Forensic Pathology - AP only or AP/CP

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Iceman24

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Hi!
I know that I'm going to go to FP fellowship so should I bother with one more year of training?
Would AP/CP be somehow beneficial in future?
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks.

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My experience is that about half of practicing FP's did a CP residency. If you are convinced that you want to exclusively do FP, than there is no definitive reason to spend the extra time with a CP residency.
 
My experience is that about half of practicing FP's did a CP residency.
Are you serious?... Official requirement for the FP fellowship is AP only or AP/CP board eligibility. But not CP only.
 
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Will defense attorneys question why you are not AP/CP?
If I were you I'd get CP as well.

The big ? is what do you know about the forensics boards? You do realize there is a good bit of microbiology on them. I would consider this carefully because unless I'm mistaken there is no going back once you leave CP behind.
 
I don't know the stats off-hand of the number of FP's out there who are AP-boarded only, but I would guess there is a sizable number. Where I trained, the attending FP at the County Coroner's office was AP boarded only and he had been an expert witness in many court cases and/or to give testimony and I don't think the lack of CP training ever caused any issues. Also, one of our resident's who went into forensics trained in AP/CP, but only took AP boards (and FP of course). On the flip side, to give an example; if a resident wanted to go into medical microbiology or direct a lab as a clinical chemist, AP would be of no benefit in practice or legally, so why would they do it? But if there's any doubt forensics might not be what you end up doing for the rest of your career, then CP would be good to have under your belt.
 
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Are you serious?... Official requirement for the FP fellowship is AP only or AP/CP board eligibility. But not CP only.
To the OP-Reread my initial post, I thought I clearly stated that my experience is that approximately half of the practicing FP's did a CP residency-meaning half were AP only. I did not state that half of FP's were CP only. One can not sit for the FP boards w/o being AP certified.
Torsed-Where on earth did you get the notion that there was a good amount of microbiology on the FP boards? I do not recall a single micro question when I took the FP boards. Additionally, I have never once been asked by a defence attorney if I had both AP/CP boards, as opposed to being AP only certified.
 
If you are certain you want to do FP, check into the requirements for the fellowship programs you might be interested in. Some fellowship programs only accept AP/CP candidates.
 
If you are certain you want to do FP, check into the requirements for the fellowship programs you might be interested in. Some fellowship programs only accept AP/CP candidates.
I'm skeptical about this. I know of no such programs.

The short answer to this is it really doesn't matter. There are successful AP only FPs, successful AP/CP FPs, and crap amongst both piles as well. The longer answer is much more detailed, and there are pros and cons to both approaches. I did AP only, and 98% of the time, it doesn't matter. Every now and then, I'm asking a colleague for help or consulting a book on microbiology topics. I am glad I did one month of blood bank and a few months of hemepath - both for boards and work.

To the OP - if you want to discuss this further, PM me and we can set up a video or phone chat. I struggled with the same decision 6 years ago, so I know where you are coming from.
 
I'm skeptical about this. I know of no such programs.

You are correct. I visited the websites of the two programs that I knew in the past had only accepted AP/CP candidates, and both have changed their requirements to allow AP only as well. Thanks for the information.
 
there is no going back once you leave CP behind.
Actually it is a good point to address.
There is a CP only resident in our program, he switched right before the 3rd year. He was told by the PD that he can return in future to do 1 year of AP if he will need to do it.
 
Will defense attorneys question why you are not AP/CP?
If I were you I'd get CP as well.

The big ? is what do you know about the forensics boards? You do realize there is a good bit of microbiology on them. I would consider this carefully because unless I'm mistaken there is no going back once you leave CP behind.
I have to disagree with these points, and I'm an FP who has been qualified as an expert in both Canada and the US. Few attorneys or judges have any idea that different training tracks even exist, and I've never heard of an FP being denied expert status based on being AP-only on either side of the border. I cannot imagine a defense attorney asking about it - if I were asked my reply would simply be, "I knew I wanted to pursue a career in forensic pathology and focused my training to reach that goal in a timely manner. I do not believe my training was compromised, nor did my ACGME approved training program, the ABP, or the two state/provincial medical boards who have granted me a license to practice medicine."

As to the boards, if there was any microbiology material on the exam, it wasn't much. As I said, sometimes I need to look something up, mainly to know if a weird bacteria that's present is a pathogen or probable contaminate, but I don't care about the techniques that make up a big chunk of CP microbiology rotations.
 
Well, things to consider for the OP. If you take the AP certificate and leave CP behind it may be too tedious to go back down that road.
 
I did AP/CP before FP, and have to look up things from time to time too. The board certification, per se, is pretty much irrelevant as far as actual practice goes. It has no bearing on qualification as an expert in FP, though I could see it possibly brought up as a comparator to the other side's expert in civil litigation -- which in my experience is a minor to non-existant component of the average FP's trial experience (with the exception of a few who just do consulting). But just because a thing might be brought up doesn't make it meaningful.

I do think there is value in some CP training for those who are going into FP, but that's different from saying one should become CP certified. The strange thing is that one of the reasons I wanted to go ahead and get CP was so I could better argue at some point down the road that anyone doing FP *should* also do CP -- because it is valuable by adding to one's foundation, and is relevant to common issues in FP such as toxicology. I guess the view of a young and impractical idealist. However the ABP combined with rising costs of medical education and very limited increases in FP salaries has made that a difficult stance to continue to support without looking like an impractical idiot. The ABP says working solely as a subspecialist has no value, and if you don't go back and study or practice general AP/CP then you shouldn't keep your boards at all (nevermind that some subspecialists don't have to do general AP or CP to begin with.. these aren't the droids you're looking for). And FP training can fill in those gaps or weak foundations in what are otherwise generally considered the realm of CP -- tox, micro, etc.

What you really have to decide is whether 1 extra year at a resident salary is worth the additional foundation in things you will STILL most likely have to look up when the rare case comes along that you want it, and whether you want to be forced to maintain it (it's own problem with requirements that can, and will, continue to change).
 
Practicing FP here. I concur with the other practicing FPs who have posted. It might further help to separate out CP training vs CP boaards

The only advantage of CP training is that it gives you a bit of added background in things like coag, chem, micro. On a scale of 1-10, I'd give that a 3.

The only advantage of CP boards is that it keeps open the prospect of changing careers to one that might want you to have that credential. There's also the very rare FP job that might also entail some hospital pathology practice, and they might want you to be CP boarded. Those jobs are zebras. And there are plenty of other jobs out there.

The only disadvantage of CP training is that it is an extra year of residency.

The disadvantages of CP boards are that it is an extra exam and you have to MOC it. The way they have made MOC now, once you are AP\CP you are AP\CP for life.

I did AP\CP residency, and when I was deciding about boards it was back in the day when the ABP said you could drop CP later on. It was a tough decision then, but I ultimately chose AP only for boards. No regrets. Now that the ABP has 180'd on the drop option, for me it'd be a no brainer to f-u CP boards. Having to MOC that would be tantamount to purgatory.
 
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