for which fields is research required (or recommended)?

[yeet]

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Hello 🙂 This is my first post since getting accepted. I've been a pre-med lurker for awhile.

I'm really not sure about what field of medicine that I want to pursue and I only did a small amount of research as an undergrad. Should I get serious about research early on in medical school to not count myself out of certain fields? And does pursuing a primary care field mean that no research is required?

Thanks and nice to meet you all!

 

[Anti-PD1]

Research is important in any competitive specialty, so, rad-onc, neurosurgery, ENT/derm/plastics/Ortho/top IM etc.

But then again, in every specialty, there is a residency program(s) that is considered elite, and so research can help regardless. I don't know if primary care means research is not required, but basically, it's not as high a priority.

The charting outcomes can be helpful to determine what is important to PDs in each specialty:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

Get involved in research if you are interested in doing do, and preferably in a specialty that is the most competitive of the potential specialties you are interested in.

 

[yeet]

The charting outcomes PDF is gold. Thanks!

 

[ERDOC555]

For the following fields, research is practically a hard requirement. There are always exceptions, but don't expect to get interviews without at least some research. I think this hits them all (I may have forgotten 1 or 2)

Derm
Rad Onc
Ophto - Not as critical as others from what I heard, someone else should chime in here.
Plastics
ENT
Uro
Vascular
Neurosurgery
CT Surgery
Ortho
Interventional Radiology
Top Internal Medicine

If the field is not on this list it means you can easily match that specialty with no research whatsoever.

 

[holycrap]

I like your name

 

[neoevolution]

If the field is not on this list it means you can easily match that specialty with no research whatsoever.

is this really the case? I think the majority of my class did research over our M1 summer; is that just because higher tier programs in any field will want research? what about mid tier IM?

 

[Frogger27]

is this really the case? I think the majority of my class did research over our M1 summer; is that just because higher tier programs in any field will want research? what about mid tier IM?

an IM program at an academic institution will most likely like to see research, but you do not have to be lighting the world on fire with multiple pubs, etc.

But again, I do not think it is an absolute requirement if the rest of the application is solid.

 

[tarheelpenner]

Research is important in any competitive specialty, so, rad-onc, neurosurgery, ENT/derm/plastics/Ortho/top IM etc.

But then again, in every specialty, there is a residency program(s) that is considered elite, and so research can help regardless. I don't know if primary care means research is not required, but basically, it's not as high a priority.

The charting outcomes can be helpful to determine what is important to PDs in each specialty:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

Get involved in research if you are interested in doing do, and preferably in a specialty that is the most competitive of the potential specialties you are interested in.

What are contiguous ranks?

 

[efle]

What are contiguous ranks?

Ranks in a row for the match, for example if someone is trying to match derm. The average person to successfully match derm interviewed at and ranked 9 different derm residencies back to back on their list.

At least that's my understanding

 

[efle]

It's crazy to think the typical match in some of these specialties churned out 10-12 abstracts/pubs just during med school.

 

[tarheelpenner]

It's crazy to think the typical match in some of these specialties churned out 10-12 abstracts/pubs just during med school.

I was thinking this. Like I'm interested in neurological surgery, but the average is like 13-14 pubs. I've been in research 2 years and gotten 0 lol, maybe 1 at the end of this year.

 

[Astra]

It's crazy to think the typical match in some of these specialties churned out 10-12 abstracts/pubs just during med school.

A lot of people do gap research years. Plus clinical research papers are much easier to do

 

[begoood95]

A lot of people do gap research years. Plus clinical research papers are much easier to do

Can someone explain this to me? Why would clinical research be easier(/faster?) to do?

 

[premed1234567891011]

Is research important for general surgery?

 

[efle]

A lot of people do gap research years. Plus clinical research papers are much easier to do

That makes sense, my gap year is in clinical research and I think my name is on like half a dozen abstracts after a full year of full time work. I can't imagine hitting the numbers on some of these surgical specialties just during summers. A year for research must be becoming the norm, sort of like gap years after undergrad are becoming the norm for the most competitive MD programs

 

[tarheelpenner]

Is research important for general surgery?

Average person who matched into general surgery had 4.7 research "experiences". Unmatched had 3.3. All of the charts are in this document, as posted above, that is super helpful. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Allopathic-Seniors-2016.pdf

 

[Astra]

Can someone explain this to me? Why would clinical research be easier(/faster?) to do?

its more data analysis, writing rather than doing experiments.

 

[efle]

Can someone explain this to me? Why would clinical research be easier(/faster?) to do?

I can give you my two cents:

In basic science things move slow, stuff constantly goes wrong, you very easily can sink tons of time and money into something and turn up 0 worthwhile results months later. Many, many hours just to get a poster.

In clinical you can do bite-size projects that are basically guaranteed to produce something (though perhaps not something very interesting). Retro chart review is the key, just look up hundreds of patients that had Procedure X and then look to see among those that had Co-Morbidity Y, is variable Z different? That kind of thing. It's reliable and the hours required for a poster's worth of material are orders of magnitude lower. In fact you can often generate multiple posters/abstracts off of one giant review.

Prospective clinical stuff (e.g. device trials) again returns to being a lot slower and less of a fit for someone looking to churn out a bunch of stuff in a summer.

 

[begoood95]

its more data analysis, writing rather than doing experiments.

I can give you my two cents:

In basic science things move slow, stuff constantly goes wrong, you very easily can sink tons of time and money into something and turn up 0 worthwhile results months later. Many, many hours just to get a poster.

In clinical you can do bite-size projects that are basically guaranteed to produce something (though perhaps not something very interesting). Retro chart review is the key, just look up hundreds of patients that had Procedure X and then look to see among those that had Co-Morbidity Y, is variable Z different? That kind of thing. It's reliable and the hours required for a poster's worth of material are orders of magnitude lower. In fact you can often generate multiple posters/abstracts off of one giant review.

Prospective clinical stuff (e.g. device trials) again returns to being a lot slower and less of a fit for someone looking to churn out a bunch of stuff in a summer.

Yeah, I guess I was only picturing the latter things you mentioned (like device trials). Makes sense.

 

[mcloaf]

I was thinking this. Like I'm interested in neurological surgery, but the average is like 13-14 pubs. I've been in research 2 years and gotten 0 lol, maybe 1 at the end of this year.

This is a situation where reporting the median would be much more informative than reporting the mean. The distributions are likely heavily skewed by applicants who completed PhDs and other research degrees--no regular applicant would be expected to have a similar level of research output IMO (edit: chart 14 includes graduate degrees which somewhat confirms this, though derm and plastics look rough, wew. there are some weird things going on in there [looking at you, child neuro]). Additionally, those numbers are not reflective of publications, but a combination of manuscripts, abstracts, and presentations. It wouldn't be surprising for someone to have 5+ "research experiences" by this metric but maybe only 1 actual published manuscript, if that. Abstracts are not exceedingly difficult to achieve, and students in busy research groups will often end up with their name attached to things with relatively little work on their part.

 

[tarheelpenner]

This is a situation where reporting the median would be much more informative than reporting the mean. The distributions are likely heavily skewed by applicants who completed PhDs and other research degrees--no regular applicant would be expected to have a similar level of research output IMO (edit: chart 14 includes graduate degrees which somewhat confirms this, though derm and plastics look rough, wew. there are some weird things going on in there [looking at you, child neuro]). Additionally, those numbers are not reflective of publications, but a combination of manuscripts, abstracts, and presentations. It wouldn't be surprising for someone to have 5+ "research experiences" by this metric but maybe only 1 actual published manuscript, if that. Abstracts are not exceedingly difficult to achieve, and students in busy research groups will often end up with their name attached to things with relatively little work on their part.

ohhhh I forgot about MD-PhD. And yeah I realize that posters count, but even like tiny poster presentations at your school?

 

[efle]

I forgot about MD-PhD

Just thought I'd add that the tables also show % with a graduate degree in addition to MD, and yeah it's pretty high for some of the most research intense.

For example ~1/4 neurosurg have an additional graduate degree

 

[ERDOC555]

is this really the case? I think the majority of my class did research over our M1 summer; is that just because higher tier programs in any field will want research? what about mid tier IM?

Yeah pretty much, the vast majority of doctors will never publish again after residency as they will practice in a hospital, clinic, private practice where research isn't a priority, compared to an academic teaching institution. Residencies realize this and thus most non-competitive specialties don't really care a whole lot about research, they're looking to train clinicians not researchers. The exception though are the top tier programs in any field. If you want to go to an exceptional OB/GYN or Psych residency research experience will be necessary, but for your average student who wants to match into a specialty not on that list, they can match at a program somewhere with 0 research and a passing step score.

As for the summer research everyone does, there are several reasons people chose research.
1). You're interested in competitive specialties or top programs in non-competitive specialties
2). You get credit for a pretty chill couple of months that you get to bank for time off later on.
3). A little bit of peer pressure. Lots of people at my school are doing summer research just because a lot of students are doing it and they think they should as well.

I'd day my class is split 50/50 between option 1 and option 2/3

 

[redsox93]

It's crazy to think the typical match in some of these specialties churned out 10-12 abstracts/pubs just during med school.

probably MD/Ph.D people right?

EDIT: Sorry didn't read the rest of the thread

 

[tarheelpenner]

quick question...for residency applications, can we include research that we did prior to matriculating medical school? Or is it solely what we do in medical school that counts?

 

[efle]

quick question...for residency applications, can we include research that we did prior to matriculating medical school? Or is it solely what we do in medical school that counts?

pubs are forever

 

[tarheelpenner]

pubs are forever

Yay! What about just things like poster presentations?

 

[efle]

Yay! What about just things like poster presentations?

I personally would probably not include posters from that many years ago on residency app. If the pub was on the same body of work as your poster(s) then you should just list the pub anyways

 

[Frogger27]

I was thinking this. Like I'm interested in neurological surgery, but the average is like 13-14 pubs. I've been in research 2 years and gotten 0 lol, maybe 1 at the end of this year.

These people have 13-14 abstracts, presentations or publications... Not just straight publications. It is not hard to do if you are in a productive lab, especially if you take a full gap year. I am in a gap year in a productive lab (prior to med school) and I will have 5 abstracts, 5 presentations and up to 3 pubs

 

[tarheelpenner]

These people have 13-14 abstracts, presentations or publications... Not just straight publications. It is not hard to do if you are in a productive lab, especially if you take a full gap year. I am in a gap year in a productive lab (prior to med school) and I will have 5 abstracts, 5 presentations and up to 3 pubs

I'm in a gap year too. I will have 1 abstract, 1 presentation and up to 2 pubs. I am in basic science though, so maybe that's why its been so low yield.

 

[Frogger27]

I'm in a gap year too. I will have 1 abstract, 1 presentation and up to 2 pubs. I am in basic science though, so maybe that's why its been so low yield.

That's still an extremely productive year, good job!.. You have 4 of the 13-14 an average neurosurgery resident has 😉 My main project is basic science, but thrown onto a couple clinical abstracts/posters I did data analysis on

 

[yeet]

great responses- thank you all! I think I was getting nervous that residency would require all med students to show crazy successful research.

To be completely honest, I see myself following the normal flow of research after the first year of medical school with hopefully some decent contributions to clinical work in my areas of interest as my basic science research background is 0. I guess if I realize I want to pursue the most competitive fields as mentioned above I'll do an extra research year, which sounds normal for many students.