Forensic Path Program Reviews?

[Ulrich]

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I did a search and cannot find the info I need....

1) Is there an internet resource where I can find reviews/descriptions of the various FP fellowship positions? If not, is there anyone out there who can chime in and describe features of the various programs (gained by personal experience)?

2) I am planning on applying for a 2012 position, but I would love to here about any openings for 2011. All of the websites aren't up to date regarding this matter.

Best,
Ulrich

 

[HbyHA]

there really isn't a lot of info out there. you basically have to contact the programs yourself. FRIEDA has a list of programs. from what i understand, the top 3-4 are as follows (in no particular order): New Mexico, Baltimore, Miami, and New York. I doubt any of those places have a position open for 2011, and some may soon be sewn up for 2012. they start WAY early. I got my position in Nov 2008 for July 2010.

 

[Atomic]

I agree with those being the top 4 places to train. If I am not mistaken, all 4 take 4 fellows each year, and fill 1 1/2 to 2 years in advance.

From what I have heard, New Mexico and New York are set up essentially the same way, with structured didactics, journal clubs, etc. In Miami, you will have a higher salary, but are expected to be the on-site medical investigator for all homicides, so essentially you are working 2 jobs (from what I have been told, please correct me if I am wrong!)

I don't know any specifics on Baltimore...

Good luck to you!

 

[KCShaw]

For resources, keep asking around. I don't know of a one-stop-shop for accurate fellowship reviews, though FRIEDA should at least link you to any relevant program websites/contact information.

I also generally agree with the programs listed, but wouldn't overlook other places like Dallas, Atlanta, Richmond. For what it's worth, New Mexico (Albuquerque) and Baltimore are moving into spiffy new facilities, too, and are among the extremely few places to regularly perform post-mortem CT's.

Miami: from what I remember their philosophy is that a fellow is like junior staff, handling all of the same things attendings do, but obviously with a lot of help early on. As I recall a fellow does go to all homicides, but I'm pretty certain NOT as the sole investigator..a forensic investigator would handle their own part. Bottom line is that you get more scene experience in Miami than in a lot of places.

NYC: Dunno about their day-to-day, except that most people have said it's well organized and the progression through the year is well structured. They also offer an additional year after fellowship (sort of a unique junior-staff position), where your main responsibility is to cut hearts & brains that were saved for more detailed examination. I've always thought that was a pretty nice way of getting additional cardiac & neuro experience without having to do a separate cardiac or neuro fellowship.

Baltimore: One of the fellows is usually a rotator from the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner. You'll quickly ramp up to cutting 2 cases a day most days (often a homicide and something else), rotating weekends with the other fellows. A little later you get a paper-day each week to help keep you caught up. You can very easily end up with 300 autopsies, but as you approach that number you'll get tapered down. They've got a lecture series, weekly neuropath conference with a neuropathologist from Hopkins who brings a fellow and goes over saved brains, and a cardiac path group does daily pickups and several conferences through the year. Pretty good working & research relationship with the University of Maryland Department of Radiology, among others. Usually all the fellows go to AAFS and present something or other, and you go to several off-site workshops/crime labs throughout the year.

I tell people a lot that these places can fill 3 years ahead, BUT it's not unheard of for one of those early commitments to back out to chase a more lucrative offer -- so don't count them out until you've talked to them. I also tell people that while doing a rotation at one of them as a resident isn't required, it's recommended. Even if you end up deciding you don't like the city you rotated at, it just looks good even to the other top places, and most won't hesitate to call someone they know at the office you did rotate at for an opinion. If you can't rotate at a "top" place, absolutely rotate with an FP -somewhere-.

 

[zao275]

I am not a forensics person, but I can give a few pieces of info that might be helpful:

1. I created a pathology wiki for the CAP Residents Forum. I have a list of all pathology residencies and fellowships on the wiki (it is lacking a handful of fellowships but I should have those added soon). The goal is to make it easier for applicants to find info about programs. I hope to get residents and fellows to write comments about their programs (pros and cons...the insider info that you would talk to a candidate about over lunch or coffee. stuff you would not necessarily find on the program website). Here is the link:

http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Pathology_Fellowship_and_Residency_Directory

I currently have all programs listed by state, but I hope to have them organized by subspecialty very soon. I will make the forensic fellowship list first and post the link here for you guys once I have it completed.

Also, as a side note, I am trying to get residents and fellows to go to the wiki and add comments/reviews about their training programs. If any of you would be willing to write some brief comments on your programs on the wiki, it would be very helpful. Because it is a wiki, anyone can edit it, so I basically hope that the wiki will be a list of programs like FRIEDA but with more useful info and program reviews. The wiki also has some board study materials, lots of links, etc. I just started it about 3 months ago so it is a work in progress.



2. All of our residents are required to do one month of forensics at the Harris County Medical Examiners Office in Houston, Texas. It is located just down the street from the world famous Texas Medical Center (largest med center in the world). As I said, I am not a forensic type of guy, but I really enjoyed my month at the MEO in Houston. They have lots of cases, obviously. Fellows do some scene investigation with the detectives, but I don't think they are required to go always. I heard that the pay is pretty good (around $90,000/yr) but that is word of mouth only, so take it with a grain of salt. The MEO is housed in a large forensic sciences building that contains a ballistics lab (with a HUGE collection of exotic guns!), toxicology and dna labs, etc. A forensic anthropologist is on staff there as well. A very good neuropathologist goes to the MEO weekly to do brain cutting. I think they have about 10 medical examiners (maybe more? it has been a few years since I did my rotation). Two of my friends did their fellowship there and they seemed happy with it. I had heard that the medical examiner office had a bunch of problems and even legal trouble about 10 years ago or so, and that the program got a very bad name at that time. But they hired a new chief ME about 5 years ago and he has really cleaned things up, hired new people, and basically turned things around. I have no idea about how far in advance they are filled for fellowship. I would certainly look into the program if you want to do forensics.

 

[zao275]

Here is the link to the Harris County Forensic Pathology Fellowship (Houston, TX): http://www.hctx.net/ifs/educational.aspx

 

[KCShaw]

Houston! I feel bad for having neglected it earlier -- yeah, I recall people talking about it in a positive up-and-coming sort of way with Dr. Sanchez at the helm and nice new facilities with a lot of in-house capabilities.

 

[HbyHA]

NYC: Dunno about their day-to-day, except that most people have said it's well organized and the progression through the year is well structured. They also offer an additional year after fellowship (sort of a unique junior-staff position), where your main responsibility is to cut hearts & brains that were saved for more detailed examination. I've always thought that was a pretty nice way of getting additional cardiac & neuro experience without having to do a separate cardiac or neuro fellowship.

I also tell people that while doing a rotation at one of them as a resident isn't required, it's recommended.

from what i understand, the additional year after fellowship is less like a junior-staff position and more a non-accredited forensic cardiac/neuro fellowship. you have to let them know that you are applying for this when you apply for the regular fellowship. it is REQUIRED to rotate there for applying to the fellowship. they won't let you rotate as an outsider (not a path program that uses the Office as their FP rotation) if you're not applying and you can't apply if you don't rotate there (though maybe they make rare exceptions).

 

[KCShaw]

I reckon I stand corrected. I don't think I'd heard of a truly "required" rotation in order to get a fellowship..anywhere, really, not that I paid attention much beyond FP, and evidently not that well. Yeah, places where you wouldn't expect to get a fellowship if you didn't rotate there or already know people there pretty well for some other reason, but not advertised as "required." (Not sure it should be an allowed requirement if a place is accredited, especially given that several/numerous? institutions make it difficult to practically impossible to DO an away rotation -- but that's another ball of wax.)

Thanks for the correction!

I think that any place one is seriously considering one should give an early phone call to and have some dialogue -- even you PGY1's who are thinking about it early. As comes up regularly networking is important, as is simply staying up on the latest information direct from the source.