For those of you who got in with a low GPA, how are you doing now?

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3.4 - flew through medical school without much difficulty. The system is designed for students to pass. MS1/2 are similar to many/most pre-med classes. The pacing is faster and thus demand organization and focus. But, the reality is that often the biggest roadblock for for students are their study habits, not the material. The ability to not fixate and burn out is just as valuable as being able to buckle down and focus. MS3/4 has next to nothing to do with one's ability to do well in pre-med classes. In general, the people that I saw struggling were those that had harder times communicating and figuring out how to be effective when the task at hand wasn't linear.
 
mimelim said:
MS3/4 has next to nothing to do with one's ability to do well in pre-med classes. In general, the people that I saw struggling were those that had harder times communicating and figuring out how to be effective when the task at hand wasn't linear.
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This sounds like a big chaos.
 
Haha @mimelim, it might be worth noting that your GPA was as a physics major at WashU and you had an MCAT in the 40s...you may not have had the most representative of experiences for low GPA MD admits

mimelim said:
MS3/4 has next to nothing to do with one's ability to do well in pre-med classes. In general, the people that I saw struggling were those that had harder times communicating and figuring out how to be effective when the task at hand wasn't linear.
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When I hear people complaining about the grading in M3/M4 as subjective or random, do you agree? Or is it just assessing new skills that a lot of people lack?
 
Geo16 said:
This sounds like a big chaos.
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It isn't. It is the real world. Tasks are not given to you with step by step directions. The people who do well are the ones that can extrapolate from a core education and their experiences to solve problems that they weren't given a cook book recipe for. The ones that have people skills, can anticipate the needs of others (patients, nursing staff, junior residents, senior residents, staff physicians etc.) and address them before it is strictly necessary are the ones that excel. We don't really select for that very well in medical school admissions and yet that is such a huge part of the actual job of practicing medicine. Some people call it common sense, but I think that that dumbs it down a bit too much, because a lot of this stuff is learned, just simply not emphasized in your typical HS-->undergrad-->medical school model.

efle said:
Haha @mimelim, it might be worth noting that your GPA was as a physics major at WashU and you had an MCAT in the 40s...you may not have had the most representative of experiences for low GPA MD admits


When I hear people complaining about the grading in M3/M4 as subjective or random, do you agree? Or is it just assessing new skills that a lot of people lack?
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I disagree with your first point. Most of what I said was based less on my own experience and more on watching hundreds of medical students as a resident. The people that struggle academically in medical school are not stupid. They don't lack the intellect to succeed. There are some that lack the discipline, organization and study habits to keep up. But, the vast majority that don't do well don't do well because of uncontrollable outside factors. Some medical, some social, some simply bad luck. It is incredibly rare for someone to show up in medical school and simply be unable to get through it. It is a system designed to help you succeed. It is an easy argument to say, "passing isn't succeeding for me". The dirty secret of course is that passing your pre-clinicals is more than enough to go into most things. Despite what some posters claim on here, your pre-clinical grades mean very little to the vast majority of people out there. Same with AOA (ie a second metric that provides nothing else to an application that your grades already did). Certainly, getting into an extremely competitive IM program or Derm will be significantly harder with lower pre-clinical grades, for the vast majority (ie 95%+ of applicants) your pre-clinical grades will mean nothing. This is why pass/fail pre-clinical curriculum changes little, because the vast majority of practicing physicians could not care less about how you did in your pre-clinical curriculum.

Regarding MS3/4 grading...

Subjectivity: It is absolutely subjective. But, that doesn't make it bad or wrong. In the real world, you don't get grades. You get people's opinions of you. What other people think of you matters. Whether it is your chairman, your co-workers, the nurses, people who consult you, people who you consult, or most importantly the patients, opinions matter, a lot and a hell of a lot more than any grade that a society, school or other body gives you. This is not about kissing people's asses. This is about learning to function outside of the classroom in a work environment. Many students (in my experience, the ones that excelled as students in MS1/2) make this mistake and fall into the trap. It is far from a perfect system. Schools are littered with ****ty faculty and rotations. It can be frustrating. But, at the end of the day, the skills you learn on the wards are just as important as book knowledge and you need feedback on how to improve. Good feedback doesn't come at the end of a rotation in a paragraph. It comes at you constantly and constructively throughout the rotation. I have also found that students that don't understand this are the ones that have the hardest time adjusting to residency. They are the ones constantly bickering with nursing. They are the ones pissing off consultants. They are the ones that double my workload as a senior because not only do I have to do their work for them, I have to clean up their messes. My job as a physician is to take care of patients. Doing that is complicated. It requires the cooperation of many people from other physicians to allied healthcare providers to the patients themselves. Many pre-meds/medical students/physicians don't like to hear it, because in their heads, "I studied longer than everyone else, therefore everyone else should respect me and do what I say." You can't gain that cooperation with that attitude. You gain it by learning to play nicely in the sandbox, picking your battles, working your butt off and providing excellent care. It isn't spelled out, but MS3/4 is where that all starts.

Randomness: People who think that a system is random don't understand the system. Certainly there are exceptions, but after a while you've heard it all. I've heard it from the MCAT to admissions to grades, to poker, to hearthstone and everything in between, yet somehow the cream always seems to rise to the top. Again, while there are terrible rotation sites at many schools, most complaints about 'randomness' stem from people not understanding why they under performed. That is partially the school/rotations fault for not spelling out expectations or mentoring students as well as they could. But, at some point that responsibility shifts to the individual to figure it out themselves.
 
3.45 GPA, 29 MCAT

Not too much difficulty passing my M1/M2 classes, 3rd quartile of class. Step 1 was below average, which is to be expected with a lower than average MCAT score.

1st or 2nd quartile as an M3, scored ever so slightly above average on Step 2 CK (significant improvement on Step 1).

Going into Emergency Medicine and received enough interviews this cycle that I'm confident I'll match.
 
CliveStaples said:
3.45 GPA, 29 MCAT

Not too much difficulty passing my M1/M2 classes, 3rd quartile of class. Step 1 was below average, which is to be expected with a lower than average MCAT score.

1st or 2nd quartile as an M3, scored ever so slightly above average on Step 2 CK (significant improvement on Step 1).

Going into Emergency Medicine and received enough interviews this cycle that I'm confident I'll match.
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I have a lower Mcat than that and I'm worried a bit about Step 1
 
mitrieD said:
I have a lower Mcat than that and I'm worried a bit about Step 1
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Real talk - you have an uphill battle and that test is a bit of a beast. That said, it's well within your abilities to score well enough to not preclude you from 90% of specialties.

Plenty of my classmates fat exceeded their MCAT performance on Step 1, so don't let it define your expectations. Just be realistic once you start doing full length practice exams.
 
3.31 uGPA, 2.99 sGPA, MCAT 34. I was non-trad so those grades were pretty old when I applied, but I didn't do any grade repair (hadn't discovered SDN yet). I applied as a veteran too so I had that boost. I'm in 4th year now. Finished MS1-2 comfortably passing (straight P/F school for MS1-MS2). Did above average on Step 1 and even better on Step 2. Never had a problem passing my shelf exams and did really well on a couple of them.
 
Goro said:
Just as an aside, if one has a 3.3 GPA, one can handle med school.

Everything depends upon work ethic, and time mgt.
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Have you gone through medical scool? How would you know? I think most 3.3s would have a tough time, not fail, but it wont be easy.

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Snuck in with a 3.09. Now mid 2nd quartile. Because of my poor undergrad grades, I learned how precious it is to even have a chance at training to be a physician. Told myself day1 of med school that I'm absolutely comfortable with getting failed out of med school except for reasons of work ethic. So far so good... :]
 
I teach at a medical school...I know what my students are capable of. Stats aren't everything.


Favoritefarm said:
Have you gone through medical scool? How would you know? I think most 3.3s would have a tough time, not fail, but it wont be easy.

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You're OK.

DoReMiFaSo said:
Snuck in with a 3.09. Now mid 2nd quartile. Because of my poor undergrad grades, I learned how precious it is to even have a chance at training to be a physician. Told myself day1 of med school that I'm absolutely comfortable with getting failed out of med school except for reasons of work ethic. So far so good... :]
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Goro said:
I teach at a medical school...I know what my students are capable of. Stats aren't everything.
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I also taught students immunology but wouldnt know the rigor of getting my phd in immumology, you know?

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What's that got to do with anything? Humble brag?

I also have a PhD, in a different Basic Science field also known for it's jargon.

So, your point?


Favoritefarm said:
I also taught students immunology but wouldnt know the rigor of getting my phd in immumology, you know?

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Goro said:
What's that got to do with anything? Humble brag?

I also have a PhD, in a different Basic Science field also known for it's jargon.

So, your point?
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Point is teaching something like the cell cycle, for example, to first year DO students in preclinical years is like 2 percent of the fund of knowledge you need to know to graduate med school successfully. So having a teaching role in that 2% doesnt qualify you. Ony if you went through the process would it qualify you. See my point?

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Favoritefarm said:
I also taught students immunology but wouldnt know the rigor of getting my phd in immumology, you know?

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If you had access to all of your (assuming you taught undergrad as a TA or something) students high school GPA metrics and found a trend, I would say you were capable of stating something like "students with above a 3.3 tend to have no problem in this immunology class".

@Goro teaches med school, I'd make a similar case for him

Edit: also he probably knows his students and sees who graduates and who doesn't
 
Favoritefarm said:
I also taught students immunology but wouldnt know the rigor of getting my phd in immumology, you know?

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This makes no sense. A teacher and adcom member will obviously know what kind of academic background their kids come from and how they are doing in their classes now. All of this information would be readily available for them. It would take almost no effort to see the connections.
 
kamakazi5 said:
This makes no sense. A teacher and adcom member will obviously know what kind of academic background their kids come from and how they are doing in their classes now. All of this information would be readily available for them. It would take almost no effort to see the connections.
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He is n equals 1, right?

Are you a medical student? Do you think faculty know everyones incoming GPA? The answer is no. A huge no.

Do you know where he teaches? Good school or a diploma mill?

Do you know what the school's student body is like?

You are right, it literally takes no effort to see the connecion. Or lack thereof.

Sdn has barious threads of advisors in colleges that give "bad advice" and it all stems from the fact that these advisors have not gone through the application process so of course they dont know the answers to basic questions that premeds have. So premeds come on to sdn to ask other people that went through the process, makes total sense.

Whats going on here is there are people on sdn that also give advice about medical school itself that have not gone through it. And so to me, a person that went through medical school successfully, i have to kinda call it out. Thats all.



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mitrieD said:
For those of you who got into med school with a low GPA, how are you handling med school now?
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Too many confounders like years off, postgrad training, your personality, etc. For what it's worth 3.8 from 70th ranked state school, lower 50th in class. I think UG GPA was more of a test of broad academic knowledge and critical thinking while medical school is deals with first learning a new language, then learning how to apply it while gaining people and procedural skills. I've seen extremely intelligent individuals with strong understanding of the fundamentals of science, engineering and math do poorly, while I've seen slack-offs from podunks who took all the easy classes in college who never studied any detailed biology get AOA. Medical school is kinda like going back to square one educationally with a bit faster pace in a way in that there's so much to learn.

I tell pre-meds like it's going back to square one of school again. There's no time for thought of past success or failure.

Year 1-2 = elementary school (learning the basics)

Year 3-4 = middle school (learning how to apply basics with no real-life consequences)

Intern year = high school (**** gets real)

Rest of Years = College (learning finer details for the job you're going to do so you are technically qualified to be a person in the workforce)

Fellowship: Masters

Subspecialty: PhD



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Last edited:
*Sigh* Once doesn't have to be a chicken to know something about eggs.

Being a Faculty member doesn't mean that you show up with your PPT files, teach, and then disappear.

Having served on the Adcom for close to 20 years, and following the outcome of our 1500+ students with COMLEX, graduation, and going to residencies, we Faculty know something about the capabilities of students coming in, during and going out of med school. This is part of our job.

Hence, we know that someone with a 3.3 can handle our curriculum. Now, just because you had trouble in med school, doesn't mean everyone does. I'm just saying, in general, someone with a B+ can handle med school.

< 3.2 is where we have seen students struggle. Students with > 3.6 seem to grasp things faster, and recall faster. But again, in the aggregate, they all can handle what we throw at them.
BTW, I've been on Faculty at an MD school as well. and been around med students at three others. The observations hold.



Favoritefarm said:
Point is teaching something like the cell cycle, for example, to first year DO students in preclinical years is like 2 percent of the fund of knowledge you need to know to graduate med school successfully. So having a teaching role in that 2% doesnt qualify you. Ony if you went through the process would it qualify you. See my point?

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Click to expand...
 
Favoritefarm said:
He is n equals 1, right?

Are you a medical student? Do you think faculty know everyones incoming GPA? The answer is no. A huge no.

Do you know where he teaches? Good school or a diploma mill?

Do you know what the school's student body is like?

You are right, it literally takes no effort to see the connecion. Or lack thereof.

Sdn has barious threads of advisors in colleges that give "bad advice" and it all stems from the fact that these advisors have not gone through the application process so of course they dont know the answers to basic questions that premeds have. So premeds come on to sdn to ask other people that went through the process, makes total sense.

Whats going on here is there are people on sdn that also give advice about medical school itself that have not gone through it. And so to me, a person that went through medical school successfully, i have to kinda call it out. Thats all.



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Click to expand...

You're a bit of a tosser, aren't you?
 
Goro said:
*Sigh* Once doesn't have to be a chicken to know something about eggs.

Being a Faculty member doesn't mean that you show up with your PPT files, teach, and then disappear.

Having served on the Adcom for close to 20 years, and following the outcome of our 1500+ students with COMLEX, graduation, and going to residencies, we Faculty know something about the capabilities of students coming in, during and going out of med school. This is part of our job.

Hence, we know that someone with a 3.3 can handle our curriculum. Now, just because you had trouble in med school, doesn't mean everyone does. I'm just saying, in general, someone with a B+ can handle med school.

< 3.2 is where we have seen students struggle. Students with > 3.6 seem to grasp things faster, and recall faster. But again, in the aggregate, they all can handle what we throw at them.
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Sigh .... i guess we can agree to disagree bud.

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Favoritefarm said:
He is n equals 1, right?

Are you a medical student? Do you think faculty know everyones incoming GPA? The answer is no. A huge no.

Do you know where he teaches? Good school or a diploma mill?

Do you know what the school's student body is like?

You are right, it literally takes no effort to see the connecion. Or lack thereof.

Sdn has barious threads of advisors in colleges that give "bad advice" and it all stems from the fact that these advisors have not gone through the application process so of course they dont know the answers to basic questions that premeds have. So premeds come on to sdn to ask other people that went through the process, makes total sense.

Whats going on here is there are people on sdn that also give advice about medical school itself that have not gone through it. And so to me, a person that went through medical school successfully, i have to kinda call it out. Thats all.



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Click to expand...

I am curious to know how many applications and medical students you have taught. I too went through medical school successfully. I went for undergrad and medical school at two of the top schools in the country. I then matched at a competitive program in a very competitive specialty. Now, I have been directly involved from a teaching side in medical and surgical education for 7 years and have reviewed applications for medical school or residency for 5 of them. I say this because you seem to think that it matters for these discussions as I ordinarily wouldn't feel the need to not so humble brag. For the record, as I stated previously, I tend to agree with Goro's assessment. It is hard to find students that fail out of medical school or struggle because they 'aren't smart enough'. Certainly not every 3.3 gpa student is going to sail through medical school, but in my experience schools tend to be pretty good about selecting the ones that are going to do just fine.

But, more than that, there are plenty of people who have not gone through medical school that understand and appreciate medical school applications, medical school and further training better than physicians. In the same vein, there are plenty of physicians that give God awful advice and the majority of the time have no idea that they know nothing about what they are talking about, but their hubris keeps their mouth going. I tend to speak in less absolutes than Goro and certainly disagree with some of his opinions about this process and medical education as a whole. But, to flat out say that someone has nothing to add to a discussion because they aren't a physician is not only rude and insulting, but also simply pathological. Physicians don't have all the answers and yes, we can absolutely be taught by others, even if they have spent less time formally training to do what we do.
 
mimelim said:
I am curious to know how many applications and medical students you have taught. I too went through medical school successfully. I went for undergrad and medical school at two of the top schools in the country. I then matched at a competitive program in a very competitive specialty. Now, I have been directly involved from a teaching side in medical and surgical education for 7 years and have reviewed applications for medical school or residency for 5 of them. I say this because you seem to think that it matters for these discussions as I ordinarily wouldn't feel the need to not so humble brag. For the record, as I stated previously, I tend to agree with Goro's assessment. It is hard to find students that fail out of medical school or struggle because they 'aren't smart enough'. Certainly not every 3.3 gpa student is going to sail through medical school, but in my experience schools tend to be pretty good about selecting the ones that are going to do just fine.

But, more than that, there are plenty of people who have not gone through medical school that understand and appreciate medical school applications, medical school and further training better than physicians. In the same vein, there are plenty of physicians that give God awful advice and the majority of the time have no idea that they know nothing about what they are talking about, but their hubris keeps their mouth going. I tend to speak in less absolutes than Goro and certainly disagree with some of his opinions about this process and medical education as a whole. But, to flat out say that someone has nothing to add to a discussion because they aren't a physician is not only rude and insulting, but also simply pathological. Physicians don't have all the answers and yes, we can absolutely be taught by others, even if they have spent less time formally training to do what we do.
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i

Yes, sir. I didnt say non-physicians have nothing to add. I just dont appreciate the absolute authoritative statements that certain people make ... that i feel are not in a position to make them.

I learn from non-mds all the time, still today in residency. And did very well in medical scool primarily because of non-mds.

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Favoritefarm said:
He is n equals 1, right?

Are you a medical student? Do you think faculty know everyones incoming GPA? The answer is no. A huge no.

Do you know where he teaches? Good school or a diploma mill?

Do you know what the school's student body is like?

You are right, it literally takes no effort to see the connecion. Or lack thereof.

Sdn has barious threads of advisors in colleges that give "bad advice" and it all stems from the fact that these advisors have not gone through the application process so of course they dont know the answers to basic questions that premeds have. So premeds come on to sdn to ask other people that went through the process, makes total sense.

Whats going on here is there are people on sdn that also give advice about medical school itself that have not gone through it. And so to me, a person that went through medical school successfully, i have to kinda call it out. Thats all.



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Click to expand...

Why the hate on @Goro ? He or she is clearly significantly knowledgeable about the process and what it takes to be a doctor. Does Goro have to be an active member on SDN? No he or she does it to provide guidance to pre meds hoping to become doctors. As an ad com and faculty member that's probably the best advice we will ever receive and I think goro knows a lot about how students perform.


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Many thanks for the kinds words, colleague. To follow up on the bolded, I have had VERY few students who didn't "get" medical school..meaning, the mere academics, not the pace or volume, did them in.

In my experience, the people who have trouble with med school have either:

Mental or physical health issues (#1 reason)
Family or life issues
Poor coping skills
Poor time mgt skills
Poor work ethic
Didn't really want to go to med school, but did so due to family pressure.
Didn't really understand what they were getting into (a very rare phenotype)

mimelim said:
I am curious to know how many applications and medical students you have taught. I too went through medical school successfully. I went for undergrad and medical school at two of the top schools in the country. I then matched at a competitive program in a very competitive specialty. Now, I have been directly involved from a teaching side in medical and surgical education for 7 years and have reviewed applications for medical school or residency for 5 of them. I say this because you seem to think that it matters for these discussions as I ordinarily wouldn't feel the need to not so humble brag. For the record, as I stated previously, I tend to agree with Goro's assessment. It is hard to find students that fail out of medical school or struggle because they 'aren't smart enough'. Certainly not every 3.3 gpa student is going to sail through medical school, but in my experience schools tend to be pretty good about selecting the ones that are going to do just fine.

But, more than that, there are plenty of people who have not gone through medical school that understand and appreciate medical school applications, medical school and further training better than physicians. In the same vein, there are plenty of physicians that give God awful advice and the majority of the time have no idea that they know nothing about what they are talking about, but their hubris keeps their mouth going. I tend to speak in less absolutes than Goro and certainly disagree with some of his opinions about this process and medical education as a whole. But, to flat out say that someone has nothing to add to a discussion because they aren't a physician is not only rude and insulting, but also simply pathological. Physicians don't have all the answers and yes, we can absolutely be taught by others, even if they have spent less time formally training to do what we do.
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UG 3.1
Grad 3.6
MCAT 29


Graduated med school with a 3.95

Sometimes the combination of material that interests you, a sense of ownership of your edu, and a new sense of responsibility can propel you. To be fair, I got engaged early in med school to a longtime girlfriend (now wife) and had a MUCH easier time saying no to the drama some of my younger classmates suffered from.

I personally found med school to be a blast.
 
lightblueelephant said:
Why the hate on @Goro ? He or she is clearly significantly knowledgeable about the process and what it takes to be a doctor. Does Goro have to be an active member on SDN? No he or she does it to provide guidance to pre meds hoping to become doctors. As an ad com and faculty member that's probably the best advice we will ever receive and I think goro knows a lot about how students perform.


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If you venture to the allopathic board there is actually a pretty sizeable number of people who think @Goro is an overrated dingus. It seems to be primarily because he is not shy about saying that physicians are no longer the "big cheese," as he likes to say, and that medicine is a team sport.

I'm honestly not sure what the problem with that is, because even team sports need a captain and a coach.
 
@mimelim It seems like the skills you said are important in MS 3/4 are also important in research. Would you agree?
 
They also don't like it that I point out that just because they have more schooling, it doesn't make them better human beings. A lot of their unprofessionalism over there in the "mid-levels R stealing R jobs!" threads is due to elitism, ego and probably some misogyny as well.

Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
If you venture to the allopathic board there is actually a pretty sizeable number of people who think @Goro is an overrated dingus. It seems to be primarily because he is not shy about saying that physicians are no longer the "big cheese," as he likes to say, and that medicine is a team sport.

I'm honestly not sure what the problem with that is, because even team sports need a captain and a coach.
Click to expand...
 
I got in with a low GPA and low MCAT (took it 4 times and never got over 29). I wrote a post last year re: my journey. You can see it here (https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/my-journey-low-gpa-low-mcat.1196665/#post-17691082)

My stats are below average of the stats of my class, but I am currently in the top quartile of my class: received high 80's - high 90's in the blocks, and loving med school. I am just a MS1, so this is probably premature to say. I know there is a lot of skepticism about my poor GPA/MCAT and my ability to do well in STEP 1. I am hopeful to report good news next year after Step 1.
 
Goro said:
They also don't like it that I point out that just because they have more schooling, it doesn't make them better human beings. A lot of their unprofessionalism over there in the "mid-levels R stealing R jobs!" threads is due to elitism, ego and probably some misogyny as well.
Click to expand...

I do think that more education does give the opportunity to be a better doctor, but that has no bearing on the quality of the person. But I can say from personal experience that many mid-levels tend to go based purely on experience and anecdata vice EBM. Doctors aren't immune from this either though. But using that extra education definitely gives you an advantage--and the ability to be the coach.
 
Something I forgot to mention is that one's cGPA does NOT tell the entire story, if your last two years in college (or post-bac) have strong grades. For many people, the you of now is not the you of then.

Oh I fully get that. There's a reason why doctors have to supervise NPs. But the argument over in Allo is not "NPs kill patients", but "I know more than they do, so how dare those peasants rise above their station!" This is a very different mindset. But we digress.


I do think that more education does give the opportunity to be a better doctor, but that has no bearing on the quality of the person. But I can say from personal experience that many mid-levels tend to go based purely on experience and anecdata vice EBM. Doctors aren't immune from this either though. But using that extra education definitely gives you an advantage--and the ability to be the coach.
 
Goro said:
Something I forgot to mention is that one's cGPA does NOT tell the entire story, if your last two years in college (or post-bac) have strong grades. For many people, the you of now is not the you of then.

Oh I fully get that. There's a reason why doctors have to supervise NPs. But the argument over in Allo is not "NPs kill patients", but "I know more than they do, so how dare those peasants rise above their station!" This is a very different mindset. But we digress.


I do think that more education does give the opportunity to be a better doctor, but that has no bearing on the quality of the person. But I can say from personal experience that many mid-levels tend to go based purely on experience and anecdata vice EBM. Doctors aren't immune from this either though. But using that extra education definitely gives you an advantage--and the ability to be the coach.
Click to expand...

We're in complete agreement there.
 
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