For people who went grad school because their GPA was too low for medical school

[):(]

I noticed a lot of people saying they went to graduate school to raise their GPA's so they could get into a medical school. My question is how did you get into graduate school when you couldn't get into medical school? The average entering GPA is 3.8 for admission at my science graduate school and the medical school average is 3.69. Am I missing something? Are there really low tier schools that average GPA's of less than 3.0 for graduate school? I don't mean this to be offensive or anything, I am honestly curious because I would like to get a masters before I head to medical school and my GPA is .4 below the graduate school average.

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[DCDAWG]

I noticed a lot of people saying they went to graduate school to raise their GPA's so they could get into a medical school. My question is how did you get into graduate school when you couldn't get into medical school? The average entering GPA is 3.8 for admission at my science graduate school and the medical school average is 3.69. Am I missing something? Are there really low tier schools that average GPA's of less than 3.0 for graduate school? I don't mean this to be offensive or anything, I am honestly curious because I would like to get a masters before I head to medical school and my GPA is .4 below the graduate school average.

Its not extremely hard to get into masters programs. Plus many people can do very well on the GRE, but not the MCAT. They are very different types of tests. I had a pretty low undergrad GPA, but got into a masters in microbiology at Georgetown (not SMP).
A high GRE may make up for a low GPA for some masters programs.
SMPs gear themselves to getting kids into med school, so they obviously are accepting kids with stats that didnt get them accepted to medical school.

 

[beary]

I think that grad students and med students are of approximately the caliber in an academic sense. But there are just many fewer students wanting to pursue a Ph.D. then there are wanting to pursue an M.D. There are definitely more MD spots than PhD spots each year, but it doesn't make up for the difference. The applicant/matriculant ratio in grad school is probably about 1:1, while in med school I think it is 3:1. Once you have gone through grad school and done graduate level work and significant research, your med school application would be more appealing.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I noticed a lot of people saying they went to graduate school to raise their GPA's so they could get into a medical school. My question is how did you get into graduate school when you couldn't get into medical school? The average entering GPA is 3.8 for admission at my science graduate school and the medical school average is 3.69. Am I missing something? Are there really low tier schools that average GPA's of less than 3.0 for graduate school? I don't mean this to be offensive or anything, I am honestly curious because I would like to get a masters before I head to medical school and my GPA is .4 below the graduate school average.

I'm assuming (based on your location) that you're at Univ. of Washington, which has a fairly selective approach to it's grad school. This is compared to say, Indiana State University where you can get into a graduate program just by virtue of possessing a pulse, respiration and can earn honors if you have any brain activity above the level of your pons. Trust me, if you have an even mediocre GPA you can get into grad school somewhere.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I got into a lot of top tier Public Health schools based on my essays, decent GPA and test scores. I think essays and personal charachter have a lot to do with Grad School admissions.

 

[SalseraDoctora]

I had a very high GRE score, and I am assuming that is what got me into my grad program. 🙂 (Because yes, my undergrad GPA was lousy.)

 

[relentless11]

I noticed a lot of people saying they went to graduate school to raise their GPA's so they could get into a medical school. My question is how did you get into graduate school when you couldn't get into medical school? The average entering GPA is 3.8 for admission at my science graduate school and the medical school average is 3.69. Am I missing something? Are there really low tier schools that average GPA's of less than 3.0 for graduate school? I don't mean this to be offensive or anything, I am honestly curious because I would like to get a masters before I head to medical school and my GPA is .4 below the graduate school average.

Over here in CA, all schools under the University of California requires students to have at least a 3.0 undergrad GPA. However I got in with a 2.65, and not having to take the GRE.

Reason being:

1) I did nearly 2 years worth of post-bacc and maintained a 3.4 GPA. Specifically did well in courses that are core requirements in the graduate program. I think they also noticed that my grade trends were all over the place. I'd get A's in really hard biomedical engineering classes, yet get a C in some random class like intro the weather..lol.

2) I had a professor willing to sponsor me.

3) I had 5 years of research, and 20+ publications at the time.

4) My MCAT score was a 36, so they waived my GRE requirement and used my MCAT score.

5) Don't know if this had anything to do with it, but reason for a low UG GPA was due to working full-time to support myself and family. I briefly mentioned it (in a positive way) in my personal statement, while my sponsoring professor also mentioned it in the LOR.

6) I think the biggest factor that got me in was the fact that the chair of the program was sympathetic to my cause, and thus wrote a compelling recommendation to graduate studies to let me in. Graduate studies is the one that makes the ultimate decision, so there was something that was written that got me in.

Of course I was admitted "on probation". They required that I maintain at least a 3.0 GPA for at least 1 quarter to get out of this probationary period. Well 1 year later, I have a cumulative GPA of 4.0, so their faith in me was not misplaced🙂. Well I don't know where my school ranks, but if i recall its at least a top 15 public school in the nation for whatever thats worth.

On a side note, I spoke with other programs, and they all said that they understand that some of us come in with low GPA's for various reasons, and their program chairs have always said that they've seen people who had totally crappy GPA's, yet do very well and become excellent researchers and professors. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, but I think some grad programs are willing to give you a chance if you look hard enough and make a good enough case regardless of the program's prestiege.

In retrospect, I've been VERY VERY lucky. I'm truly grateful for what I have right now, and that is one of the major driving forces that keeps me going. I of course enjoy my graduate program (very much), but at the same time I don't want to dissappoint these people who believed in me.

 

[MossPoh]

I'm assuming (based on your location) that you're at Univ. of Washington, which has a fairly selective approach to it's grad school. This is compared to say, Indiana State University where you can get into a graduate program just by virtue of possessing a pulse, respiration and can earn honors if you have any brain activity above the level of your pons. Trust me, if you have an even mediocre GPA you can get into grad school somewhere.

Heh. Good stuff because half my class went to ISU after high school. I'd pretty much agree with that....who wants to live in Terre Haute anyways...smells funny. One reason I didn't want Rose Hulman!

 

[):(]

Once again this site has proven its worth. Thank you for all your replies! Does TSU offer a neurobiology graduate program?

 

[luke77]

You also have to distinguish between post-bacc programs, MS, and PhD programs. Post-baccs are probably easiest to get into because they are accepting people who weren't accepted to med school, and MS programs are probably somewhat similar. I think that PhD programs are considerably more competitive. Actually, I'm considering applying to various PhD programs but I'm pretty nervous because at the top schools they accept something like 5% of applicants.

 

[relentless11]

You also have to distinguish between post-bacc programs, MS, and PhD programs. Post-baccs are probably easiest to get into because they are accepting people who weren't accepted to med school, and MS programs are probably somewhat similar. I think that PhD programs are considerably more competitive. Actually, I'm considering applying to various PhD programs but I'm pretty nervous because at the top schools they accept something like 5% of applicants.

Not quite. I would have never been admitted into our official post-bacc program. Even if I met their GPA requirement, they would have preferred someone with higher stats because those people would have a better chance at getting into med school, and thus improving the program's image. This is usually the case at more prestigious post-bacc programs. Other programs, such as Scripps and Mills College have relatively higher GPA requirements (~3.3) since they have linkage agreements. In terms of GPA, they may be harder than some masters programs out there. The other problem lies with programs that are designed to help disadvantaged students (like my school). Although I could claim disadvantaged status at my school, and after meeting the GPA requirement through my unofficial post-bacc program, I still would not have been admitted. Our director of admissions flat out said that my MCAT is TOO HIGH. Somewhat ironic, but I totally understand. This was one of hte driving factors that pushed me into grad school.

In regards to masters programs, I would also have to disagree...somewhat. Some programs actually prefer PhD's over masters students. Reason being, a masters student doesn't contribute as much to the school as a PhD student. Some masters students do their degree by exam, and thus may not do any research, while a student who does a masters by thesis will only contribute 2 years of limited research. Whereas a PhD student may contribute up to 5-6 years of research for the school.

Really, the competativeness for graduate programs depends on two things. 1) someone willing to sponsor you, and 2) research experience. Having a PI who is willing to support your education is key since this assures the school that you have someone mentoring you about your thesis project. While having research experience gives the school confidence that you have some clue about what you're doing. Ultimately these two things lead to you finishing your PhD thesis (or masters thesis) in a reasonable amount of time.

The only caveat is, if you enter a program that doesn't require a sponsoring professor at the beginning (e.g.: you find one after your first year). Then grades may play a larger role. Anyway, you can infer that the difficulty depends on the program, the school, and your stats. In retrospect, I could've easily gotten into a Cal State post-bacc program, but I chose to stay at my alma mater to pursue a PhD through our med school.

On a side note, wouldn't this be a better topic for the post-bacc or non-trad forums?

 

[Law2Doc]

You also have to distinguish between post-bacc programs, MS, and PhD programs.

Not sure if you are accurately using the term "postbac" (or at least not using it in a way that won't cause maximal confusion). If you are talking about a graduate program (as suggested by the title of this thread), you likely mean a SMP (special masters program). This differs from the more typical use of the term "postbac" which connotes formal or informal undergrad level programs (eg. Bryn Mawr, Goucher, Tufts and the like). As relentless suggested, formal postbacs and some SMP programs "cherry pick" those applicants who they will most easilly be able to place into med schools, so they tend not to be the easiest to get into. Others, as well as informal (do it yourself) undergrad postbacs tend to be open enrollment.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Heh. Good stuff because half my class went to ISU after high school. I'd pretty much agree with that....who wants to live in Terre Haute anyways...smells funny. One reason I didn't want Rose Hulman!

Only on days with a breeze from the southwest.

Yeah, I can't wait to get out of here. Is it a bad sign for my hometown when you're looking forward to moving to Saginaw Michigan- which isn't the greatest place to live or attend school- just because it is not Terre Haute?

 

[db1]

I noticed a lot of people saying they went to graduate school to raise their GPA's so they could get into a medical school.

Graduate school grades do not affect your undergraduate GPA. I am not sure about the SMP programs that are geared toward getting you into med school, but for a normal MS or PhD program, your graduate school GPA is calculated seperately from your undergrad GPA on AMCAS.

Don't get a Ph.D. to help get you into med school, trust me, I did and it didn't help nearly as much as you would think. I had a Ph.D. from a top 10 med school, decent grad GPA (under grad GPA 3.2), good publications, clinical experience, and a 31 MCAT and didn't get accepted. I retook the MCAT, got a 36, and got into a few schools, but didn't get interviews at top teir schools. Undergrad GPA was mentioned at my interviews because they don't really give a lot of weight to grad gpa's. Actually on AMCAS my grad GPA was close to a 3.0 because after the first year when classes were finished the only grade I had was a pass/fail grade for my research project. A pass is calculated as a B by AMCAS. I don't know if the people reviewing my app looked at just the didactic grads and realized I had a much higher GPA for my classwork or not, I doubt it.

I want to stay in academic medicine, so getting a Ph.D. was the right choice, but I would have done it differently if I could do it again. I would have done a year or two of postbacc (undergrad) work or a specialized postbacc program. You can get research experience, even a Ph.D., during med school or residency at some programs.

 

[nubbey24]

Graduate school grades do not affect your undergraduate GPA. I am not sure about the SMP programs that are geared toward getting you into med school, but for a normal MS or PhD program, your graduate school GPA is calculated seperately from your undergrad GPA on AMCAS.

Don't get a Ph.D. to help get you into med school, trust me, I did and it didn't help nearly as much as you would think. I had a Ph.D. from a top 10 med school, decent grad GPA (under grad GPA 3.2), good publications, clinical experience, and a 31 MCAT and didn't get accepted. I retook the MCAT, got a 36, and got into a few schools, but didn't get interviews at top teir schools. Undergrad GPA was mentioned at my interviews because they don't really give a lot of weight to grad gpa's. Actually on AMCAS my grad GPA was close to a 3.0 because after the first year when classes were finished the only grade I had was a pass/fail grade for my research project. A pass is calculated as a B by AMCAS. I don't know if the people reviewing my app looked at just the didactic grads and realized I had a much higher GPA for my classwork or not, I doubt it.

I want to stay in academic medicine, so getting a Ph.D. was the right choice, but I would have done it differently if I could do it again. I would have done a year or two of postbacc (undergrad) work or a specialized postbacc program. You can get research experience, even a Ph.D., during med school or residency at some programs.

Are you sure that they count passes in grad school as B's? I have not heard that. That is not very fair, as much of my grad school education has been research based and so has not bases for grade besides the fact that i am have been productive or not. Please let me know. This just seems weird.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Other programs, such as Scripps and Mills College have relatively higher GPA requirements (~3.3) since they have linkage agreements.

What other programs have such agreements?

 

[Noeljan]

passes are NOT counted as B's. They are like neutral grades. Also, no offense but a 3.0 in grad school would look on the low side (not saying anything about you bc if you only took one class, but in general).

 

[relentless11]

Graduate school grades do not affect your undergraduate GPA. I am not sure about the SMP programs that are geared toward getting you into med school, but for a normal MS or PhD program, your graduate school GPA is calculated seperately from your undergrad GPA on AMCAS.

All graduate, and professional courses DO NOT effect undergrad GPA. I think there is a caveat if you take a grad level course that is required for an undergrad degree.

Don't get a Ph.D. to help get you into med school, trust me, I did and it didn't help nearly as much as you would think. I had a Ph.D. from a top 10 med school, decent grad GPA (under grad GPA 3.2), good publications, clinical experience, and a 31 MCAT and didn't get accepted. I retook the MCAT, got a 36, and got into a few schools, but didn't get interviews at top teir schools. Undergrad GPA was mentioned at my interviews because they don't really give a lot of weight to grad gpa's. Actually on AMCAS my grad GPA was close to a 3.0 because after the first year when classes were finished the only grade I had was a pass/fail grade for my research project. A pass is calculated as a B by AMCAS. I don't know if the people reviewing my app looked at just the didactic grads and realized I had a much higher GPA for my classwork or not, I doubt it.

No offense, but I think your experience with a PhD program may be a bit skewed. As Noeljan pointed out, both your undergrad and grad GPA were on the low side. In fact your grad GPA is quite close to failing. At most programs, a 2.7 GPA (B- average) is considered failing. Most of the time, grad students are around the 3.5-3.8. Additionally, most schools require a GPA of 3.5 for some kind of additional monetary aid. You will find various posts in the non-trad forums where graduate GPA may offset undergrad GPA, but this is a case-by-case basis. Since you actually had a lower GPA in a graduate program, the top tier schools were most likely concerned about your academic performance despite your high MCAT score.

One of the best examples of how graduate school helps can be seen by one of our mods, QofQuimica. Went to an undergrad school that did not have letter grades, but had a very high GPA as a PhD student, and a very high MCAT score. So it does work, but I will let Q put in more details.

Lastly, Pass/No Pass classes ARE NOT counted as a B by AMCAS. In fact on page 12 of the AMCAS instruction booklet it clearly states:

"Courses with the AMCAS grades listed below are not included in the GPA calculations. Instead, the total hours for each of these categories are reported to the schools under the heading "Supplementary Hours."
• Pass/Fail - Pass
• Pass/Fail - Fail
• AP Credit"

I also confirmed this with our school of medicine, before starting my graduate program. Besides, a "pass" is usually a C or more, so would be odd to issue a B, for someone who could've gotten a C. Not sure where ou got that info.

What other programs have such agreements?

Look on AAMC. I there is a link in the post-bacc forums too.

 

[nubbey24]

Thanks for clarifying Relentless

 

[karirunner]

You can get into grad school with a >3.2GPA, a year or two of UG research, a strong recommendation from your UG research advisor, and a 1300-1400 on your GRE. The GRE is cake compared to the MCAT (math that covers algebra and trig, an essay, and a Verbal section that covers grammar, comprehension, and analogies.) Warning: grad school can be just as hard as med school; at my husband's grad school, a C means you are failing and instructors tend to award a set percentage of C's. Plus, in a research program, look forward to at minimum 40-60hrs a week in lab.

 

[beponychick]

I am finishing up my masters right now at CUNY-Hunter College. There was really not much to the admissions process. You can get into their masters program with 500 or so on each section of the GRE (considered very low) and a 3.3 GPA (probably even lower). I am sure a lot more programs are competitive. I initially was taking courses as a non-matric, got As in them, and applied formally to the program (another thing you may want to do if your grades are not as great to get in from the beginning). Oh and I believe having good grades in the masters really helped me get accepted to med school.

Good luck.

 

[Noeljan]

good job bepony🙂
and exactly my point, obtaining a graduate degree and doing stellar in one are two different stories. I don't know how one would do a grad program to help out lower UG gpa, and not try to rock it totally!! You cannot get a 3.0 in grad school or even lower and say, my gosh see grad school didn't help me at all make up for a low GPA. Now, if you had said you got a 4.0 in grad school, etc and really made a substantial effort/jump then it would be more questionable. I am sure grad school and post bac help, but only if you do really well in them. That's the point.

 

[NonTradMed]

I think it depends on what type of grad school program you want to attend. Not all grad schools require a 3.8 GPA to enter. Some grad schools are not as selective for their masters program as long as you are paying, while others are very selective. From what my friends tell me, the key to a PhD program is getting a professor to sponsor you. I had a friend who had mediocre grades but steller GRE scores (almost perfect), and she barely studied for the exam. She told me that the GRE is infinitely easier than the MCAT. My friend was originally premed but quit because of poor grades (i.e grades that would not get her into med school) to pursue grad school.

It's not hard, academically, to get into grad school if you are talking about masters program, or certain PhD programs. Med schools, due to the high number of applicants, can be far more selective. I can't imagine the average grad school GPA is 3.8. Most of my premed friends who don't get into med schools typically find their way into other masters/graduate program with the same grades.

 

[relentless11]

I think it depends on what type of grad school program you want to attend. Not all grad schools require a 3.8 GPA to enter. Some grad schools are not as selective for their masters program as long as you are paying, while others are very selective. From what my friends tell me, the key to a PhD program is getting a professor to sponsor you. I had a friend who had mediocre grades but steller GRE scores (almost perfect), and she barely studied for the exam. She told me that the GRE is infinitely easier than the MCAT. My friend was originally premed but quit because of poor grades (i.e grades that would not get her into med school) to pursue grad school.

It's not hard, academically, to get into grad school if you are talking about masters program, or certain PhD programs. Med schools, due to the high number of applicants, can be far more selective. I can't imagine the average grad school GPA is 3.8. Most of my premed friends who don't get into med schools typically find their way into other masters/graduate program with the same grades.

I agree. However I to add that I found the GRE to be tedious. I took a a practice GRE before realizing that my MCAT scores could be used for the GRE requirement. It really depends on the person I guess, I just found the test to be pointless, at least the MCAT was more science oriented. However I heard that the subject GRE was pretty hard. My friend got destroyed on the bio subject test. She had to remember various types of animals and stuff that we learned during general bio...ages ago!

Getting into grad school is probably easier than med school yes, but I'm starting to feel that getting out of a PhD program is a lot harder. I don't think many med students would be happy to take a qualifying exam😉. I think its an interesting challenge, but given a choice, I would do something else😉. Its all in good fun i guess🙂.