FMG's with 99s and applying to neuro for interviews..

[Jonath00]

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On rotation, i met this FMG 'observer' who wants to get matched into Internal Medicine but is applying to neuro as well.

With 99s in USMLE steps 1 and 2, I'm sure he'll get lots of neuro interviews. But it irks me to see that he would end up in Internal Medicine, yet many programs will invite him, when they could've invited a comitted neurology applicant with less scores.

Bummer 🙄

 

[buckley]

Really?
My friends were actually convincing me to go to IM because it's waaaay easier to match...
i love neuro though, which is why I'm going for it... but so far na-a interviews!

 

[Jonath00]

Yeah.. FMGs do that a lot.

infact I was wondering how program directors sort out the applications.
Would a MD.PhD with 15 publications but scores of 80/80 get an interview from Columbia?

 

[buckley]

soundest advice: you'll never know until you try...

 

[sak020]

US grads are getting neurology interviews all over the place while some of the IMGs on other forums with scores in the 90s and neurology observerships are getting rejections from the same places ... When its a choice between US and foreign grads, scores doesnt matter at all

 

[ndspider]

snip

 

[missfrancon]

im an img from oxford medical school applying for neuro match.i had well,i have two interviews already .I wanna say that just cuz im an FMG,its wrong to discriminate against me that neuro is my backup plan.I love neuro and I have worked with top consultants over here in Oxford who are all Partners/Hopkins grads.

 

[ndspider]

im an img from oxford medical school applying for neuro match.i had well,i have two interviews already .I wanna say that just cuz im an FMG,its wrong to discriminate against me that neuro is my backup plan.I love neuro and I have worked with top consultants over here in Oxford who are all Partners/Hopkins grads.

If neuro is your backup plan what do you care? You have neurology as sloppy seconds....

 

[missfrancon]

well im jus saying that people have such misconceptions on imgs.i mean some of us really wanna do neuro.i havent applied for anything else.and to say we dont get interviews as well...well i have two already in top places...maybe alot of imgs dont really have the credentials etc but if u do, seems like things are not as dismal.im only trying to say be hopeful not paranoid is all.

 

[buckley]

i agree miss francon. I am also an img who applied purely in neuro BECAUSE I WANT TO DO NEURO. In fact, it is why I set out the USMLE road...so it is unfair to overgeneralize...

 

[missfrancon]

i have met many imgs, and sure i wont lie whatever is posted is true about SOME of them. but i feel that it is very unfair to generalize us all. i am from a top medical school in the UK and i have all the options here open to me to do neuro iin top hospitals in London. however, i am moving to the states since I am marrying an american so hence my career will be in the states. anyway buckley where are you from? i know it feels so dismal being an IMG, i was feeling it as well but actually its working out better than i expected. so dont give up and i think its all about persistence. and u know what? Residency is what you make of it whether its UK, Harvard, or in Africa. Neurology is neurology is neurology wherever you train. Its up to you as the individual whether you are an IMG or US Grad. And anyway Im British - I dont think we are that awful to work with . Best of Luck to everyone in 2008 Match.

 

[buckley]

Indeed, I thought it was going to be hard, but it is turning out to be harder. I am being advised to apply to back up fields, but I'm sticking it out with neuro for now because this is what I really came here for. I came from a developing country where stroke patients are passed around from one hospital to another because nobody wants to take care of them pro-bono, and the MRI waiting list runs for months in our charity hospital...I thought the US was the best place for me to get residency training in neurology, hopefully learn a bit or two about research as well.
I also could have a pick on the residency slots back home--I have an outstanding academic record, at the risk of sounding arrogant. I could be a resident NOW. And yet here I am praying to all the heavens for just a single chance to interview. I knew about the difficulties of being a noncitizen. I left my family and friends, and my two adorable cats. And for what? Because I wanted to be the best neurologist I could be, whose training will not be hampered by the lack of diagnostics and will be fostered in a spirit of research and optimum patient management. But my-oh-my, there are days when I wonder why God put such a dream in my heart.
That is my commitment to neurology.
Now if only neurology gives me a little thumbs up, I'll be jumping up and down...

Yes, indeed, good luck to us!
Congrats miss franco, so far you are the only IMG I know with 3 interviews! That's inspiring. Hopefully, when the US grads start cancelling or in the *scramble* shudder*, we'll get calls too.

to the original poster, just be dedicated in your work, and I think you'll be fine. Believe me, it will be a VERY fine IMG who will be able to take a slot from an AMG. I am a 99er, and I am still waiting for my turn. Good luck to you too. Just don't overgenralize us, ok? Who knows if you give it a chance, you might see that while there are assess (and I'm not oblivious to thm), there are also many decent IMGs who serve the American people just as fervently as those who learned from this soil. Medicine, after all, is universal, right? : )

 

[ndspider]

Yawn,
Great a FMG and a "catwoman" wrapped up all in one.


Just Kidding



I don't see why training in your own country won't make you a good neurologist? Can you please explain this to me. Are your physical exams different? I understand that MRI imaging helps alot and I know that you have MRI's in england or wherever so enlighten me for I am ignorant.

Maybe brag a little bit more in your reply too.

My point is that I would rather be with people with "westernized" backgrounds... and believe it your not... being from england isn't sore on my eyes.

 

[missfrancon]

im going to take the catwoman should brag a little more as a joke well we have great neuro training including the latest technology in london. infact i had planned to stay here all along to do my training but i fell in love with an american guy. i am moving because we are getting married and so that is the main reason for coming to the states. one of us has to make the transatlantic move and well, he is from arizona so he cant handle the british weather well glad diplomatic relations are good between the states and britain😀

 

[BrainBuff]

The harsh reality is that traditionally in the US, if a program has a lot of FMGs, is seen as a place that americans turned down for whatever reason. The program had no choice but to get FMGs to fill it. FMGs are more likely to get into whatever specialty they can just because they want a place to do a residency. A specialty that comes to mind, Psychiatry. Programs that come to mind - Some private hospitals in New York City and Chicago...

 

[zarbazan]

*.....The harsh reality is that traditionally in the US, if a program has a lot of FMGs, is seen as a place that americans turned down for whatever reason. The program had no choice but to get FMGs to fill it....*

With all due respect, this is utter nonsence. Especially, when it comes to neurology (while you can also find FMGs among current UCSF Radiology residents, for example). It is your prior experience, research and scores what matters, not where you went to school. You think a sane program director will choose a candidate from say, LSU with poor scores, average LORs and no research over an FMG who did several years of research in the US with publications? If so, you must be either dumb or delusional. Neurology programs, from Columbia to Vanderbilt are full of FMGs who are amongst the top residents in their classes. In fact, had you attended the recent ANA meeting at Washington,DC which held a symposium for neurology residents interested in Academic Medicine, you would notice that over 50% of them were FMGs. What you're saying may be true for FP and Psych programs in New York ghettos. Those really do not have any choices. That BY NO MEANS implies that fantastic residency programs cannot have a lot of FMGs. FYI, I am an AMG who went to Loyola and I have 3 FMGs in my residency class in a program which is in top 20 according to US News. Peace 🙂

 

[buckley]

👍 thanks zarzaban! as an FMG applying to neuro, it's nice to see that not all AMGs think of us as lepers to be avoided 🙂 hahaha...i wish i could land in a program with co-residents with an attitude like yours. it somehow rekindles the fire of why I set down the US training road in the first place. good luck!

 

[lumbering]

Sheesh. FMGs are so defensive. If they do poorly, it has more to do with poor english language skills and American sociocultural skills than some intrinsic bias against FMGs. There are tons of FMGs in competitive programs. As long as they're talented, hard working, and sociable, who cares where they came from?

 

[Fencer]

As a program director (of fellowship), I know that ACGME does look for a mix that includes US graduates when evaluating the accreditation site visit of a program. Thus, on equal circumstances a program director might take on a US graduate over a FMG. On the other hand, I have known many FMG that bring a significant prior experience into this country such as a prior neuro residency. There are few programs who would not take any FMG (or incredibly few - once every 5 years) particularly in some Ivy League type of program. I believe that FMGs are a more heterogenous group with some superb individuals.

 

[BrainBuff]

zarbazan, you are wrong, way ...way ..way wrong. I was stating what the "perception" actually is. Again, the harsh reality is that american applicants do not look favorably at programs full of FMGs, period. I already stated some reasons whihc have nothing to do with how qualified the applicants are or not.

This is something that has been shaped up through years and years. You would find FMGs primarily in the specialties that american graduates did not want to go to. Many years ago anesthesiology was one of them, hence the field was full of FMGs. The same happened to Neurology at some point and Psychiatry. You will not find the same numbers of FMGs in Orthopedics, Dermatology, Opthalmology or Neurosurgery.

It is completely disingenous not to acknowledge this fact. Fencer's comment is right on the money.

...and please, do not call me dumb nor delusional. I do happen to know what I am talking about from several discussions with Residency Program Directors and Chairs. I am sorry to have touched off on your sensitivies.

 

[lumbering]

Again, the harsh reality is that american applicants do not look favorably at programs full of FMGs, period.

As a possible future American applicant, I can confirm this, but only if we are talking about true FMGs and not Americans who went to school overseas. I don't care how brilliant or experienced my colleagues are. If they speak poor english (1) or aren't sociable, I would prefer not to work with them. I want to work with someone who can give me relationship advice and laugh at my toilet humor.

1) Fluency is insufficient; There are plenty of FMGs are are fluent and know fancy medical jargon with whom I could never have a deep conversation.

 

[buckley]

As long as they're talented, hard working, and sociable, who cares where they came from?

Actually, this alone is enough to make me smile and feel welcomed🙂 I didn't realize my statement seemed so defensive, but if you look at the eras thread on why AMGs don't like neurology, that sorta hurt. Like our mere presence devalues the program we wish to learn from and contribute to. But as they say, reality bites. So Zarzaban's comment seemed so fresh and welcoming to me 😳 and I just wanted to appreciate that.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of toilet humor, but what relationship advice were you looking for? 😉

 

[zarbazan]

Dear BrainBuff,

This is a free country and you are fully entitled to your "perception" . Furthermore, you can continue looking down upon programs full of FMGs thereby limiting yourself in your choice of residency destinations (if indeed, you are in the process of applying). I personally think your kind of comments are more suitable for a White Supremacist website than for this forum, but then again - I am entitled to my subjective opinion. Irrespective of how "wrong....wrong....wrong" I am, it will not change the fact that most of the programs take pride in having bright and talented FMGs as a part of their residency roster. I do hope (for the sake of your future patients) that you are not as xenophobic in reality as you are trying hard to appear.

BTW, Fencer's comments are indeed right on the money. yet they have nothing in common with what you've said earlier.

 

[zarbazan]

*...Fluency is insufficient; There are plenty of FMGs are are fluent and know fancy medical jargon with whom I could never have a deep conversation...*

Unfortunately, a definition of deep conversation in America is oftentimes limited to discussing favorite baseball team, Toby Keith, weather, or favorite pet. Anything "deeper" is reserved for shrinks. No wander, FMGs don't want to talk to you, there is simply nothing to talk about - you probably know nothing about geography, history, arts and other useless subjects. Oh, wait...You have toilet humor-hurray!!!....Then again, if arrogance and emptiness is what you need to get accepted at Harvard, then by all means, carry on your "deep conversations" 🙂.

 

[beanalones]

I'm an US med student currently applying for neuro residency programs. After reading some of the negative comments in this section from US grads I just have to say thank you for helping to strengthen stereotypes of ugly, stupid Americans. Bravo!
While I agree that the less well ranked programs generally have a larger number of foreign medical grads, I've always assumed that has more to do with the difficulty of determining the quality of foreign med schools compared to US med programs. Unless the foreign med program is considered prestigious by the US medical community, residency programs will probably rank most foreign schools below the least competitive US school b/c they don't know enough about foreign med programs to rank them properly against US programs. This is all just assumptions on my part, but I'd like to think that the US is not the only country that has a monopoly on smart medical grads or excellent medical programs.

 

[BrainBuff]

Dear Zarbazan,

I have never questioned your opinion, because I could not really care less about what it is. I have just stated that you are wrong, wrong and wrong. That's all. I am not going to engage in a discussion with some one that decides to engage in personal attacks for lack of making a good argument. I will be respectful enough to withhold my opinion about the forum that I think you belong to. I will remind you that you are in violation of the Terms of Service of this forum. Find the proper way to inhibit your limbic system some, unless all you have .....is medulla oblongata.

I do not know how your executive functioning is doing, but fencer's comments reiterate what i referred to. You really missed what i was trying to convey.

 

[Fencer]

FMGs are welcomed in 95% of US programs. Many are the best residents for those programs, as shown quantitatively by RITE scores (not the only measure). Others might not be as well trained by their medical school. That is what I meant by heterogeneity as compared to US graduates.

Nationally, there is a shortage for Neurologists, and particularly child Neurologists. There is also a shortage of Neurology faculty. FMGs are needed to take care of baby boomers. US supply is not sufficient.

Disclaimer: I am a FMG MD (7-year program) with a US PhD, and I did my residency/ fellowship at Duke, my first choice. I got interviewed in '91 by 15 programs (including Hopkins, Penn, WashU, Mayo, Michigan, Rochester, Emory, Duke, and Baylor).

 

[BrainBuff]

"The harsh reality is that traditionally in the US, if a program has a lot of FMGs, is seen as a place that americans turned down for whatever reason"

The above has been looked at to some extent. Some programs have come under fire for possible discrimination and the issue is very carefully handled (under the table) to avoid the obvious accusations. Just because it is ugly, it does not mean that it does not occur. Someone's politically correct rant about this, it is just completely disingenous.

Here are some references:
Balon R, Mufti R, Williams M, Riba M: Possible discrimination in recruitment of psychiatry residents? Am J Psychiatry 1997; 154:1608–1609[Abstract/Free Full Text]

Nasir LS: Evidence of discrimination against international medical graduates applying to family practice residency programs. Fam Med 1994; 26:625–629[Medline]

Levey GS: Internal medicine and the training of international medical graduates: a time for open discussion and new approaches. Ann Intern Med 1992; 117:403–407

 

[uberneurd]

As a possible future American applicant, I can confirm this, but only if we are talking about true FMGs and not Americans who went to school overseas. I don't care how brilliant or experienced my colleagues are. If they speak poor english (1) or aren't sociable, I would prefer not to work with them. I want to work with someone who can give me relationship advice and laugh at my toilet humor.

1) Fluency is insufficient; There are plenty of FMGs are are fluent and know fancy medical jargon with whom I could never have a deep conversation.

As an American applicant, I would say in response: Fluency is insufficient; there are plenty of AMGs who are fluent in English and know lots of poop jokes with whom I would not want to have a deep conversation.

I'm not sure how you can say that you could not have a deep conversation with people of different ethnicities/cultures. In my humble opinion, interacting with such people often yields the most profound insights. If you are unwilling to tolerate foreign accents or less-than-perfect English then you are not exactly a paragon of sociability either.

 

[Fencer]

When you are ready for fellowship, uberneurd, please let me know... your post shows character.

Today, I interviewed for neurology residency an amazing MS-IV from Texas. She has USMLE 99 (two digits), has done basic science, but did not pursue a PhD. She will get in at all of the programs that she applied. However, what was most striking was the quality of the physician I was interviewing. That is the purpose of interviews... to discern the people who I love to work with from those I can't wait to get paged away.