Flaws in optometry?

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najahabraham

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hey everyone, I'm a pre-opt student and am about to start a capstone project. I was wondering what suggestions you guys had as to what the field is lacking that I could use to improve on. It could be anything as simple as the procedures in regular eye exams, I just need a little help deciding what problem to solve for my capstone. It's urgent.

Thanks!

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hey everyone, I'm a pre-opt student and am about to start a capstone project. I was wondering what suggestions you guys had as to what the field is lacking that I could use to improve on. It could be anything as simple as the procedures in regular eye exams, I just need a little help deciding what problem to solve for my capstone. It's urgent.

Thanks!

One thing is that many states do not offer OD's enough protection, in the form of legislation, against corporate interference in the practice of optometry. Bottomline is that OD's should not be in the employ of retail corporations, opticians, and other lay persons.
 
. Bottomline is that OD's should not be in the employ of retail corporations, opticians, and other lay persons.[/QUOTE]

That would leave many optometrists out of work and looking for jobs in private practice, healthcare centers- clinics, hospitals, etc......Majority of ODs would have no employment even part time let alone full time has been difficult to find nowadays.


Field is lacking leadership and unity on a National level. Research on the latest info on the division of Optometry based on board certification. Also, optometry is a regulated profession from state to state.

I wish I can tell you to stay away from Optometry and enter a worthwhile field where you'll be able to get your return on your investment back and then some but I'll be wasting my breath.
 
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. Bottomline is that OD's should not be in the employ of retail corporations, opticians, and other lay persons.

That would leave many optometrists out of work and looking for jobs in private practice, healthcare centers- clinics, hospitals, etc......Majority of ODs would have no employment even part time let alone full time has been difficult to find nowadays.
.[/QUOTE]

so OD's are forced to endure unethical breaches on their practices and other such related pressures by retailers and other lay people. All so we can artificially prop up the job market for OD's...maybe if OD's are lucky they will let beauty salons employ them to prescribe colored contacts or restasis for their clientele. Or better still just open some more OD schools so that they can hire some of those out of work ODs, and so those ODs will, temporarily at least, have a job.
 
so OD's are forced to endure unethical breaches on their practices and other such related pressures by retailers and other lay people.


Can you cite examples how ODs are forced to endure unethical breaches on their practice? What exactly do you mean by this?
I'm against the OD schools the 5 that have opened up past 5-6 years. The AOA has done nothing to stop this.
 
so OD's are forced to endure unethical breaches on their practices and other such related pressures by retailers and other lay people.


Can you cite examples how ODs are forced to endure unethical breaches on their practice? What exactly do you mean by this?
I'm against the OD schools the 5 that have opened up past 5-6 years. The AOA has done nothing to stop this.

influencing doctor recommendations regarding treatment, care, etc. In other words either the doctor encourages sales of products, even specific products, or this may weigh heavily on their job security. Even controlling the way in which the doctor renders care, how many pt's per hour, whether dilation is performed, influencing/controlling fee schedules, fee splitting, basically defining the scope of practice and level of care provided (as if some optician or other lay person could make such a determination), etc
 
From the aforementioned, you have no clue what you are talking about. The majority of ODs who work in retail/corporate stores render care to their patients with no regard to management. How do they control your care? They treat corneal infiltrates, ulcers, abrasions, irits, conjunctivitis-bacterial-alleric- and bill or charge as a "medical exam." If the pt wants to be dilated, all the ODs I know who work for retail-corporate dilate their pts without management having any say.

So if you suggest the pt get AR coating or transition or no line bifocal, what difference is there if you applied the same to private practice? Pts per hr? Whatever walks thru the door or as many pts are scheduled that day plus walk ins. I've never heard anyone working in retail being told to examine X amount of pts in X amt of time. You work as fast as you can according to your schedule. How does this differ from private practice who see 20-25-30 pts a day ? Having techs do work up- topographies, VF's, etc.....?

In fact, if you knew anything about corporate practice, you would realize that many nowadays want medical services and billing to subsidize and increase their gross to net profits because selling glasses might not cut it anymore.

Are you really a practicing OD or disillusioned with your cloud of thinking?
 
From the aforementioned, you have no clue what you are talking about. The majority of ODs who work in retail/corporate stores render care to their patients with no regard to management. How do they control your care? They treat corneal infiltrates, ulcers, abrasions, irits, conjunctivitis-bacterial-alleric- and bill or charge as a "medical exam." If the pt wants to be dilated, all the ODs I know who work for retail-corporate dilate their pts without management having any say.

So if you suggest the pt get AR coating or transition or no line bifocal, what difference is there if you applied the same to private practice? Pts per hr? Whatever walks thru the door or as many pts are scheduled that day plus walk ins. I've never heard anyone working in retail being told to examine X amount of pts in X amt of time. You work as fast as you can according to your schedule. How does this differ from private practice who see 20-25-30 pts a day ? Having techs do work up- topographies, VF's, etc.....?

In fact, if you knew anything about corporate practice, you would realize that many nowadays want medical services and billing to subsidize and increase their gross to net profits because selling glasses might not cut it anymore.

Are you really a practicing OD or disillusioned with your cloud of thinking?

much of what you describe can be true......sometimes, but you have your head in the sand if you don't think what I am saying is also true. In my neck of the woods, the NE, what I describe is pervasive, and everyone knows it. Pts know it, and doctors know it. Having experienced these things first hand as a new grad, I can say with confidence that this is the rule not the exception. Ever heard of America's best? just one really obvious example but I think "the lady dost protest too much" if you think that is an isolated example.
 
If everything is true in what you are saying, and patients and doctors know it then do something about it. If patients knew any better wouldn't they go elsewhere for annual eye check ups? Millions of Americans across the United States eat at Mcdonald's every day knowing well that it is the biggest junk food out there. So what's stopping them from not eating there?
In my neck of the woods, there is no America's Best. If you're not happy having worked there change it.
 
If everything is true in what you are saying, and patients and doctors know it then do something about it.

In my opinion, that's the problem - there are too many forces working against anyone who really wants to make a difference. Look at the AOS. I won't argue that they didn't go about things in a way that might not have been constructive, but they were trying to counterbalance all of the stupidity that the AOA/ABO has been up to. They were trying to make a difference, and they did, but what does it really amount to? Nothing - the profession is still on a nosedive and has yet to hit the ground.


If patients knew any better wouldn't they go elsewhere for annual eye check ups? Millions of Americans across the United States eat at Mcdonald's every day knowing well that it is the biggest junk food out there. So what's stopping them from not eating there?

I think you answered your own question. Some people like being fat, sloppy McDonalds patrons. They don't care that the McRib sandwich meal they just ordered will have enough calories to fuel 3 days of heavy manual labor, even though they have plans to sit and watch Honey-Boo-Boo for those 72 hours.

In my neck of the woods, there is no America's Best. If you're not happy having worked there change it.

America's Best is not the problem, it's a symptom of the problem, so getting away from it really don't solve anything. The profession is still doomed to meet its final resting place as a commercial disaster, in which ODs are paid little to provide the necessary Rx for corporations to make their money. There will always be a small percentage of ODs who do respectable work, even after the end comes, but the majority will be fed into the cesspool that is low-end commercial optometry.

If you don't believe what others and I are saying, just go talk to a graduating class of OD students, and ask them where they're going. If I hear another, "I'll be working at Walmart, Sams, and Pearle for a year or so, just 'till I get my feet wet," then I may just have to leave optometry for good. Oh wait - I already did.
 
In my opinion, that's the problem - there are too many forces working against anyone who really wants to make a difference. Look at the AOS. I won't argue that they didn't go about things in a way that might not have been constructive, but they were trying to counterbalance all of the stupidity that the AOA/ABO has been up to. They were trying to make a difference, and they did, but what does it really amount to? Nothing - the profession is still on a nosedive and has yet to hit the ground.




I think you answered your own question. Some people like being fat, sloppy McDonalds patrons. They don't care that the McRib sandwich meal they just ordered will have enough calories to fuel 3 days of heavy manual labor, even though they have plans to sit and watch Honey-Boo-Boo for those 72 hours.



America's Best is not the problem, it's a symptom of the problem, so getting away from it really don't solve anything. The profession is still doomed to meet its final resting place as a commercial disaster, in which ODs are paid little to provide the necessary Rx for corporations to make their money. There will always be a small percentage of ODs who do respectable work, even after the end comes, but the majority will be fed into the cesspool that is low-end commercial optometry.

If you don't believe what others and I are saying, just go talk to a graduating class of OD students, and ask them where they're going. If I hear another, "I'll be working at Walmart, Sams, and Pearle for a year or so, just 'till I get my feet wet," then I may just have to leave optometry for good. Oh wait - I already did.

What are you doing now that you left Optometry? Im super curious what other career options an optometry student may have.
 
What are you doing now that you left Optometry? Im super curious what other career options an optometry student may have.

Took over a business that's been in my family for several generations. I've been at it for a little over a year, and I've never looked back at my OD degree. It's collecting dust in my basement, although I've kept my license active, just to have something to justify my student loan payment every month.

I make considerably more than what I made as an OD, and although my work stress level has increased substantially, I never go to sleep at night wondering if the source of my income will be completely dried up in a decade. I'm in control of what I do, not pie-in-the-sky dreamers at the AOA/ABO, or some auditor at CMS or VSP.

No business is perfect, and mine is no exception, but I'm not on a ship that's sinking anymore. (Unless, of course, you consider that I'm part of the US economy, which is nosediving silently toward rock bottom). Optometry can't say the same thing. It's on a path to poop-town and I left the train before it pulled into the last station.

I made a very expensive mistake buying an OD, and realized it after the money had been burned away. There wills surely be many others who will come to the same conclusion, after it's far too late.
 
Jason K, I applaud you. I'm staggered at what Optometry school tuition costs these days (private) and wonder how in the world will todays graduating ODs ever make that money back if they are in debt with thousands of dollars in student loans when optometric salaries have NOT kept up with inflation and for many people salaries have been on the decline.

You are a straight shooter. You don't sugar coat and speak straight from your heart. Unlike several high officials in our profession who double talk and we all know in the end it's all about the $$$$$$ for them and their elite group.

Wish you continued success in your family business endeavors.
 
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@Jason K

just curious, where was it that you were practicing? And how far did you venture out in terms of locations?
 
Took over a business that's been in my family for several generations. I've been at it for a little over a year, and I've never looked back at my OD degree. It's collecting dust in my basement, although I've kept my license active, just to have something to justify my student loan payment every month.

I make considerably more than what I made as an OD, and although my work stress level has increased substantially, I never go to sleep at night wondering if the source of my income will be completely dried up in a decade. I'm in control of what I do, not pie-in-the-sky dreamers at the AOA/ABO, or some auditor at CMS or VSP.

No business is perfect, and mine is no exception, but I'm not on a ship that's sinking anymore. (Unless, of course, you consider that I'm part of the US economy, which is nosediving silently toward rock bottom). Optometry can't say the same thing. It's on a path to poop-town and I left the train before it pulled into the last station.

I made a very expensive mistake buying an OD, and realized it after the money had been burned away. There wills surely be many others who will come to the same conclusion, after it's far too late.


Can you tell us more what your new business involves? Real estate? Restaurant?
 
Can you tell us more what your new business involves? Real estate? Restaurant?

I'd say the most accurate description would be a consulting firm. That's about as far as I'd like to go on description, though.
 
Would anyone here recommend post-OD degrees in similar/related fields? A Ph.D. in vision science, for instance? Or an MD? (lol, but seriously wondering.) Means more schooling, I know, but I'm just wondering..
 
Would anyone here recommend post-OD degrees in similar/related fields? A Ph.D. in vision science, for instance? Or an MD? (lol, but seriously wondering.) Means more schooling, I know, but I'm just wondering..

Only if you're planning a career in academia.

If I were to go for a post-OD degree, I'd go for a Master's Degree in something like Nutrition, making sure the program is approved by the American Dietetics Association, and then go for Registered Dietician certification. That way, you can pursue a path in optometric academia OR, when optometry implodes upon itself, you can get a job as a Registered Dietician and make equal or more $$ doing that.

I haven't decided if I should continue being an optometrist until I retire OR if I should quit in the next few years and pursue something else.

As it is - you can't open cold anywhere without a sub-specialty such as VT. I have friends who didn't make profit in their new optometry practice until they'd been open for five years. They really struggled. Almost went bankrupt several times. They were questioning whether they could even make a living being optometrists. And now, finally, they're making as much as as a waitress or a bartender. And that's considered success in this profession.

I mean WHY would anyone invest so much time and money just to starve? Why even goto college? Where's the motivation?

Looking 20 years down the road - I don't think optometry will be a viable way to make a living. I mean, the optometry schools and the AOA have sold us out by pumping out 1000 new graduates every year. We're a dime a dozen.

I'm saving $$ for college tuition.

If I were to return to school, I'd either pursue becoming a Nutritionist OR going into the field of Botany, horticulture or landscape design. If you had the stomach for it (and I don't) a great field that's in demand is Lab technicians (the people in hospital labs who analyse feces, blood, plasma and who draw blood). That's probably because of high risk of needle-sticks and because it's absolutely disgusting.

I could qualify for Medical School. I had a high undergrad gpa. Believe it or not ... I never even applied for Med school. I actually wanted to be an optometrist! Seriously. But now, I wouldn't goto med school unless the government paid ALL my tuition, ALL my books, my housing, health insurance and food and a healthy stipend for my residency training -- and that's because of Obamacare. They'd have to kiss my *ss ROYALLY to get me to goto med school, now!

Hey ... if they did pay for ALL OF IT ... I'd consider med school. But I'd have to exit med school 100% debt free because drs don't make money anymore. If I'm going to work for breadcrumbs, my education had better be free.
 
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Took over a business that's been in my family for several generations. I've been at it for a little over a year, and I've never looked back at my OD degree. It's collecting dust in my basement, although I've kept my license active, just to have something to justify my student loan payment every month.

I make considerably more than what I made as an OD, and although my work stress level has increased substantially, I never go to sleep at night wondering if the source of my income will be completely dried up in a decade. I'm in control of what I do, not pie-in-the-sky dreamers at the AOA/ABO, or some auditor at CMS or VSP.

No business is perfect, and mine is no exception, but I'm not on a ship that's sinking anymore. (Unless, of course, you consider that I'm part of the US economy, which is nosediving silently toward rock bottom). Optometry can't say the same thing. It's on a path to poop-town and I left the train before it pulled into the last station.

I made a very expensive mistake buying an OD, and realized it after the money had been burned away. There wills surely be many others who will come to the same conclusion, after it's far too late.

I think that's totally awesome. :thumbup:
 
Only if you're planning a career in academia.

If I were to go for a post-OD degree, I'd go for a Master's Degree in something like Nutrition, making sure the program is approved by the American Dietetics Association, and then go for Registered Dietician certification. That way, you can pursue a path in optometric academia OR, when optometry implodes upon itself, you can get a job as a Registered Dietician and make equal or more $$ doing that.

I haven't decided if I should continue being an optometrist until I retire OR if I should quit in the next few years and pursue something else.

As it is - you can't open cold anywhere without a sub-specialty such as VT. I have friends who didn't make profit in their new optometry practice until they'd been open for five years. They really struggled. Almost went bankrupt several times. They were questioning whether they could even make a living being optometrists. And now, finally, they're making as much as as a waitress or a bartender. And that's considered success in this profession.

The bolded are false.
 
I could qualify for Medical School. I had a high undergrad gpa. Believe it or not ... I never even applied for Med school. I actually wanted to be an optometrist! Seriously. But now, I wouldn't goto med school unless the government paid ALL my tuition, ALL my books, my housing, health insurance and food and a healthy stipend for my residency training -- and that's because of Obamacare. They'd have to kiss my *ss ROYALLY to get me to goto med school, now!

Hey ... if they did pay for ALL OF IT ... I'd consider med school. But I'd have to exit med school 100% debt free because drs don't make money anymore. If I'm going to work for breadcrumbs, my education had better be free.[/QUOTE]


You would go to med school if the government paid all your education and you came out debt free because you are not going to work for breadcrumbs b/c of Obamacare etc......
I'm not sure you if are up to date with med school statistics. Entering GPA's are 3.7 -4.0 with stellar MCAT scores 34 and up. Admission recently has been fierce to med schools and those with 3.5 3.6 gpas and mcats above 30 who are rejected from US schools despite having great stats go to Caribbean med schools.
Derms, Radilogy, Orthopedics and even IM are still making anywhere from 300 to 1/2 million a year even IM over 200K with managed care.
Go do some research and reconsider. Your aforementioned statements make NO SENSE.
 
"No business is perfect, and mine is no exception, but I'm not on a ship that's sinking anymore. (Unless, of course, you consider that I'm part of the US economy, which is nosediving silently toward rock bottom). Optometry can't say the same thing. It's on a path to poop-town and I left the train before it pulled into the last station.
I made a very expensive mistake buying an OD, and realized it after the money had been burned away. There wills surely be many others who will come to the same conclusion, after it's far too late."

I'm not sure I did this right but the above is a quote from arch-negativist Jason K - an apparently non- practicing optometrist who has an axe to grind.
The optometric world is changing. Everyone knows it. Adapt or fail. It has always been thus. The world goes on and old paradigms are just that - old failures. Corporate optometry is not bad - just the next phase. These cycles take time to play out. I work for America's Best. What I have read in this forum about this reminds me of my youth in a segregated culture of white supremacy. Talking about "them" in terms of failed ideologies. AOA leadership knows what corporate optos do and recognize it as legitimate, because it is. The "free eye exam" and the 8 minute exam are bugaboos that prideful people say to manipulate the "low info" person into the party line. My exams are typically 15 min and no one- no one- goes away with questions un answered. My explanations are concise and direct. My patients can't afford the inflated exam fees if "private" optos. We would love to refer to a "medical optometrist' but they either don't exist in my large metro area or are too ideological to ask for referrals - in either case this refutes Jason K''s position of a moral high ground. Get real and succeed.
 
I work for America's Best.

Would you mind sharing your experience as an OD at America's Best? On this forum, America's best has very low regard. Im sure many pre-opts and OD students would be curious to know the experiences you have had there and how long you have been practicing there.
 
Hello, just found this forum, and when I saw this last post I thought it was worth joining up just to answer. I am not the same America's Best OD as above but I have worked for the company for over ten years. It disturbs me how much false information is out there about America's. In many ways it is a great company to work for, but if you are a gung-ho medical-leaning OD then it may not be for you. We don't have OCTs and all the latest equipment. We do a lot of routine, primary care, returning annuals. We also treat and prescribe for infections and inflammations, remove foreign bodies, dilate patients (given, some docs more than others), detect pathology or systemic issues and refer when needed, many of the things a "normal" practice does. There may be America's docs that treat glaucoma as well, I don't personally because I think the patient deserves a doc who does have all the best monitoring equipment, so I refer those out. We have times (tax season!) where you can be quite busy, but usually the rest of the year is pretty average as far as patient load. It depends on the area you're in.

I enjoy my corporate job in part because I do not enjoy running a business. Worrying about net vs gross, hiring and firing, or dealing with everything from labs and frame reps to the exterminator and window-washer. I like knowing that if there's a blizzard and no patients show, I am still getting my regular paycheck. I have been with the company long enough to have a bunch of vacation and PTO time each year. I have health insurance, dental, and a 401(k). CE and malpractice insurance are provided as well, and upper management is supportive.

Sure, it was my plan to open up a private office in my hometown after graduation. It also seemed to be the plan of several other ODs who got there first while I went through school. So I became an associate to a private-practice OD in another area instead, found out what I liked and what I didn't (as spelled out above), and after a few years chose not to buy into the practice.

America's Best is not for everyone, I get that. But I would like for other ODs and pre-op students to know that all those ridiculously bad things you hear are exaggerations or simply not true. I hope this wasn't too long, and I hope the other doctor responds as well. YOU choose to be a good doctor or not, it doesn't matter where you practice.
 
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Hello, just found this forum, and when I saw this last post I thought it was worth joining up just to answer. I am not the same America's Best OD as above but I have worked for the company for over ten years. It disturbs me how much false information is out there about America's. In many ways it is a great company to work for, but if you are a gung-ho medical-leaning OD then it may not be for you. We don't have OCTs and all the latest equipment. We do a lot of routine, primary care, returning annuals. We also treat and prescribe for infections and inflammations, remove foreign bodies, dilate patients (given, some docs more than others), detect pathology or systemic issues and refer when needed, many of the things a "normal" practice does. There may be America's docs that treat glaucoma as well, I don't personally because I think the patient deserves a doc who does have all the best monitoring equipment, so I refer those out. We have times (tax season!) where you can be quite busy, but usually the rest of the year is pretty average as far as patient load. It depends on the area you're in.

I enjoy my corporate job in part because I do not enjoy running a business. Worrying about net vs gross, hiring and firing, or dealing with everything from labs and frame reps to the exterminator and window-washer. I like knowing that if there's a blizzard and no patients show, I am still getting my regular paycheck. I have been with the company long enough to have a bunch of vacation and PTO time each year. I have health insurance, dental, and a 401(k). CE and malpractice insurance are provided as well, and upper management is supportive.

Sure, it was my plan to open up a private office in my hometown after graduation. It also seemed to be the plan of several other ODs who got there first while I went through school. So I became an associate to a private-practice OD in another area instead, found out what I liked and what I didn't (as spelled out above), and after a few years chose not to buy into the practice.

America's Best is not for everyone, I get that. But I would like for other ODs and pre-op students to know that all those ridiculously bad things you hear are exaggerations or simply not true. I hope this wasn't too long, and I hope the other doctor responds as well. YOU choose to be a good doctor or not, it doesn't matter where you practice.
Just curious, are you guys doing foreign bodies, red eyes, etc. through the medical insurance? Or is it some kind of flat fee?


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