For The People Going Into Medicine for the Money.

[Detective SnowBucket]

I read so many places on SDN that medicine is not the way to go if you're just out to make money but I know so many people who want to go into it for just that (not that I have any confidence any of them will make it but)

So, for those of you who can look back on a career, what would you tell those people they should go into instead? What are these "so many other careers with much better financial outlook" ? I've googled into finance jobs and very few get above a FM salary so, what is it then?

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[bluepeony]

I read so many places on SDN that medicine is not the way to go if you're just out to make money but I know so many people who want to go into it for just that (not that I have any confidence any of them will make it but)

So, for those of you who can look back on a career, what would you tell those people they should go into instead? What are these "so many other careers with much better financial outlook" ? I've googled into finance jobs and very few get above a FM salary so, what is it then?

You have to factor in the opportunity cost and debt. For example, PA, NP may make less. However,their length of training is shorter and the debt is a lot less.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You also gotta factor in the time commitment (often affecting time to have a decent personal life) plus the mental and physical stress load associated with medical tranning.

 

[penpenclown]

My uncle went into medicine for the money and he 100% regrets it. He always tells me and my cousin to go PA if we want to work in healthcare.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

My engineering classmates are starting out with 100K+ right out of undergrad so assuming med school + residency + fellowship is ~10 years that’s the time they can be making a million bucks with no debt or stressful schooling.

 

[Aloe paleo]

interesting thread.... gonna try and follow it

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

My uncle went into medicine for the money and he 100% regrets it. He always tells me and my cousin to go PA if we want to work in healthcare.

What does he say to go into for the money outside of healthcare

 

[Aloe paleo]

i also know someone who went into it for the money...but he still loves his job....i think he learned to love it and he's really good at what he does

 

[penpenclown]

What does he say to go into for the money outside of healthcare

I dunno I don't have any interest in working outside of health care so it's never come up.

 

[Aloe paleo]

My uncle went into medicine for the money and he 100% regrets it. He always tells me and my cousin to go PA if we want to work in healthcare.

Isn't it super hard to get into PA school too? Is it as competitive as med school admissions?

 

[beattheprocess]

What are these "so many other careers with much better financial outlook" ? I've googled into finance jobs and very few get above a FM salary so, what is it then?

There aren’t really any. Business and finance is largely luck and networking. Law’s job market isn’t looking too good. Engineering perhaps, but the average engineer makes half the average internal med doctor. Entrepreneurship? I’ll be impressed if you managed to not go bankrupt in a year, let alone make bank. Medicine is a really rare exception where your hard work (and some networking) will literally pay off.

 

[Tenk]

Money was definitely a reason for me but it wasn’t the only reason. I think medicine is really interesting and I enjoy the fact that as an ED physician I know what to do in almost any emergency. If I didn’t find my job interesting though it would be probably horrific and not worth it.

 

[Means]

Isn't it super hard to get into PA school too? Is it as competitive as med school admissions?

not as competitive as MD admissions, but it has become quite competitive. It also tends to be a slightly different applicant pool since the average matriculant at most schools has an average of 4000+ hours of prior healthcare employment.

 

[calipremed5768]

It’s still the only career path in America where you can almost guarantee a top percentile income. Most doctors that complain about money probably play golf with bankers that pull in 3mil a year. But almost nobody who goes into banking gets to that level

 

[calipremed5768]

People who tell you “don’t go into medicine because business is where the money is at” might as well say “don’t go into medicine because NFL players make bank. Concentrate on football.”

 

[jurassicpark]

With the exception of maybe a few fields, after successfully completing a Residency program you are almost guaranteed a very good paying job, a certain level of respectability and a newfound sex-appeal. The average hospitalist these days are pulling in what, 240k a year for a roughly 7 on and 7 off schedule?

Of course, you have to factor in :
- Debt to become a doctor. If you got to a private school, the tuition rates are massive these days. Easily looking at close to $300k coming out of medical school. Not even factoring in interest you'll be incurring at usually a high percentage.
- Delayed income. While the starting salary is high, remember you'll be earning less than nothing for at least 11+ years. Even though you earn a pittance as a Resident, the amount of debt and interest is going to keep building. The amount you get as a Resident is just enough to keep you from starving, that and raiding the hospital cafeteria.
- Delayed gratification. You've spent the last decade plus at or below poverty level working and studying absolutely insane hours while your friends are at the bar or on vacation.
- To get that salary after residency is still very hard work for most. You see X amount of patients, often times taking work home with you. Hours always start earlier and end later.

Earning extra money will then depend on your willing to work extra shifts, hours, see that extra few patients. Invest, market, etc. But you're already at least a decade behind saving for retirement as well. Most of us had no home, no vehicle, etc.

On top of that, the public still thinks you earn too much and are responsible for the jacked up prices of medicine.

 

[meepdog]

With the exception of maybe a few fields, after successfully completing a Residency program you are almost guaranteed a very good paying job, a certain level of respectability and a newfound sex-appeal. The average hospitalist these days are pulling in what, 240k a year for a roughly 7 on and 7 off schedule?

Of course, you have to factor in :
- Debt to become a doctor. If you got to a private school, the tuition rates are massive these days. Easily looking at close to $300k coming out of medical school. Not even factoring in interest you'll be incurring at usually a high percentage.
- Delayed income. While the starting salary is high, remember you'll be earning less than nothing for at least 11+ years. Even though you earn a pittance as a Resident, the amount of debt and interest is going to keep building. The amount you get as a Resident is just enough to keep you from starving, that and raiding the hospital cafeteria.
- Delayed gratification. You've spent the last decade plus at or below poverty level working and studying absolutely insane hours while your friends are at the bar or on vacation.
- To get that salary after residency is still very hard work for most. You see X amount of patients, often times taking work home with you. Hours always start earlier and end later.

Earning extra money will then depend on your willing to work extra shifts, hours, see that extra few patients. Invest, market, etc. But you're already at least a decade behind saving for retirement as well. Most of us had no home, no vehicle, etc.

On top of that, the public still thinks you earn too much and are responsible for the jacked up prices of medicine.

Don't residents usually get around 40k a year though? I always hear the "starving resident" trope but honestly I know a lot of people in the working world who are happy to get 40k a year. I know it isn't proportional to debt, and the hours are insane, but in terms of living standards based on money I don't really get how it's that bad. Especially because you know your income will go up so the burden of debt is hopefully temporary.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Computer science graduates from top schools are getting 150-200K with sign up bonuses and with stock options some are making more. Top hedge funds and private equity funds pays 200-300K (plus bonuses) for their top candidates. However those jobs you have to work more than 40 hrs/week and continuously improve yourself and also salaries and bonuses depends on stock market performance.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Don't residents usually get around 40k a year though? I always hear the "starving resident" trope but honestly I know a lot of people in the working world who are happy to get 40k a year. I know it isn't proportional to debt, and the hours are insane, but in terms of living standards based on money I don't really get how it's that bad. Especially because you know your income will go up so the burden of debt is hopefully temporary.

40-50k in cities like NYC and SF may not cover rent and food if you have family

 

[meepdog]

40-50k in cities like NYC and SF may not cover rent and food if you have family

Google says residents in NYC get over 60k. Which I'm not claiming will let you shop at Whole Foods every day but still doesn't seem like the end of the world. And most places are not as expensive, in which case you should still be able to live reasonably well. IDK I guess I'm just comparing it to all the incomes I've had before which were significantly lower than even 40k

 

[calipremed5768]

Most tech people won’t cross 200k either

 

[907914]

You've spent the last decade plus at or below poverty

I wanna throw this in here - as an active recipient of food stamps and state Medicaid in a family of three living on <$24,000 a year...A residency salary of $40-60K for a single adult is not “at or below the poverty line.” I am not complaining about my current financial status or undermining your individual financial struggles during residency. Nor am I justifying the low pay-per-hour and effort during residency. I just felt your statement devalues what it truly means to live ‘at or below the poverty line.’

 

[jurassicpark]

I wanna throw this in here - as an active recipient of food stamps and state Medicaid in a family of three living on <$24,000 a year...A residency salary of $40-60K for a single adult is not “at or below the poverty line.” I am not complaining about my current financial status or undermining your individual financial struggles during residency. Nor am I justifying the low pay-per-hour and effort during residency. I just felt your statement devalues what it truly means to live ‘at or below the poverty line.’

You're right. Didn't mean to devalue the real poverty line. I had meant to mean the amount of money you're pulling in with the debt burden you're carrying.

 

[calipremed5768]

I really don’t understand the attitude about money and medicine. Especially when it comes to material things. Some people on this forum expect you to keep driving a 2002 car and living in a beat up apartment when you become a doctor. Imo if you want to reward yourself for your hard work, struggle, and sacrifice by leasing a g-wagon and buying a nice house then you should

 

[electropartyogram]

Sure there might be other careers that make more for "top-earners", but I doubt any other field will match the consistency, resilience, and longevity as a career in medicine as a physician. 200-300K starting out for family practice? High-hour working orthopods, neuro-, and vascular surgeons climbing over 600K? Also, let us not forget this field is incredibly resistant to recessions whereas banks and techs were laying off people left and right.

Sure, residency sucks and the loans are large but if people are smart with their money and can crawl through living in a low COL for a few years after residency then the debt becomes less of a problem. Plus, the career, in my opinion, is at the pinnacle of fulfillment.

 

[Wolvvs]

I wanna throw this in here - as an active recipient of food stamps and state Medicaid in a family of three living on <$24,000 a year...A residency salary of $40-60K for a single adult is not “at or below the poverty line.” I am not complaining about my current financial status or undermining your individual financial struggles during residency. Nor am I justifying the low pay-per-hour and effort during residency. I just felt your statement devalues what it truly means to live ‘at or below the poverty line.’

Strongly agree. To someone coming from a poorer background, high stable income is an excellent reason to go into medicine. It takes a ton of work and the hurdles are relatively higher but there's no other option that provides the stability and high income of an MD.

 

[Lucca]

Your earning potential outside of the professions (Medicine and Law) is almost entirely set by the school you went to and not necessarily the discipline. STEM will be slightly more employable on average in particular the TE part of that, but where you go to school is the most important thing. Not saying you have to go to HYPSM...a Georgia Tech engineer is going to be highly desirable. All of my CS friends from my state schools well ranked CS dept (not some, not the smartest, not the most well connected but all of them) are very well employed. A lot of the state flagship schools have powerful networks and strong recruiting pipelines.

There’s definitely easier ways to make money, you just have to get lucky earlier in life. I’m just starting but I’m already pretty confident doing it (just) for the money would be a pretty terrible idea.

There have been a few SDNers over the years who posted all over the site about only doing medicine for the money (part time, rural FM, so much free time! All the money! Etc) and just about all of them either dropped out of med school after 1-2 years, were never able to get in, or quit premed as soon as they came to their senses

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Most tech people won’t cross 200k either

True, but smart ones like premeds such as you are making over 200K easily.

 

[getdown]

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Everyone goes into medicine with money as a factor. It may not - and DEFINITELY SHOULD NOT - be the only factor but to assume otherwise is naive. Your life will be miserable if money is the only motivator. It's definitely a nice perk though.

 

[calipremed5768]

Yes true but even if I won the 100 million powerball I’d still go to med school. It would be extremely boring to just sit around and spend money

 

[ChemEMeddie]

Not to beat a dead horse here, as many have expressed similar sentiments. You would need to strike it incredibly lucky to pass 200k as an engineer, of any kind. If you want to pass 200k, you need to put in 60 hour work weeks busting your hump trying to work your way up the management ladder and then at that point you need to keep performing at that level or else you're going to be replaced by the guy coming up right behind you doing the same thing you were doing and then you need to start all over again at a different company. Tech/Engineering are not these easy come, will never go careers. You need to work very hard through undergrad and then start out as an average engineer/tech employee making ~70kish and only then can you begin the climb. It could very well take you just as long as med school (7 years, which is the low end of what is considered a Senior Engineer/Tech employee) or longer to reach even comparable compensation as FM. Even 90 percentile ChemEs, for example, only make 170k, which is still less than any MD would. All with the expectation that you need to put in the 50-60 hour work weeks and that you're replaceable as there are always new grads gunning for your spot. It's doable, but most won't, even if they were premeds, because there just aren't the job opportunities in engineering/tech that there were even 7 years ago. There are twice as many engineering graduates as there are jobs sadly.

TL;DR
Yes, immediate gratification of these careers can be attractive, but you won't ever come close to the level of income and job security as an MD because everyone who has been in college the last 5-8 years has seen these industries blow up in salary and have subsequently studied these fields and are now facing significant competition and job market saturation that is only going to get worse.

 

[calipremed5768]

Yup..10 years of uninterrupted economic growth leads to naivety and delusions of grandeur. If you think being a resident is stressful, just look at a banker/trader during a recession.

 

[electropartyogram]

Yup..10 years of uninterrupted economic growth leads to naivety and delusions of grandeur. If you think being a resident is stressful, just look at a banker/trader during a recession.

Being an employed stressed resident is better than being an unemployed/laid off stressed banker/trader.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Not to beat a dead horse here, as many have expressed similar sentiments. You would need to strike it incredibly lucky to pass 200k as an engineer, of any kind. If you want to pass 200k, you need to put in 60 hour work weeks busting your hump trying to work your way up the management ladder and then at that point you need to keep performing at that level or else you're going to be replaced by the guy coming up right behind you doing the same thing you were doing and then you need to start all over again at a different company. Tech/Engineering are not these easy come, will never go careers. You need to work very hard through undergrad and then start out as an average engineer/tech employee making ~70kish and only then can you begin the climb. It could very well take you just as long as med school (7 years, which is the low end of what is considered a Senior Engineer/Tech employee) or longer to reach even comparable compensation as FM. Even 90 percentile ChemEs, for example, only make 170k, which is still less than any MD would. All with the expectation that you need to put in the 50-60 hour work weeks and that you're replaceable as there are always new grads gunning for your spot. It's doable, but most won't, even if they were premeds, because there just aren't the job opportunities in engineering/tech that there were even 7 years ago. There are twice as many engineering graduates as there are jobs sadly.

TL;DR
Yes, immediate gratification of these careers can be attractive, but you won't ever come close to the level of income and job security as an MD because everyone who has been in college the last 5-8 years has seen these industries blow up in salary and have subsequently studied these fields and are now facing significant competition and job market saturation that is only going to get worse.

Well said, those are the facts I tell kids who are saying easy to make money as a software engineer vs being a doctor. Easy to dream to be next Gates or Musk or Zuckerberg. However do what you like and money will follow. some medical students I know are looking at dual careers like become a part time doctor and involve in tech industry,

 

[ChemEMeddie]

Well said, those are the facts I tell kids who are saying easy to make money as a software engineer vs being a doctor. Easy to dream to be next Gates or Musk or Zuckerberg. However do what you like and money will follow. some medical students I know are looking at dual careers like become a part time doctor and involve in tech industry,

Absolutely! For example, I'm very much interested in pursuing a similar path if that opportunity happens to arise for me, as I am very much a people person and love the chemistry and physics that are involved with being a physician, certain specialties more than others, and would love to apply my skills towards helping people get better and applying my science knowledge in that way and I would love to be able to have a hand in the design and creation of new equipment and such having had the ability to see both sides of the industry/coin.

 

[Cornfed101]

I wanna throw this in here - as an active recipient of food stamps and state Medicaid in a family of three living on <$24,000 a year...A residency salary of $40-60K for a single adult is not “at or below the poverty line.” I am not complaining about my current financial status or undermining your individual financial struggles during residency. Nor am I justifying the low pay-per-hour and effort during residency. I just felt your statement devalues what it truly means to live ‘at or below the poverty line.’

As someone who has danced around the poverty line with a family of 4, the system in this country sucks worse for people in the $30k-40k range than those in the $20k-30k range. I am making just over $30k and I lost Medicaid for myself so I have to pay $200 a month for my work insurance (which isn't too bad), but it's an HSA plan with a $4000 deductible. I can't freaking afford that. We also lost $400 a month in food stamps. It's not fun.

On the subject of resident pay, I think one of the things that is really killer is you have your $250k+ in student loans that now has to be repaid (even if it is graduated repayment). You should expect a few thousand per year from this. You do make decent money, but most people making $50k-60k have a life and are not working 80 hours a week for that income.

After saying all of this... I still want to go into medicine. Just some thoughts...

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Tech was obviously the superior choice over the last decade. If you were as good at programming as your at medicine, you'd have made $500k+ in stock bonuses in your 20s. This can be invested and will result in millions more dollars over your life. Anyone who disputes this is probably bitter.

Here are top tech salaries: Levels.fyi - Compare career levels across companies

 

[CoitusInterruptus]

I read so many places on SDN that medicine is not the way to go if you're just out to make money but I know so many people who want to go into it for just that (not that I have any confidence any of them will make it but)

So, for those of you who can look back on a career, what would you tell those people they should go into instead? What are these "so many other careers with much better financial outlook" ? I've googled into finance jobs and very few get above a FM salary so, what is it then?

Can I just say the doctors who make the big bucks were destined for big bucks no matter what occupational path they committed to. But you can’t get much more bang for your prestige buck than medicine. Being a medical entrepreneur is like being a demigod on this planet. The most profitable partners in the venture capital Mecca of sand hill road in Silicon Valley are all sleeping ok mattresses full of money because healthcare and technology intersect on Big Bucks Avenue

 

[PodPeople]

Software engineering, depending on where you live and how good you are. In some places, you don't even have to be that good. I live in a very high cost of living area, and have lots of friends in medicine and in software. We talk money pretty openly, and unless the physicians went to med school for very cheap, they're unlikely to catch up with the engineers. It can vary wildly by company size, and this is of course anecdotal... but n = 30 or so

 

[proudofmykids]

Isn't it super hard to get into PA school too? Is it as competitive as med school admissions?

Not even close.

 

[mwsapphire]

i also know someone who went into it for the money...but he still loves his job....i think he learned to love it and he's really good at what he does

I love your sig. I also feel like my cycle is in God' hands.

 

[Aloe paleo]

I love your sig. I also feel like my cycle is in God' hands.

God has a plan for you!

 

[DNAJB6]

Your earning potential outside of the professions (Medicine and Law) is almost entirely set by the school you went to and not necessarily the discipline.

I'm going to disagree with you regarding lawyers. If you don't go to a top 5 or top 10 law school, entire career options/doors close.

 

[Jappa]

Since we're on the topic of doctors making a lot of money, is anybody worried about the possible cut in physician salary if we were to shift to Medicare for All or something along those lines?

 

[proudofmykids]

FWIW advice - For those concerned about their future income in medicine, the single best thing you can do is stay educated about the business of medicine. You will face continued pressures to lower the cost of medicine and will have to navigate your way around those pressure points as you stay ahead and innovate in your business and not just medical approaches and decisions.

 

[907914]

Since we're on the topic of doctors making a lot of money, is anybody worried about the possible cut in physician salary if we were to shift to Medicare for All or something along those lines?

Not at all worried. If physician salaries are cut at the at the expense of bringing healthcare access to tens of millions who don’t have it, then that is a fine trade to me.

*caveat* It would have to be legit “everyone is covered” as well as making MED schools tuition free

 

[Jappa]

Not at all worried. If physician salaries are cut at the at the expense of bringing healthcare access to tens of millions who don’t have it, then that is a fine trade to me.

*caveat* It would have to be legit “everyone is covered” as well as making MED schools tuition free

But what if they make med school tuition free for those that are just starting medical school? Leaving you to pay all your loans with half of your original salary, would you still be alright with that?

 

[beattheprocess]

Not at all worried. If physician salaries are cut at the at the expense of bringing healthcare access to tens of millions who don’t have it, then that is a fine trade to me.

Bro didn’t you just post about being on food stamps? Of course it would be. You’re not making a sacrifice you’re benefiting from it (at least for now).

 

[907914]

Bro didn’t you just post about being on food stamps? Of course it would be. You’re not making a sacrifice you’re benefiting from it (at least for now).

My personal financial situation doesn’t matter. Just addressing the point that “rich people being a little less rich” yields a result of “poor people not having to choose between having a roof or their health” which, to me, is an obvious no brained trade. I am actively choosing to be in a position of low income now (quit a very well paying job to return to school) for this reason. Going in to medicine not for the money, but to treat patients. A physician salary cut would almost certainly not affect their quality of life, but it would by far increase that of those who benefit from universal coverage.

 

[Cornfed101]

But what if they make med school tuition free for those that are just starting medical school? Leaving you to pay all your loans with half of your original salary, would you still be alright with that?

Although the media portrays it as solely a physician salary issue, the cost of healthcare is mainly focused in administrative costs. If physician reimbursement is cut and nothing is done to minimize administration then we won’t accomplish anything