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flight medicine
Started by Arctic Char
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I'm beginning to realize that picking up patients from little rural hospitals with random non-EM docs is at times comparable to extracting patients from trauma scenes!
LSU-Earl K. Long EM residency has flight integrated into their program. It's pretty cool...you hang out at the BAton Rouge Airport and fly to accident scenes all around louisiana.
I flew around in Huey's as a corpsmen during Desert Shield/storm with HMLA-169 out of camp P in cali.....I flew on a gunship (no medivac dedicated helos in a unit with cobra and huey gunships) and LOVED IT. Then I went to Afghanistan in 2002-2003 as a medic with a combat eng unit from Louisiana NAtional guard and crashed on a CH-47 (chinook)...and learned to hate those things. I love the Blackhawk.....**** those are fun. But nothing compares to being strapped onto the floor of a huey with a gunbelt ...dangling the legs over the side......memories
anyways...check out LSU Em in baton rouge......baton rouge rocks...everyone loves to party/tailgate at lsu football games (you also get to work the games at tiger stadium)
I flew around in Huey's as a corpsmen during Desert Shield/storm with HMLA-169 out of camp P in cali.....I flew on a gunship (no medivac dedicated helos in a unit with cobra and huey gunships) and LOVED IT. Then I went to Afghanistan in 2002-2003 as a medic with a combat eng unit from Louisiana NAtional guard and crashed on a CH-47 (chinook)...and learned to hate those things. I love the Blackhawk.....**** those are fun. But nothing compares to being strapped onto the floor of a huey with a gunbelt ...dangling the legs over the side......memories
anyways...check out LSU Em in baton rouge......baton rouge rocks...everyone loves to party/tailgate at lsu football games (you also get to work the games at tiger stadium)
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I'd recommend the University of Arkansas EM program if you want to be very active in flight medicine.
They have rotations set aside for time on the helicopter, but you can also moonlight as a flight physician throughout your residency.
It seems to me that you'd get more exposure here than at any of the other programs I personally interviewed at.
I am sneaking into this thread for a moment, I am a premed (can you guess what i want to go into ) but happen to work for an aeromedical company out of Dallas. < Careflite> If any of you are looking to do a ride out to see the differences between a scene flight and interfacility send me a PM and I can send you the information.... okay back to your thread ..... 😀
Cleveland Metro does a good deal of flight time from what I understand (I'm in the osteopathic community in Cleveland), but they let residents moonlight on Metro LifeFlight (MLF) once they get their licenses.
almost all the osteopathic EM residents in NE Ohio moonlight on MLF after they've done their first month on MLF. There's tons of opportunities there. MLF has 3 bases, one based at Metro, one on the east side of cleveland, and one in Canton, and there's 2 12 hour shifts at each, so they've gotta fill a ton of shifts over the month. I know people who moonlight once and twice a week on lifeflight
MLF flies S-76's, but word is they're switching to EC-145's, much to the dismay of the staff (for budgetary reasons)
almost all the osteopathic EM residents in NE Ohio moonlight on MLF after they've done their first month on MLF. There's tons of opportunities there. MLF has 3 bases, one based at Metro, one on the east side of cleveland, and one in Canton, and there's 2 12 hour shifts at each, so they've gotta fill a ton of shifts over the month. I know people who moonlight once and twice a week on lifeflight
MLF flies S-76's, but word is they're switching to EC-145's, much to the dismay of the staff (for budgetary reasons)
Look into Cinci. As a second year, you become the pod flight doc and have the potential to fly on every shift you work in the ED as an R2 (yes...every shift) on top of having dedicated shifts throughout your 2nd-4th year. Starting this may, we will go to 48 hour coverage from 36, and it will be a paid elective for 2nd - 4th years to fly.
damn . . . been a while since i perused these pages of emergency med. since then i've had a name change (formerly MtMted), and i've decided i want to be a pathologist in the long run. i'll just get my flying on my own time when i can fly my own chopper . . . even the birds will be jealous . . .
but lots of good input here. i appreciate all the input and hope that it serves others with interest in flight EM . . .
cheers all
but lots of good input here. i appreciate all the input and hope that it serves others with interest in flight EM . . .
cheers all
St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center's EM program in Toledo integrates flight time on Lifeflight system. There are 4 or 5 total choppers in the system, and 2 of those are staffed with 2nd or 3rd year residents as flight docs. Lifeflight dates back to the early 70s and was evidently one of the first flight programs in the country. www.lifeflight.cc
To put a slightly different spin on things entirely--
There are no rules saying you have to go from medical school to residency directly. If you are really crazy about aerospace medicine, flying, etc, and you don't mind being a little nontraditional about your methods, there are way to be a doc and a pilot. I was a navy flight surgeon for 3 years, and as such was mandated to fly at least 4 hours/month, but usually did quite a bit more. I have friends in residency now who flew in Iraq caring for badly injured patients trying to get them to survive from the scene to the nearest battalion aid station. Yes there is a time committment, yes, you will most likely be deployed. However, in the Navy you are a pilot-physician, you go to Pensacola and go through the flight program flying t-34's and the trainer helo (can't remember the model #). You have the opportunity to fly jets, helos, props if you are proactive in getting in the seat. You can jump from navy med to the NASA program as either an astronaut or flight physican for the crews. It is an experience I wouldn't trade away.
Residency will be there whenever.
There are no rules saying you have to go from medical school to residency directly. If you are really crazy about aerospace medicine, flying, etc, and you don't mind being a little nontraditional about your methods, there are way to be a doc and a pilot. I was a navy flight surgeon for 3 years, and as such was mandated to fly at least 4 hours/month, but usually did quite a bit more. I have friends in residency now who flew in Iraq caring for badly injured patients trying to get them to survive from the scene to the nearest battalion aid station. Yes there is a time committment, yes, you will most likely be deployed. However, in the Navy you are a pilot-physician, you go to Pensacola and go through the flight program flying t-34's and the trainer helo (can't remember the model #). You have the opportunity to fly jets, helos, props if you are proactive in getting in the seat. You can jump from navy med to the NASA program as either an astronaut or flight physican for the crews. It is an experience I wouldn't trade away.
Residency will be there whenever.
I have a lot of time for the navy flight surgeon route, but I think this is a little confusing. The navy pilot-physician is a designation for folks rated both as pilots and as physicians. the usual path is naval pilots who later opt for medical school, though there have been a couple of physicians who talked the navy into full two year flight training (god knows how many years you owe them then).
Navy flight surgeons are not navy pilot-physicians. Unless things have changed radically since I looked into it, navy flight surgeons are physicians who go through six months of flight surgeon training, which includes medical training, ground school and some flight time (not a full flight training). You do not come out with a pilot rating and are not signed off to fly any aircraft solo.
Again, big fan of navy flight surgeons, but the very rare navy pilot-physician designation (guys like Capt. Dave Brown, who talked the Navy into the two year flight training and later died with NASA) are not synonymous with flight surgeons (though they often did the flight surgeon course too). Or maybe things have changed?
Will someone please inform me a bit more about what a "flight surgeon" does. I know very little about this, but I always thought this was a doc that did physicals and took care of the pilots from a medical standpoint, not a doc that flew to the rescue of sick people like helicopter EMS....what is the deal? I know they have flight medics which are more like HEMS people, but what is the real benefit to being a pilot and a doc? I have a hard enough time trying to care for the sick arse people in the back of our helicopter, the last thing I want to do is to have the try and fly it at the same time!
You are correct. Flight surgeon is a military term.
A flight surgeon is the guy who sees healthy patients all day, wishing he were actually flying. The Navy has been leading the way on realizing this, so they're allowing their flight surgeons to get a minimum amount of flight training before they're resigned to the clinic. You even get a shiny pair of junior pilot's wings when you graduate mini-flight school, earning you the privledge of operating as pilot in command.. never. BUT, you do get a mandated 4 hours per month of time riding shotgun in whatever your buddy is flying. Hell, he may even let you take the controls and play pilot for a few minutes every now and then.
I realize that was harsh, and probably unfair. Admittedly, in the Air Force/Air Guard its even worse. You get basically zero flight training there. I just get easily annoyed by the military feeding into the rationalizations of the naive. Don't be one of those doctors who, looking for a way out of the clinic, thinks they can go into filght medicine and live a life of adventure with their 6 weeks of NAVY flight training. The reality is much, much lamer than you could possibly imagine. Then again, I didn't go that route so take my opinion for what its worth.
If you absolutely must fly, you can buy a used Pitts S2 for ~$50K and fly a hell of a lot more than you will in the military as a flight doc, and have a lot more fun doing it.
HamOn
Former ANG Pilot
Former "future flight surgeon"
I always thought the term "flight surgeon" was such a genius marketing idea.
Surgery in the air . . . that's so cool!!!
Imagine saying that you have an appointment with your flight surgeon, or that you need to call your flight surgeon your Zoloft refill. It just makes me smile.
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D
deleted109597
I always thought it was based on the size of the unit, ie, one surgeon per flight of troops/equipment. Although that always seemed like a small number of people.
So first off, no actual surgery taking place in the air. Old term left over from military times when all doctors were surgeons.
And yes, the term pilot-physician is a bit misleading. The track for actual dual designators is closing down. The Navy would rather have either a doctor or a pilot. It is near impossible to go from doctoring to piloting, but there are several former pilots who come back through as flight surgeons
Sorry, Ham-I don't think my three years with my squadron were "lame". I admit taking the FS route to avoid the drudgery of being a GMO (general medical officer), and hey, they were offering me a chance to learn how to fly!
As a Navy flight surgeon you have 6 months training in Pensacola, 3 of how to do the job of the flight surgeon, and 3 months in accelerated fixed wing and helo flight training. You do not solo. However, depending on how motivated you are, you can have a good amount of actual stick time.
You have mandated clinic/squadron time, split 50/50. Clinic is spent doing physicals and sick call, and occasionally working the acute care clinic. This all depends on where you end up stationed. I was in Norfolk with a C-2/COD squadron. If you are deployed, you continue to take care of your squadron on the ship. Although not allowed to fly during a cat shot or trap (aka, on or off the carrier), I had a good amount of stick time. On the Marine side of things (Navy docs are assigned to the Marines), you deploy with your squad to where ever they end up, on the LHD (smaller ship than carrier), on base, or in camp in Iraq. Marine flight surgeons usually take care of a smaller group of troops versus the Navy flight surgeon who usually is in charge of an air wing, or all of a carrier's flight personnel.
One of my classmates was a Marine FS, and while in Iraq did her regular job as above, but as she was motivated and interested in EM, requested to go on recovery missions from the smaller battalion aid stations back to the larger surgery units. The stories she tells are over the top. No, she wasn't flying and keeping folks alive at the same time, but she would fly some on the way out, and then try to manage vents, chest tubes and hemorrhages on the way back. Keep in mind, most flight surgeons do a year of intership in whatever field and then go play doctor, based on whatever they picked up and stuck during that year.
Military is military, and as long as you do your research and know what you're getting into, then I encourage it if you have the time and inclination. I came out of it without debt, with a little more experience, some slight improvement in my maturity, and some hefty milage on my liver. I had experiences that I would never be able to get in the civilian world (both good and bad), and would not have done it any other way.
And yes, the term pilot-physician is a bit misleading. The track for actual dual designators is closing down. The Navy would rather have either a doctor or a pilot. It is near impossible to go from doctoring to piloting, but there are several former pilots who come back through as flight surgeons
Sorry, Ham-I don't think my three years with my squadron were "lame". I admit taking the FS route to avoid the drudgery of being a GMO (general medical officer), and hey, they were offering me a chance to learn how to fly!
As a Navy flight surgeon you have 6 months training in Pensacola, 3 of how to do the job of the flight surgeon, and 3 months in accelerated fixed wing and helo flight training. You do not solo. However, depending on how motivated you are, you can have a good amount of actual stick time.
You have mandated clinic/squadron time, split 50/50. Clinic is spent doing physicals and sick call, and occasionally working the acute care clinic. This all depends on where you end up stationed. I was in Norfolk with a C-2/COD squadron. If you are deployed, you continue to take care of your squadron on the ship. Although not allowed to fly during a cat shot or trap (aka, on or off the carrier), I had a good amount of stick time. On the Marine side of things (Navy docs are assigned to the Marines), you deploy with your squad to where ever they end up, on the LHD (smaller ship than carrier), on base, or in camp in Iraq. Marine flight surgeons usually take care of a smaller group of troops versus the Navy flight surgeon who usually is in charge of an air wing, or all of a carrier's flight personnel.
One of my classmates was a Marine FS, and while in Iraq did her regular job as above, but as she was motivated and interested in EM, requested to go on recovery missions from the smaller battalion aid stations back to the larger surgery units. The stories she tells are over the top. No, she wasn't flying and keeping folks alive at the same time, but she would fly some on the way out, and then try to manage vents, chest tubes and hemorrhages on the way back. Keep in mind, most flight surgeons do a year of intership in whatever field and then go play doctor, based on whatever they picked up and stuck during that year.
Military is military, and as long as you do your research and know what you're getting into, then I encourage it if you have the time and inclination. I came out of it without debt, with a little more experience, some slight improvement in my maturity, and some hefty milage on my liver. I had experiences that I would never be able to get in the civilian world (both good and bad), and would not have done it any other way.
Thanks for the info. I agree Wallawalla that flight surgeon is a hell of a marketing term. I sure think the title sounds cool. The job...couldn't pay me enough. But I'm an EM guy that dreads clinic. Flying would be cool, but as Ham said, buy your own plane and fly as much as you want. For now I'll stick to helicopter EMS in the US. HEMS has enough issues with crashes and all that for me to worry about, can't imagine flying in a heli with people shooting at me too!
I realize it wasn't lame. Just more lame than they want you to believe when you sign up. Any experience has its plusses and minusses. The minusses of flight surgery are that when you talk about getting to fly, its always a unique/noteworthy story. Kind of like getting to "fly some on the way out, and then try to manage vents, chest tubes and hemorrhages on the way back". If you did any actul piloting with any frequency, it would be no big deal. If you're going in expecting to get anything close to pilot training, you're going to be disappointed. No offense intended.
That's the take home point. Well said.
HamOn
In the past I have worked as a civilian EMT. I also was a medic in the Army National Guard in till I took a commission. And then became a army flight surgeon after graduation from medical school.
Looking back, I really enjoyed myself a lot more and had more flexibility as a medic. As a flight surgeon. I did get to travel, but I felt like a glorified occupational medicine physician cranking out flight physicals every month. I no longer got the field experience, which I enjoyed.
In my mind at least, there is no comparison to being a military flight surgeon and a civilian flight physician. As a military flight surgeon, I was taking care of relatively young, healthy pilots in a clinic situation. As a flight physician for the most part, I take care of critically ill patients in the pre-hospital environment.
I have a friend who is an expeditionary flight surgeon with NASA. He says it is really fascinating work, but he is taking care of some of the most healthy and motivated people on earth. He really misses the critical care aspects of emergency medicine.
Looking back, I really enjoyed myself a lot more and had more flexibility as a medic. As a flight surgeon. I did get to travel, but I felt like a glorified occupational medicine physician cranking out flight physicals every month. I no longer got the field experience, which I enjoyed.
In my mind at least, there is no comparison to being a military flight surgeon and a civilian flight physician. As a military flight surgeon, I was taking care of relatively young, healthy pilots in a clinic situation. As a flight physician for the most part, I take care of critically ill patients in the pre-hospital environment.
I have a friend who is an expeditionary flight surgeon with NASA. He says it is really fascinating work, but he is taking care of some of the most healthy and motivated people on earth. He really misses the critical care aspects of emergency medicine.
A career as a Starbucks barista?
