGL 1013 Expository Writing
    • ENGL 1033 APA Research Writing
    • COMM 1212 Fundamentals of Speech Communication
  • Fine Arts
    Select one course from the following:
    • ARTE 1022 Art Appreciation
    • ARTE 1302 Introduction to Drawing or
      ARTE 1322 Introduction to Painting or
      ARTE 1342 Introduction to Photography
    • DRAM 2012 Introduction to Theatre
    • DRAM / MUSI Performing Arts (see course descriptions for applicability)
    • MUSI 1012 http://www.northwestu.edu/programs/course.php?d=MUSI&n=1012or
      MUSI 1022 http://www.northwestu.edu/programs/course.php?d=MUSI&n=1022
• Science & Mathematics (38 credits)
• • MATH 1243 Calculus I
  • MATH 2353 Biostatistics
  • SCIE 1283 Physics w/lab
  • SCIE 1293 Physics II w/lab
  • SCIE 1333 General Chemistry I w/lab
  • SCIE 1343 General Chemistry II w/lab
  • SCIE 2053 General Biology I w/lab
  • SCIE 2063 General Biology II w/lab
  • SCIE 2433 Organic Chemistry I w/lab
  • SCIE 2443 Organic Chemistry II w/lab
• Social Science (9 credits)
• • HIST xxx3 Any Course in History
  • Choose 2 additional areas:
    • Church History or Political Science
    • Economics ( BUSM 2303 Principles of Microeconomics or
      BUSM 2353 Principles of Macroeconomics
    • Geography
    • Philosophy (except PHIL 2703; PHIL 2753 recommended)
    • Physical Education
    • PSYC 1013 General Psychology
• Biblical Studies (15 credits)
  • BIBL 1103 OT History and Literature
  • BIBL 1203 NT History and Literature
  • BIBL 2553 Biblical Interpretation
  • THEO 1213 Christian Thought
  • THEO/BIBL xxx3 Theology or Bible elective

Major Requirements* (38 credits)

Science and Mathematics General Education Requirements must be completed prior to admission to major.
Choose either the Biology Professional OR General Biology Requirements

• Biology Professional Requirements (32 credits)
  • SCIE 2203 Human Anatomy and Physiology I w/lab
  • SCIE 2213 Human Anatomy and Physiology II w/lab
  • SCIE 2403 Environmental Science w/lab
  • SCIE 3104 Microbiology w/lab
  • SCIE 3143 Genetics w/lab
  • SCIE 3403 Cell Biology w/lab
  • SCIE 4423 Biochemistry w/lab
  • SCIE xxx4 Any Science Elective

Integration and Application (6 credits)

• SCIE 3332 Integration and Development
• SCIE 4432 Scientific Cross Cultural Experiences
• SCIE 4442 Scientific Cross Cultural Experiences

I think that if you choose a degree that is well rounded then it's alright to do sciences, thogh I have no clue what I'll do with this other than go to med school.

It's tough, heck even the pre-requs are. Never going to be easy then making sure you ahve the volunteering and everything. I am still trying to figure out how to finish as quickly as possible with the best grades possible. Luckily I actually do have some of the pre-requs cleared up. I was a crappy college student in my late teens and early 20s. I've changed a lot, and I'll be able to show it but man is it tough tough tough!

I think it is a lot of hoops to get into med school, but are the hoops worth it. I believe they are. I have to study between 25 and 40 hours a week. It's frustrating, but you can bet for all these hoops I am damn sure I am going. I'm not going to let stuff get in my way.

mooshika, I think you can overcome the RN thingy. I don't think it's the end of the world.

A

 

[vanslix]

This is a weird, weird business you have going here people.

Been there, done that, and it definitely does suck. The only thing I can figure is that if they make the app/admissions process hard enough, it weeds out the ones who are on the fence about being able to complete it. Remember, the institution (or state) invests a lot of money in training a doc. They don't want you bailing after 4 years of it. You both lose in that instance. After seeing the absurdity of it, I had to ask myself how bad did I want it? After answering in the affirmative, jumping through the hoops didn't seem quite as annoying.

 

[mooshika]

Been there, done that, and it definitely does suck. The only thing I can figure is that if they make the app/admissions process hard enough, it weeds out the ones who are on the fence about being able to complete it. Remember, the institution (or state) invests a lot of money in training a doc. They don't want you bailing after 4 years of it. You both lose in that instance. After seeing the absurdity of it, I had to ask myself how bad did I want it? After answering in the affirmative, jumping through the hoops didn't seem quite as annoying.

Good lord who on earth would bail after going through all of this? Oh wait, I know, the person who entered medical school straight out of college where they spent each semester and each moment of potentially "free" time gaining medical school application credentials, another four years sweating through med school and another four years in a residency after which they are either STILL the most boring person on earth, or they realize that they are not, in fact, boring, and they want to take a class in bookbinding or do a season as a ski bum or take flying lessons or tap dancing or learn how to paint or play guitar, and who wants to practice medicine now that they discover they have a genuine talent for the french horn and want to get married and raise a family? No, not that person...

This feels like one of those experiences where everyone blindly plays by important sounding rules that have been carved into stone by years of repetition, only to find by opening one's eyes that most of the rules either don't make sense in todays culture, or never really made sense in the first place other than to exclude certain classes of people from participating in the game. I would wager to say that many people in the game, even many of the adcom members, don't even realize how impractical and even impeding many of the unwritten "standards for med school admission" policies are, and when called to their attention would be surprised at the standards they are unwittingly adhering to and how much they work against us in the end.

My grandfather used to warn me "never let good be the enemy of the best." I think we can do much, much, better for our patients by re-evaluating these dusty old rules. I believe they work against everyone in the end by limiting the number of fantastic potential physicians out there who don't even bother to apply because, well, everyone knows that anybody who changes their mind halfway through nursing school and decides to try and go to med school will never make a good doctor. Huh??? People who mention they might have to work part time here and there while in med school because they have a family to support can't possibly be "suitable" for such a profession because they are blind to the financial pressures four years of med school bring on (since doctors get paid such a terrible wage after all.) They are far, far too impractical and foolish to be a good doctor.

mooshika - RN's make the best MD's!

 

[drizzt3117]

The thing is, while in my experience there are certainly some boring people in med school, the amount of diversity that I see on a regular basis is pretty staggering, much more so than undergrad IMO.

 

[jl lin]

You both say things I agree with and support. But here is what I think... nursing and doctoring are not so different. GASP! It depends on the individuals, their personal interests and how they practice. I am an RN with most of my NP courses done except the clinicals and my approach is much more like the doctors.

Nowadays, nurses and doctors have to learn many of the same game plays that doctors learn in order to treat patients well and play on the same field, on the same team. I work with psychiatrists and psychologists at my job. We have the same goals for the patient, we work in the same environment, see the same patients. We discuss treatment options in medical terms and in psychological terms. Either they or I see patients, do a write-up and make notes and discuss treatment.



If I had known straight away and had all the information I now have I would have just applied directly to med school. But I didn't, so doing a four semester fast track nursing degree was not a big deal. I could work as an RN and not have to be a CNA for crap money doing things wholly unrelated to medical practice and having little or no decision making responsibility.

Being confused between professions is not defined by finishing a BSN so you can work while you apply to med school and even while you are in med school. This seems confusing to the old guard ADCOM medicine doctors who still think nurses are there to wipe their foreheads and change bedpans and know nothing about medicine, but that is not the case any more. What kind of person is confused about "this is a doctor" and "this is a nurse." A *****. They all say "nursing is not a stepping stone into medicine!!!" Well of course it is! There are many people who would never become doctors if they were not nurses first. If it is a question between spending a couple more semesters and becoming an RN vs. graduating and then taking a CNA certification course - finish the BSN!!!! So much more practical.

Who is making up these rules is what I ask? These rules is dumb. We aren't confused, it's just that bad doctors are threatened by smart nurses who know that the jobs are different in some ways, but also know we do pretty much the same thing in the end of the day.

So it's OK for premed students to be CNA's, but if they are RN's, they are subjected to an interrogation and have their questionable motives layed out and investigated, and they must prove before a jury that they are not actually confused about being a doctor or a nurse? They must be! Especially this one... she says they do a lot of the same job, that there jobs aren't really that different! She must be really confused, so we can't let her into medical school. Think of the confusion! (Many doctors are very invested in keeping everyone thinking that nurses jobs are completely different than theirs.) No one says "if you wanted to go to medical school, why did you become a CNA? It's not a stepping stone into medicine you know. You must be confused about your career path! This is a red flag!"

I know a lot of doctors who would like to spend more time with their patients, talk to them more, observe them more closely, monitor them, do more education, but because of the financial pressure, much of their jobs are being passed on to the nurses who get paid less, and the doctors get to do most of their work on a computer or in a lab far away from the patients they treat because they get paid too much to allow them to actually "take care" of patients. So the nurses do what used to be the doctors job.

So 80% of what I do today as a nurse, is half of what doctors used to do when they were allowed to actually be doctors and spend 30-60 minutes with their patients. Now they are told they can spend ten minutes, and the nurses do all the things the docs used to do in that remaining time. So doctors and nurses jobs overlap quite a bit, especially if you are a good nurse and a good doctor, and nurses do a lot more of what used to be a doctors job back when doctors could afford to see patients.

From my experience as a critical care RN,well, frankly there can be a good amount of actual medicine. If you don't learn a fair amount you are either daft, not interested, or crusing to marry a doc. LOL.

Meanwhile I won't dare say that to a great many in and around medicine. Some docs are cool with it actually b/c they have worked with you and they know what you know on certain things, but others are not cool about it. It really doesn't matter, b/c at the end of the day we know what we know. At the same time, I know there's a heck of a lot that I don't know. Why give someone the opportunity to misinterpret your truest perspective. And that is what can happen way too easily. So my POV on this is less said the better. Ego issues are a real part of the health care community at times. It's a sad reality. And there is often an issue of feeling that someone is going to upstage someone else. I think it's in all professions, but b/c of dealing with sick people, it is really hard to take in this environment--b/c it's supposed to be about them.


As far as working while you are in medical school, listen, wait your first set of exams, see how you do and go from there.

 

[jl lin]

I feel obliged to refute the notion of similitude in Nursing and Medicine pedagogy. Application based how-to's, replete with reactive and responsive modes compare nada to the analytical decisiveness required of physicians.

Like or not. That just the way this **** goes down. As a working medical assistant, I refer any complicated treatment issues assigned to me by my physician to my RN or LVN supervisors for their input.

Work long enough in some busy areas with hypercritical patients in some high level critical care units. You will change your mind on that for sure.

Office nursing and the like cannot compare. . .at all. And this is part of the reason they don't get paid nearly as much. Even as busy as many nursing homes and rehab centers get anymore as compared with the old days, nope, it's just not the same. You've got to work it and do it a lot in the right areas to know it. And the difference in the units compared to the ED is that you can and often must hone in on the medicine more. And it is hypercritical in more ways that one. You are constantly thinking and combing through everything plus often running to stay on top of things. Listen, there is a reason that used to have serious ICU experience as a requirement for a nurse to gain entrance to a CRNA-nurse anesthesia program--highly competetive too. But you would only know this if you had worked in it and in it a lot.

You f-ing do learn a lot of medicine in a number of ICUs. LOL. Docs cannot be everywhere at once. They are NOT omnipresent.

Wow.

 

[Nasrudin]

Work long enough in some busy areas with hypercritical patients in some high level critical care units. You will change your mind on that for sure.

Office nursing and the like cannot compare. . .at all. And this is part of the reason they don't get paid nearly as much. Even as busy as many nursing homes and rehab centers get anymore as compared with the old days, nope, it's just not the same. You've got to work it and do it a lot in the right areas to know it. And the difference in the units compared to the ED is that you can and often must hone in on the medicine more. And it is hypercritical in more ways that one. You are constantly thinking and combing through everything plus often running to stay on top of things. Listen, there is a reason that used to have serious ICU experience as a requirement for a nurse to gain entrance to a CRNA-nurse anesthesia program--highly competetive too. But you would only know this if you had worked in it and in it a lot.

You f-ing do learn a lot of medicine in a number of ICUs. LOL. Docs cannot be everywhere at once. They are NOT omnipresent.

Wow.

You do. No doubt. My respect for good nurses is unequivocal. As a pup doc I plan stay close to their guidance to make sure I don't hurt anybody.

But the weight of responsibility. For the correct and incorrect decisions. As an attending and senior resident. I will ask not for whom the pager rings. It will ring for me. And if I'm not ready for it. I'll do something else. Cause that's the job.

Anticipation. Filling in the clinical gaps. And generally making sick people better. That's what good nurses do. There's miles of separation between them. Functionally. One no better than the other. Each dancing as partners.

All these other clinical hybrids are more or less of on or the other. According to functionality, politics, and so forth. But the the traditional roles are unique spheres of operation in my opinion. Their orbits overlap and pull on one another. But they are separate entities.

 

[jl lin]

This feels like one of those experiences where everyone blindly plays by important sounding rules that have been carved into stone by years of repetition, only to find by opening one's eyes that most of the rules either don't make sense in todays culture, or never really made sense in the first place other than to exclude certain classes of people from participating in the game..

Truth. But remember, medicine honors tradition.

My grandfather used to warn me "never let good be the enemy of the best." mooshika - RN's make the best MD's!

Good words. I would say that RNs can make some of the best MDs. (I've worked with some really bright nurses. OTOH, I worked with some that aren't quite as bright--same thing both ways with docs. So my conclusion: Depends on the person.)

I have a thing for balance--and I'm not even a Libra. It's some kind of strange obsession. So some have told me I should go to law school, but my sweet Lord it word bore the life out of me. LOL

 

[jl lin]

You do. No doubt. My respect for good nurses is unequivocal. As a pup doc I plan stay close to their guidance to make sure I don't hurt anybody.

But the weight of responsibility. For the correct and incorrect decisions. As an attending and senior resident. I will ask not for whom the pager rings. It will ring for me. And if I'm not ready for it. I'll do something else. Cause that's the job.

Anticipation. Filling in the clinical gaps. And generally making sick people better. That's what good nurses do. There's miles of separation between them. Functionally. One no better than the other. Each dancing as partners.

All these other clinical hybrids are more or less of on or the other. According to functionality, politics, and so forth. But the the traditional roles are unique spheres of operation in my opinion. Their orbits overlap and pull on one another. But they are separate entities.

Nas, nurses do get sued. They must be covered with mp insurance too.

There's a lot more accountability and responsiblity than you may think.
God that is the first thing they cram down your throat over and over again in nursing school. "Accountability and responsibility." They actually snuck it as a "freebie" on tests to help get their point across. But you still don't get it until you are out there. What you do in nursing school is nothing compared to RL accountability falling on you.

And when the ****teth hitteth the fan who do you think is the first person they want to dump it to take any raps? Yep. The nurse. And see they are considered way more expendable, b/c they aren't the ones bringing in the revenue per se. Games abound. You live with it or you don't.

 

[Emerald84]

I think you could say that moving in with your mother is evidence enough of your commtment to medicine! (mine is delightfully crazy and I still moved back home to do the same)

What you say is tru and cool and I think you are looking at it in the right way - how do my current skills segway into medicine, and what was it that attracted me to it in the first place. For me these answers are so simple they almost seem as though they must be wrong, or not profound enough! But I need to keep it very simple since my tendency is to complicate simple concepts, talk too much and end up sounding like a confused inept nut.

I suppose most of the problem I have seen and had personally is getting many mixed messages and answers from people on ADCOMS saying that certain choices that I see as being smart and practical are actually "frowned upon" by ADCOMS for reasons that seem to either come from a double standard (the it's ok to work as a CNA and not be interrogated about it but if you get an RN before med school you are subject to mountains of criticism and interrogation, none of which makes any sense to me whatsoever.)

There is nothing you can do about the way they think, especially if they refuse to tell you. And the stuff they do tell you makes no sense whatsoever. None. All you can do is be honest and clear about who and what you are, and there must be very little confusion about careers even if despite having attended an accelerated post bac nursing program two years ago while I applied to med school I am clearly and surely not confused about my careers. That is why I spent thousands of dollars taking med school pre-req's, MCATS and prep courses, quite my job and moved in with my mother so I could do this and then do all of the essays and writing and prep for the primary and secondary applications - because I'm still not certain if I want to be a nurse or a doctor. And I even worked as a nurse because... why... I needed income to pay for postage stamps and cat food.

You have to laugh.

 

[jl lin]

Anticipation. Filling in the clinical gaps. And generally making sick people better. That's what good nurses do. There's miles of separation between them. Functionally. One no better than the other. Each dancing as partners.

All these other clinical hybrids are more or less of on or the other. According to functionality, politics, and so forth. But the the traditional roles are unique spheres of operation in my opinion. Their orbits overlap and pull on one another. But they are separate entities.

That up there about anticipation and filling in the gaps, man you are wrong on many accounts. You are not getting that especially critical care nurses must know the medicine whether the plan and implementation is working or not for the patient--getting with docs or NPs and working toward getting what will work for the patient. You think I don't know what those hemodynamic indices mean when I push a CO/CI? You think I don't know which drips I'm titrating aren't going to directly affect SVR systemic vascular resistance. You think we are just going through the motions when we are at PAC looking at the films? And what I don't know I am looking to learn from whoever is willing to teach me on rounds or otherwise.

What do you think you have to learn to become CCRN certified. Go through some of those prep books and tell me there's no medicine in that.

Oy and vey.

 

[Emerald84]

Harsh? Aww, not the SDN's newest bright rainbow of sunshine and huggs!

Ok, I', kidding, but you come across as honest and forthright and pretty positive.

YW I am about to take a shower and head to math at 8am then biostats at 9am I am still hammering problems out so I can understand.

I'm taking breaks and gleaning from SDN.

Thank you for the compliment. I come across harsh sometimes, but I'm not I was worried that my first post had come across that way.

A

 

[NerdyAndrea]

uuummm actually my roomies laugh I have several stuffed animals that are of the hello kitty variety.....no one pictures me in pink, but yes it's one of my favorite colors second to lavendar, and eeyore is my favorite Disney character.

I even have some eeyore and tinkerbell scrubs.

I'm sunshine and rainbows 29 out of 30 days, or 23 out of 24 hours.....but there's those tmornings for the I'm awake shirt what more do you want?


A

 

[Nasrudin]

Nas, nurses do get sued. They must be covered with mp insurance too.

There's a lot more accountability and responsiblity than you may think.
God that is the first thing they cram down your throat over and over again in nursing school. "Accountability and responsibility." They actually snuck it as a "freebie" on tests to help get their point across. But you still don't get it until you are out there. What you do in nursing school is nothing compared to RL accountability falling on you.

And when the ****teth hitteth the fan who do you think is the first person they want to dump it to take any raps? Yep. The nurse. And see they are considered way more expendable, b/c they aren't the ones bringing in the revenue per se. Games abound. You live with it or you don't.

Look. I aint a nurse. But that doesn't mean I don't know what goes on. I hear what your saying.

Some of these things are pathologies of power. Some comprise a systemic design flaw. But decisions is medicine go in one direction. If that wasn't the case. Then you and I. Both who no doubt have tip-toed around the dragon egos of our supervising physicians--knowing the whole time which ones would sell our hides to the highest bidder if it came to it--...well. We probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. As premeds.

You don't come this way aimlessly. Not when you dig your way up from the bottom.

I'm sorry. I'm very pro-nurse. But the paradox is permanent. A part of the landscape. No matter what amount of bull**** it incurs. There is also a very good reason for it. No one is trained and given credence by society to execute clinical decisions except physicans, NP's, and PA's. It can be no other way.

And the thing that weakens our case against the institutionalization of physician ego the most is inane and naive belief about what constitutes real clinical duty and acumen. And no one does this more gloriously badly than angry nurses. Who's opinions are protected from not knowing what they don't know.

Myself. If it were not for the annoyance of not having enough autonomy in my own game at work. Would be glad for someone else to be responsible for this human train wreck. And in my last few months at it. I must say I will miss the blissful ignorance.

 

[AbbyNormal]

No one is trained and given credence by society to execute clinical decisions except physicans, NP's, and PA's. It can be no other way.

I respectfully disagree. I make clinical decisions in nursing that sometimes has enormous impact on a patient's well being. Or life itself. I do not practice medicine, I practice nursing and assessing the situation and making clinical decision is an everyday thing.

Do you not know that if a physician gives an improper order that does not follow the standard of care and the nurse implements the order both the doctor and nurse are liable for negligence?

 

[jl lin]

Look. I aint a nurse. But that doesn't mean I don't know what goes on. I hear what your saying.

Some of these things are pathologies of power. Some comprise a systemic design flaw. But decisions is medicine go in one direction. If that wasn't the case. Then you and I. Both who no doubt have tip-toed around the dragon egos of our supervising physicians--knowing the whole time which ones would sell our hides to the highest bidder if it came to it--...well. We probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. As premeds.

You don't come this way aimlessly. Not when you dig your way up from the bottom.

I'm sorry. I'm very pro-nurse. But the paradox is permanent. A part of the landscape. No matter what amount of bull**** it incurs. There is also a very good reason for it. No one is trained and given credence by society to execute clinical decisions except physicans, NP's, and PA's. It can be no other way.

And the thing that weakens our case against the institutionalization of physician ego the most is inane and naive belief about what constitutes real clinical duty and acumen. And no one does this more gloriously badly than angry nurses. Who's opinions are protected from not knowing what they don't know.

Myself. If it were not for the annoyance of not having enough autonomy in my own game at work. Would be glad for someone else to be responsible for this human train wreck. And in my last few months at it. I must say I will miss the blissful ignorance.

First Nas, is that up there 200 characters or less? - LOL

Next, I'm not necessarily pro or con nursing. I just know what I've done and what I know--and also I know there's a lot I don't know and indeed that I will never really know. But I know I've forgotten a lot more than what some know at all in terms of certain conditions, pathologies, treatment, etc.

I'm not marching in any nursing parades. LOL. I'm just saying it depends on the kind of nursing a person has worked and learned in.

I also know, as I said, that medicine tends to honor tradition. Some of that is fine, another part of that is just what it is. Ya know? I don't care who can pizz the furthest anymore, b/c there is ALWAYS someone that somebody has to answer to--whether you have a MD, DO, MD/PhD, or some other alphabet soup after your name. Pretty much all docs have those that they must answer to. A lot of the ego and autonomy business that people think is there is an illusion. But they will find out when they find out.

I agree that the two professions are different in approach. No doubt. Some areas do overlap. . .and a lot. That's all I'm saying. But I'm also saying there is some scary azz accountability in the kind of nursing I've worked.

It's very easy to kill someone. You have to watch what you are doing all the time--and this goes double, triple, and quadruple with the kiddies--especially the neonates. That can be some real scary ****.

I've torn myself up at work, b/c I want to be able to go home and sleep and know that I didn't kill someone--and better yet, that I caught something or worked to help the patient move forward. This is one thing I loved about my adult open heart recovery patients. Many times I could move them along, and they were hugging me after they were extubated and after I pulled their PA caths. It's great when I can catch a murmur or extra sound that no one else caught that is pathogenic in nature. I love helping to get the right "recipe" for that post-op baby that has just gone through stage I Fontan. But you know, even with those kids, the fellows and even the intensivists aren't calling the shots. Mostly it is the cardiothoracic surgeon and often times this is rightfully so.

Honestly it's been a great ride in terms of my experiences in nursing. But nowadays I'm leaning more toward prevention and working with people on an individual basis to avoid or attenuate some of the patient conditions I've had to deal with in critical or acute care. When you work critical care there is an understanding that a certain higher percentage of pts will die no matter what is done for them. It goes with the higher acuity. But there are things that can help prevent people from getting to this point. Obtaining an education in medicine will help me to approach this on a greater level than say NP or PA. I want to be one of the physicians that work with the patients--although some people don't want to take any responsibility for their own health and wellness.

Anyway, at this point I have FAR EXCEEDED your 200 character limit. Sorry Nas. But I do enjoy the back and forth with you. You are cool about it, and I don't feel like it's some kind of struggle.

 

[Nasrudin]

First Nas, is that up there 200 characters or less? - LOL

Next, I'm not necessarily pro or con nursing. I just know what I've done and what I know--and also I know there's a lot I don't know and indeed that I will never really know. But I know I've forgotten a lot more than what some know at all in terms of certain conditions, pathologies, treatment, etc.

I'm not marching in any nursing parades. LOL. I'm just saying it depends on the kind of nursing a person has worked and learned in.

I also know, as I said, that medicine tends to honor tradition. Some of that is fine, another part of that is just what it is. Ya know? I don't care who can pizz the furthest anymore, b/c there is ALWAYS someone that somebody has to answer to--whether you have a MD, DO, MD/PhD, or some other alphabet soup after your name. Pretty much all docs have those that they must answer to. A lot of the ego and autonomy business that people think is there is an illusion. But they will find out when they find out.

I agree that the two professions are different in approach. No doubt. Some areas do overlap. . .and a lot. That's all I'm saying. But I'm also saying there is some scary azz accountability in the kind of nursing I've worked.

It's very easy to kill someone. You have to watch what you are doing all the time--and this goes double, triple, and quadruple with the kiddies--especially the neonates. That can be some real scary ****.

I've torn myself up at work, b/c I want to be able to go home and sleep and know that I didn't kill someone--and better yet, that I caught something or worked to help the patient move forward. This is one thing I loved about my adult open heart recovery patients. Many times I could move them along, and they were hugging me after they were extubated and after I pulled their PA caths. It's great when I can catch a murmur or extra sound that no one else caught that is pathogenic in nature. I love helping to get the right "recipe" for that post-op baby that has just gone through stage I Fontan. But you know, even with those kids, the fellows and even the intensivists aren't calling the shots. Mostly it is the cardiothoracic surgeon and often times this is rightfully so.

Honestly it's been a great ride in terms of my experiences in nursing. But nowadays I'm leaning more toward prevention and working with people on an individual basis to avoid or attenuate some of the patient conditions I've had to deal with in critical or acute care. When you work critical care there is an understanding that a certain higher percentage of pts will die no matter what is done for them. It goes with the higher acuity. But there are things that can help prevent people from getting to this point. Obtaining an education in medicine will help me to approach this on a greater level than say NP or PA. I want to be one of the physicians that work with the patients--although some people don't want to take any responsibility for their own health and wellness.

Anyway, at this point I have FAR EXCEEDED your 200 character limit. Sorry Nas. But I do enjoy the back and forth with you. You are cool about it, and I don't feel like it's some kind of struggle.

Fair enough. As long as out posts average under 200 characters. I can live with that.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's semantics at a certain point anyway.

My only real point is. There's a lot of ego maniacal physicians out there that make it difficult for teams to function. They're allowed to act like 2-3 year-olds throwing tantrums when something isn't the way they want it.

I think the personality hierarchy needs to be dismantled. Because it has nothing to do with the flow of clinical decisions to treatments. If my supervising physician treats me like a punk. He should face the same consequence in any other man to man scenario. I meet him outside and beat his little snotty @ss. OK I've undermined my argument but you see what I'm saying.

But the clinical hierarchy. Well. I see it as absolutely necessary. There can be no democratic process there. You've either learned the responsibility of the decision making process in a trial by fire or you haven't.

And again. I feel like nurses who think they could or should do what physicians do clinically without the trials of responsibility undermine other more important avenues of democracy in the workplace.

 

[mooshika]

I think you could say that moving in with your mother is evidence enough of your commtment to medicine! (mine is delightfully crazy and I still moved back home to do the same)

I know, right? It really is pretty funny. It is a running joke around here. She deserves an award for agreeing to put up with me.

 

[mooshika]

Job description is less important to me than being armed with a certain kind of knowledge base for my practice. At first glace, from a patient's perspective, an NP and a GP/MD appear to do the same thing. The reason I did not go the way of NP and decided to take on the hoop-jumping and ego beatings of med school application process is because I want the education and knowledge base that one gets in medical school and does not get in NP school. It has very little to do with "approach to practice" or "one is more holistic that the other" because once I am an MD I can practice with whatever kind of approach I want to, nursing background or not. It's a choice based on personal taste.

Even if I never went to RN school, I would still have a holistic approach as an MD because that is my interest and it will carry over. NP school doesn't give you the science that you get in med school. At this point, all that would be left for me for NP aside from the clinical hours are a bunch of community health and squishy psychology, soft science type classes that are in my opinion a waste of time especially given the fact that I have already been working in human services and have a lot of other work experience and life experience already. The areas where I need more education are in the "medical" sciences. So, in interviews, I have said that there is nothing "wrong" with nursing, I just want more education and more practical responsibility than I can get in nursing.

 

[jl lin]

But the clinical hierarchy. Well. I see it as absolutely necessary. There can be no democratic process there. You've either learned the responsibility of the decision making process in a trial by fire or you haven't.

And again. I feel like nurses who think they could or should do what physicians do clinically without the trials of responsibility undermine other more important avenues of democracy in the workplace.

Nas there is accountability and trials of responsibility. It is determined, for the most part, within the scope of practice and then the standards of practice within that scope.

It is also different between physicians. So an internal medicine physician is not doing cardiothoracic surgery--he will not be supported by his or her licensing board to take this on as some form of routine practice.

Just as physicians can have different scopes and standards of practice--though many of those standards will be the same, so also it is with nurses.

You are accountable as the particular practitioner within your licensed and certified scope of practice.

So nurses aren't trying to work beyond that scope without the appropriate structure in place, b/c they will NOT get any support legally--and in fact could lose what right of practice and support they have if they move outside of it without the right structure and coverage. But this is true for all licensed entities--and it is especially tight within the whole of healthcare and medicine.

It's a misnomer to think that nurses by virtue of their profession want to be physicians or usurp their roles. The very nature of nursing is it's own special profession and applied science, period. They will always be some amount of overlap, and there will always or should always be accountability of each practitioner within his or her scope of practice and by way of standards of practice and best practices.

So what you may be describing or what some have this unrealistic fear of doesn't really exist. Sure you may find a person trippin' here and there; but mostly nah. But it's not trippin' if ther is accountability in terms of the following:

Assessment

Diagnosis - nurses have their own sets and means of diagnosing; however, they must KNOW medical diagnoses and treatments and complications and such in order to practice safely within their scope of practice.

Planning

Implementation

Evaluation

This process is not dissimilar from medicine's approach. The difference is in the focus. While nurses should know pathophysiologies, their focus is by definition on patient's resonses to various condition, diseases, situations, etc. Medicine is more focused primarily on the pathophysiology by disease definition.

Yes, there's some issues with semantics in that. But if we respect those parameters it limits problems and confusion. Make no mistake about it. If I have a patient in fulminating pulmonary edema, I sure as heck better know by way of presentation, diagnostics, and pathophysiology what is going on with him. If not, in my view I would either have to be a novice RN in my area, or a lame, numb nuts RN in my area.

Most of the people that I've worked with in critical care are drawn there b/c of all the puzzle fitting, analysis, and thinking. An excellent critical care nurse is doing this without even thinking about it--they are thinking, but they aren't thinking about thinking about it, b/c it becomes second nature. And when there are unusual things going on, we all are putting our heads together.

But since nursing deals with the art and science of patient responses and is very holistic, as a nurse, I have do a ton of other things to do at the same time, and it takes focus off of looking at things pathologically at times.

And that is another reason I choose to pursue medicine. Those other things are fine and great, and I don't consider them beneath me AT ALL. Every person will be in need as a patient one day, one way or another. It's just that as I start to really hone in on things pathophys-wise and in terms of treatment dynamics, other needs of patients can pull me away from that focus.

Yes we prioritize, but it is an enormous juggling act, and again focusing on those other needs takes time away from looking at things more deeply at times.

What keeps us from missing things even tough we are juggling many things--and this may seem ironic, is b/c we in these settings have less patients but they are sicker--and we are there for them the whole 8, 10, 12, or 16 hours at a pop. The docs still have a load of multiple critical care patients and those that have to be seen in the ED or other areas. This is what I mean when I say they aren't and cannot be omnipresent. But the fact that we can hone in on one, two or three critically ill patients is what gives us the edge--and that's a big part of the point of critical care units in the first place. So every freaking blip that comes across the CR monitor we pretty much see. The second the patient's u.o. drops off or the chest tube bleeding picks up or that there is an elevation in the patient pCO2 and a drop in his pH arterially or by way of whatever gases we are using, we see. We are constantly on top of labs and really everything. So if you work in the right critical care areas as a RN for a good enough period of time, you will learn a lot of medicine--b/c as you see things and respond appropriately you are also looking things up and sharing studies and these patients are great in the sense that so much can be learned from what is going on with them.

Oh well. I hope that gives a little of the perspective.

But don't think most nurses want to be physicians. Truth be told, many nurses love the art and science of nursing practice--and are perfectly fine with sticking to that which is within their scope of practice.

Listen I had a surgeon that wanted me to go too far with irrigating into someone's heart--patient was in our SICU with retractors and open chest, yada, yada. My position was that whatever is inside the thorax that needed direct external contact was outside of my scope of practice. I'm not covered for it if something goes wrong. I'll suction into the chest tube--we do think with kids. I'll irrigate to a point if the parameters are clearly set and within my scope of practice, but I'm not touching the heart--especially while not in the OR with surgeon or w/o qualified supervision.

And you know the big reason why not? Because the second something goes wrong, someone will try to trace it back to nursing--to me. Because that is the other sad side of medicine and healthcare. Mostly it's not a Harry Truman kind of deal. Many aren't truly saying "The buck stops here" where problems arise. Everyone is out to cover their own arses.

Now, say if we were in a code and for some bizarre reason there was no one to do internal compression. Yes, I'd do that, just like I would use the internal paddles--b/c I know the difference in use. But mostly you function as safely as possible and you let those that are expert and work in the area handle that which they are expert in. It's not a matter of being afraid to do something or being too "cover-my-azzish." It's a matter of functioning with reasonable and most effective standards of safety--and limiting potential problems. Now if someone that is expert is teaching me and is accountable, that may be different. But in general, I have practice safetly in many situations over many years by knowing my scope of practice and adhering to proper standards and best practices.

Mostly it's just about common sense. If you don't routinely do something, it is only sensible to let those that are more expert do what needs to be done. If you are in learning mode, then the expectation is that someone that is more expert would be guiding you through.


But yes there is something that is true. When things go wrong, nurses can and have been used as scapegoats. I wish I can say that I haven't seen this but I have.

And it also has to do with the fact that it is the doctor that tends to bring the revenue into the hospital. So they will get preference. Nurses are considered a pull from revenue, not an increase in revenue. Although I think with recent studies and the push for Magnet, this may be starting to change--though ultimately I think it often is the reputation of the surgeon or physician/s that bring people in to particular hospitals. But outcomes will suck without great nursing as well--and this will effect the hospital's reputation and thus income.


You just have to be careful in many ways in healthcare. And it's not merely about getting sued. It's about effecting someone's life--either in shortening it or affecting quality of life. Most don't want to live knowing that we caused more harm to someone. That's a hell of a thing to have to live with.

So, really, most nurses are pretty cagey about doing things outside their scope of practice. They are extra sensitive in protecting their licenses; b/c if they don't, they know no one else will.

And that also goes for NPs or other advanced practice nurses. They are very OK with staying within their scope of practice. They aren't interested in taking over physicians's fields. But yes, I say I have some concerned about CRNAs, only b/c I have a problem with them making more than a number of physicians. It bothers me that there are CRNAs that make more than a number of family practice docs. I mean I know the patients the CRNAs are dealing with are mostly critical areas as compared with sick visits; but overall in terms of practice, it just doesn't seem right to me. But that is another thread I guess.


Wow Nas. I exceeded the 200 limit again!

 

[Nasrudin]

.....


Wow Nas. I exceeded the 200 limit again!

As far as I can tell. (What was the original thread about anyway?) Your thesis seems to indicate medicine is a general continuum of practice. Wherein nurses operate throughout up to their scope of practice.

I can't say I disagree with you. Even if I did have the word stamina to do so. Which I don't.

Whereas I'm indicating a medical/legal hardliner's approach. As a realist. not as a philosophical participant mind you.

Either way. I have great respect for your work and apparent professionalism. So here's to us maybe working together in harmony someday. With you as my guide in how not to kill patients. In all seriousness.

Flabbergasted! That's right. It was about being flabbergasted at the ivory tower dogma against a nursing path to med school. Yeah. F@ck those guys. Who pander to that weak minded b@ll****. I'm flamboozled about it myself.

 

[anavistas]

Great thread. I have heard the voices in my head bounce along the very same corridors.

Another post by Q par excellence.

OP. For certain. This is a gentleman's game from getgo. Normalized to fit the cultural mean of wealth and privilege. And when it's not it's worse still. Corporate interests impose their will. Making the premium for the comeuppance of researchers go up. The clinically and even socially oriented, down. A medical school rises in prestige--read commercial viability--by producing data on salable technologies. This function that operates on them is only limited by whatever popular interests also mandate to them.


By some rough gradient of "fit." You only have this limited range of options.

Sell soul accordingly.

I use your posts as verbal passages, and they are always harder than EK 101, in the same level of the TPR's harder passages...
I don't wonder who writes those beast passages for MCAT. You might be one someday...

 

[mooshika]

As far as I can tell. (What was the original thread about anyway?) Your thesis seems to indicate medicine is a general continuum of practice. Wherein nurses operate throughout up to their scope of practice.

I can't say I disagree with you. Even if I did have the word stamina to do so. Which I don't.

Whereas I'm indicating a medical/legal hardliner's approach. As a realist. not as a philosophical participant mind you.

Either way. I have great respect for your work and apparent professionalism. So here's to us maybe working together in harmony someday. With you as my guide in how not to kill patients. In all seriousness.

Flabbergasted! That's right. It was about being flabbergasted at the ivory tower dogma against a nursing path to med school. Yeah. F@ck those guys. Who pander to that weak minded b@ll****. I'm flamboozled about it myself.

The important thing, other than exposing and agreeing upon the unexamined motives of the ivory tower dogma ahderants - is the use and promotion of words such as "flabbergasted" and "flamboozled." I will take wagers on those who dare me to use such vocabulary in my PS, if I have to apply again this year, and state my case for doctorhood by way of nursinghood.

Being that Nas and Ji lin have left me reeling third-wheel, I will take comfort in having inspired the use of a word, perhaps two words, never before appearing on SDN.

As I have heard before, "be kind to nurses, they keep the doctors from killing their patients." Had I repeated that to my old-school interviewing adcom member Creulla De Ville (the same who, in her outside voice, wondered just how many years someone of my advanced age might plan on practicing in my right mind...) I'm sure my rejection letter would have arrived by light speed and been waiting in my mailbox upon my return from said institution...

 

[jl lin]

As far as I can tell. (What was the original thread about anyway?) Your thesis seems to indicate medicine is a general continuum of practice. Wherein nurses operate throughout up to their scope of practice.

I can't say I disagree with you. Even if I did have the word stamina to do so. Which I don't.

Whereas I'm indicating a medical/legal hardliner's approach. As a realist. not as a philosophical participant mind you.

Either way. I have great respect for your work and apparent professionalism. So here's to us maybe working together in harmony someday. With you as my guide in how not to kill patients. In all seriousness.

Flabbergasted! That's right. It was about being flabbergasted at the ivory tower dogma against a nursing path to med school. Yeah. F@ck those guys. Who pander to that weak minded b@ll****. I'm flamboozled about it myself.

Gotcha!

 

[jl lin]

The important thing, other than exposing and agreeing upon the unexamined motives of the ivory tower dogma ahderants - is the use and promotion of words such as "flabbergasted" and "flamboozled." I will take wagers on those who dare me to use such vocabulary in my PS, if I have to apply again this year, and state my case for doctorhood by way of nursinghood.

Being that Nas and Ji lin have left me reeling third-wheel, I will take comfort in having inspired the use of a word, perhaps two words, never before appearing on SDN.

As I have heard before, "be kind to nurses, they keep the doctors from killing their patients." Had I repeated that to my old-school interviewing adcom member Creulla De Ville (the same who, in her outside voice, wondered just how many years someone of my advanced age might plan on practicing in my right mind...) I'm sure my rejection letter would have arrived by light speed and been waiting in my mailbox upon my return from said institution...

Nah mooshika. You are by no means a 3rd wheel.

I hear what you original point is; but I think both of know that there will be some level of gameplaying going on. I wish it were not so; it's totally not me. I've always been way uncomfortable with it. I say, we have to do the best to stay true to ourselves, but we also have to accept the reality that a good part of the gameplaying will continue. You know they can't tell you not to work in med school if you can hang doing so. So why get in a back and forth with them about it. Just be as open as you can to their perspective. They don't have to know all of your business any more than they have to know the gory details of your sex life. Mostly I think they are just testing people in the interview setting.

 

[mooshika]

The app process is definitely unpredictable, difficult, and even a little painful sometimes. If it's any consolation, it's like that for pretty much everyone. That being said, I do think that most people on this forum have good intentions, even if our tactfulness on occasion leaves something to be desired.

With regard to not wanting to be classmates with "insensitive and nasty" people, you'd best not go to med school at all in that case. As a nurse, you work with physicians; you don't need me to tell you that some of them can be real jerks.


Just give a ballpark estimate. You don't have to be like a bureaucrat and track it down to the fifteen minute interval.


How adcoms view your path will be school-dependent. Not all adcoms are looking for the same thing. This is why you generally don't only apply to one single school.


Most people don't have time to work. Reports of med students working on SDN are greatly exaggerated. But if you can handle your school workload, and you can find a job that will let you work so sporadically, there's nothing inherently wrong with working a few shifts here and there. I don't think anyone said working some shifts means that you wouldn't be a good physician, although again, you would have to guard against letting your schoolwork suffer.


My approach to interviewing is that I want to gather enough information to be able to advocate for that person at the adcom meeting. Obviously I won't advocate for them if I don't think they're a good candidate, but that's relatively uncommon. The problem we generally run into isn't that we're looking for ways to reject people, but rather that we have half a dozen great candidates for every seat. This is why it's important to apply early--sometimes we even don't invite qualified people for interviews simply because we've run out of interview slots.

There is always an element of subjectivity in this app process, but the only way to make it more objective is to do exactly the opposite of what most of us want, which is to rely more heavily on stats. My advice is that you assemble the strongest possible app you can, research your schools thoroughly, and apply strategically to schools that seem like a good fit and that you feel match with your strengths and career goals. Also, sometimes an SDN break is good for the soul. This site can make people a bit neurotic after a while.

Best of luck.

Thanks for this and I fully agree and appreciate your responses, but I wonder about some things...

Why would someone who has been a top student all around suddenly not strive for anything but excellence, and why would someone, by a comment made as such, be deemed "unsuitable" for medical school because they mention they might want to try and work here and there?

I just find it really funny that after all that pre-med and application work, and walking in with these test scores that imply that we are, ummmmm, smartish? (according to the ADCOMS, the scores PROVE our academic and intellectual suitability...) someone in an interview would actually make a comment that implies you may not have thought all this through. It cracks me up. Do you know how long it takes? Do you know you will be essentially out of the workforce for four years? Do you know how old you will be when you finish residency? (oh wait! let me do the math! I hadn't even thought of that... wow, I'll be a really old chick, won't I. I counted wrong before. Geeze, we better forget this, I was pretty stupid not to have thought of that! Thanks for bringing it up!) I don't know. These little details that escaped me... LOL. If it wasn't so silly it would be insulting!


Ahhh, to rant and rave.

 

[mooshika]

Nah mooshika. You are by no means a 3rd wheel.

I hear what you original point is; but I think both of know that there will be some level of gameplaying going on. I wish it were not so; it's totally not me. I've always been way uncomfortable with it. I say, we have to do the best to stay true to ourselves, but we also have to accept the reality that a good part of the gameplaying will continue. You know they can't tell you not to work in med school if you can hang doing so. So why get in a back and forth with them about it. Just be as open as you can to their perspective. They don't have to know all of your business any more than they have to know the gory details of your sex life. Mostly I think they are just testing people in the interview setting.

You are absolutely right. Its part of the game and in the big picture not worth really making an actual issue of it. I don't want to be the one who singlehandedly changes the system - don't care enough. You have to choose your fights.

I agree about the interview process. And for me this is about figuring out what is and is not important in their game strategy. One thing I know for sure is that if anything, I tend to say too much rather than too little in interviews, and this practice has come to a full stop need I continue.

But it is still fun to observe and comment on some of the absurdity, some of it is very funny, and something that people of all professions can identify with. I mean who hasn't had a stupid interview?

 

[Velocity]

I suppose most of the problem I have seen and had personally is getting many mixed messages and answers from people on ADCOMS saying that certain choices that I see as being smart and practical are actually "frowned upon" by ADCOMS for reasons that seem to either come from a double standard (the it's ok to work as a CNA and not be interrogated about it but if you get an RN before med school you are subject to mountains of criticism and interrogation, none of which makes any sense to me whatsoever.)

It's a human process. You can try to make it more objective by making it a numbers game instead, but at the end of the day someone has to read your essays and someone has to sit down and chat with you in an interview. While admissions committees can try to synchronize all of their members by telling them certain traits to look for in candidates, everyone is still going based off of their own personal experiences and biases.

So you're hearing of backlash against people who go to nursing and then go to being a doctor? It may just be bias. Heck, if you ever end up on an admissions committee you'd probably feel a whole lot of sympathy for any candidates making the switch from nursing to doctoring, right? Very likely so, and it makes sense - you'd connect it with your own personal experience.

The best thing that you can do, in my opinion, is try to be the best person that you can be. Don't be judgmental or arrogant, but be sure of yourself and what you want to do. You won't win over everyone who reads your personal statement or who interviews you, but unless you're a mind reader you can't cater to everyone's expectations anyway.

After jumping through all the hoops of this silly game your likelihood of getting rejected is far greater than getting accepted. That said, it's embarassing to communicate the risk you're taking.

Aspiring rock stars and actors do it, too, but I dare say that their chances of succeeding are less than ours.