Forensic Psychology Post Doc. How important is ABPP

[psychpro]

Hello!!

I hope everyone is doing well. I am a doctoral student who is currently on internship this year. I have recently begun exploring options for Postdoc vs. Job. I am currently leaning towards a postdoc that will prepare me for a career as a Forensic psychologist. I do plan to get ABPP certification, but I am unsure of what path to take to get there. There are a handful of two year postdocs which meet requirements for ABPP certification upon completion. The other option would be to go to a postdoc that will provide training in Forensic Psychology but requires 5 years of experience before getting my ABPP if I am not mistaken.

I am 32-years-old, and have moved a lot over the course of my life, and quite frankly I am tired of moving. I matched at an internship site that is close to family, and would like to remain in the area if I could. I also would like to start establishing myself in a community not only as a professional but also as a human-being. So basically I would rather not move for postdoc but if I do move again for postdoc I want it to be a permanent move. However, there is only one post doc in my area that waives the 5-year ABPP requirement, but the scope is narrow in terms of the training experience. It does cover one of my areas of interest but there is a lot that I will not be trained to do if I train at that site. There are a few postdocs that don't offer the waiver but also have cool opportunities to engage in research and policy work, in addition to clinical training which really excites me. I feel like i'm at a bit of a stuck point because I am unclear of what the true ramifications of practicing with ABPP vs non ABPP are. I am curious about the differences in terms of employment opportunities, and earning potential. I am wondering if anyone has some perspective on a postdoc that will provide the waiver and result in speedier certification, or one that won't and would require additional years of training prior to certification? Would it be worth it to suck it up and move for another 2 years to a place I probably don't want to live in long-term thereby postponing my need to integrate into a community? Also how easy would it be to gain additional training experiences in other areas of forensic psychology if I opt to stay local and work at the site that seems wonderful but not as comprehensive as I would hope?

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[BuckeyeLove]

In terms of employment opportunities, not really sure how much getting boarded is going to do for you outside of getting a 5 to 10 % salary supplement if you are looking for a system to work in. Boarding in forensics generally is something that allows for greater upward mobility in terms of what a clinician can reasonably bill (however, this is still going to be based on your location/experience/reputation more than anything). At the end of the day, it comes down to a few things. Do you want easy access to all of the things that will allow you to be a solid forensic clinician (i.e., forensic seminars, didactics, case-law study, exposure/experience to a variety of psycholegal evaluations, etc.)? If so, then go the fellowship route. The ABFP fellowship route. It was hands down the best decision I ever made. That being said, two of my mentors never did a postdoc, largely because there weren't that many of them back in the day. They jumped right into work, both public and private sector, built up their brand, and now are doing amazingly well. They got boarded along the way (however, it was much more difficult for them in terms of the hurdles they had to jump through).

If you want to get boarded, as quickly as possible, complete an ABFP approved fellowship. Waiving the 5 years practical experience requirement is huge, and it made it super easy to gain candidacy. I'm also 32 and about to be boarded, and I wouldn't trade that fellowship year for the world. It was so incredibly valuable in terms of my knowledge and training in evaluation, but just as importantly, in the law. It also allowed me to network in ways that I didn't think was possible. The forensic world is VERY VERY small. You don't realize until you're in it.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

In terms of employment opportunities, not really sure how much getting boarded is going to do for you outside of getting a 5 to 10 % salary supplement if you are looking for a system to work in. Boarding in forensics generally is something that allows for greater upward mobility in terms of what a clinician can reasonably bill (however, this is still going to be based on your location/experience/reputation more than anything). At the end of the day, it comes down to a few things. Do you want easy access to all of the things that will allow you to be a solid forensic clinician (i.e., forensic seminars, didactics, case-law study, exposure/experience to a variety of psycholegal evaluations, etc.)? If so, than go the fellowship route. The ABFP fellowship route. It was hands down the best decision I ever made. That being said, two of my mentors never did a postdoc, largely because there weren't that many of them back in the day. They jumped right into work, both public and private sector, built up their brand, and now are doing amazingly well. They got boarded along the way (however, it was much more difficult for them in terms of the hurdles they had to jump through).

If you want to get boarded, as quickly as possible, complete an ABFP approved fellowship. Waiving the 5 years practical experience requirement is huge, and it made it super easy to gain candidacy. I'm also 32 and about to be boarded, and I wouldn't trade that fellowship year for the world. It was so incredibly valuable in terms of my knowledge and training in evaluation, but just as importantly, in the law. It also allowed me to network in ways that I didn't think was possible. The forensic world is VERY VERY small. You don't realize until you're in it.

I really wish I could have taken the fellowship path but unfortunately, due to location restrictions, I could not. I was trying to find out what constitutes "forensic experience" in regards to the 1000 hours requirement. It seemed like it was primarily evaluation and/or consulting and not treatment. Is that correct? Also, does the supervising psychologist have to be board certified as well?

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[boomshakalaka]

There are actually quite a bit more than a handful of sites that have been accepted for the experience waiver. The vast majority are also one-year post-docs. Actually, I'm not really aware of any of them being two-year post-docs.

Something else to consider. As buckeye mentioned, the forensic world is very, very small and formal forensic fellowships are very competitive. You might not have the option to stay local and you need to cast a wide net if you are truly committed to completing a formal fellowship. It is also very likely that you're going to be moving again after fellowship. While moving is a pain, the upside is that you'll leave fellowship a much more competitive job applicant, will likely have dedicated time/resources for EPPP and licensure study, and 5 years later, you won't have the hassle of trying to prove that your informal post-doc experience/job experience was commensurate with a formal fellowship. Here is the list of sites that meet the experience waiver.

https://www.abpp.org/BlankSite/medi...-for-ABFP-Experience-Waiver-rev-8-30-2018.pdf

 

[CA_PsyD_FL_LMHC]

Here is the list of sites that meet the experience waiver.

https://www.abpp.org/BlankSite/medi...-for-ABFP-Experience-Waiver-rev-8-30-2018.pdf

This was really helpful. Thank you.

 

[PsyDr]

Differing opinion:

Boarding in forensics is sort of strange. Attorneys will always ask. And psychologists will make a much bigger deal about boarding than anyone else. It will always be better to have the boarding. Buuuut....

1) Boarding, especially in forensics, is a relatively new thing. There are plenty of old guys in the game who didn't have fellowships or boards because they didn't exist. Some are EXTREMELY big names. Even in psychiatry. Attorneys and judges know this and will not push too hard, lest some they invalidate previous rulings. After you have been a known factor for long enough, challenging your expertise is considered a sorta hail mary unless they anticipate that you are testifying about something strange. If you have testified a dozen times in front of a judge, it is unlikely that he will take kindly on motions to exclude your expertise without excellent cause.

2) If you look at the ABFP materials, you'll see that forensic psychology is defined as ANY practice in psychology where the law is involved. There is no way you can have comprehensive training in something that broad. And the board knows this. IMO/IME, they are one of the nicest, most reasonable groups to deal with.

3) I would argue that the real money in forensics is in private practice. There are salaried positions that pay well, especially in corrections. But the super salary positions do not care about ABPP. They are offering large salaries because the positions suck.

Caveat: I got lucky in a lot of this.

 

[boomshakalaka]

Differing opinion:

Boarding in forensics is sort of strange. Attorneys will always ask. And psychologists will make a much bigger deal about boarding than anyone else. It will always be better to have the boarding. Buuuut....

1) Boarding, especially in forensics, is a relatively new thing. There are plenty of old guys in the game who didn't have fellowships or boards because they didn't exist. Some are EXTREMELY big names. Even in psychiatry. Attorneys and judges know this and will not push too hard, lest some they invalidate previous rulings. After you have been a known factor for long enough, challenging your expertise is considered a sorta hail mary unless they anticipate that you are testifying about something strange. If you have testified a dozen times in front of a judge, it is unlikely that he will take kindly on motions to exclude your expertise without excellent cause.

2) If you look at the ABFP materials, you'll see that forensic psychology is defined as ANY practice in psychology where the law is involved. There is no way you can have comprehensive training in something that broad. And the board knows this. IMO/IME, they are one of the nicest, most reasonable groups to deal with.

3) I would argue that the real money in forensics is in private practice. There are salaried positions that pay well, especially in corrections. But the super salary positions do not care about ABPP. They are offering large salaries because the positions suck.

Caveat: I got lucky in a lot of this.

Great points! You are totally right about the real money being in private work, especially if you can carve out a niche. PSYDR, something I’ve seen you mention (I’m paraphrasing) is the importance of analyzing the market, finding a gap, and filling that niche. I’m early career, but this is ringing so true right now. Leaving fellowship, I felt the need to be an absolute expert in ALL things forensic, but it’s simply not possible nor does it make good business sense.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Leaving fellowship, I felt the need to be an absolute expert in ALL things forensic, but it’s simply not possible nor does it make good business sense.

Early career folks should really have 1yr, 3yr, and 5+ yr plans. Obviously things change, but it helps with focusing on where you want to go and think more about the steps to get there.

Most specialists seem to carve out niches, which I strongly suggest to most clinicians starting out. You don’t want to *only* work in a really niche area, but narrowing your focus can be beneficial for everything from staying up on the latest research to developing a clearer professional reputation.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

Differing opinion:

Boarding in forensics is sort of strange. Attorneys will always ask. And psychologists will make a much bigger deal about boarding than anyone else. It will always be better to have the boarding. Buuuut....

1) Boarding, especially in forensics, is a relatively new thing. There are plenty of old guys in the game who didn't have fellowships or boards because they didn't exist. Some are EXTREMELY big names. Even in psychiatry. Attorneys and judges know this and will not push too hard, lest some they invalidate previous rulings. After you have been a known factor for long enough, challenging your expertise is considered a sorta hail mary unless they anticipate that you are testifying about something strange. If you have testified a dozen times in front of a judge, it is unlikely that he will take kindly on motions to exclude your expertise without excellent cause.

2) If you look at the ABFP materials, you'll see that forensic psychology is defined as ANY practice in psychology where the law is involved. There is no way you can have comprehensive training in something that broad. And the board knows this. IMO/IME, they are one of the nicest, most reasonable groups to deal with.

3) I would argue that the real money in forensics is in private practice. There are salaried positions that pay well, especially in corrections. But the super salary positions do not care about ABPP. They are offering large salaries because the positions suck.

Caveat: I got lucky in a lot of this.

I was actually looking into your number 2 point and I found it very confusing. What is the best way to determine if some of the work I am doing counts as "direct experience in forensic psychology?"

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[LadyHalcyon]

This is the most clarity I have found:

One should note that this definition does not include within the specialty of Forensic Psychology all psychologists who apply psychology to law or legal systems. It refers to “professional practice” intended to offer expertise to “the judicial system.” The key factors in the specialty, therefore, are the psychologist’s general practice as a person who offers professional expertise to a court of law. By this definition, many psychologists might testify in courts occasionally on clinical matters regarding their patients, or might perform research about which they inform courts from time to time, yet would not be considered to be engaging in the general practice of forensic psychology requiring forensic specialization.


Moreover, the definition’s emphasis on the practice of providing information to courts does not include psychologists who primarily perform treatment duties in other parts of the legal system (e.g., jails), or psychologists whose primary activity is psychological research on legal issues (e.g., the relation of mental illness to criminal behavior), unless these psychologists also routinely offer information to courts in the course of their normal practice. (For a detailed discussion of the definition of the practice of forensic psychology, see: Packer & Grisso, Specialty Competencies in Forensic Psychology, Oxford University Press, 2011, p. 3-8.)

 

[psychpro]

Thank you so much to all who took time to share their experiences with me. This has all been really helpful. I like the idea of developing a niche, and in fact if I was to do so the local option with ABPP waiver provides training in a niche I would like to develop. I can always get trained to do other kinds of evaluations, and add them on as I advance through my career. I need to remember to have goals and plans, but also to be open and flexible to the options that are available to me. It does certainly seem like the field is moving in the direction of ABPP so I figure it will be helpful to adapt to that trend early on rather than trying to do so later. I definitely know that I like formal academic training, and I chose an internship site that allows for that, so it will be nice to have a postdoc that also provides that option which many of the ABPP waiver sites do.

 

[PsyDr]

@Magick91683

They are very differing in the definition of the practice of forensic psychology to the specialty of forensic psychology. Good luck in getting them to offer a cohesive opinion. I have a powerpoint somewhere around here on the definition.

@Therapist4Chnge

Great points. I'd modify that to say that ECPs should find a PROFITABLE niche. Met too many people with great niches in populations with no money.

 

[psychpro]

@PSYDR If you have the powerpoint please share. I would love to see it.

 

[LadyHalcyon]

@PSYDR If you have the powerpoint please share. I would love to see it.

Same!!

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[Sparkledgp]

@Magick91683

They are very differing in the definition of the practice of forensic psychology to the specialty of forensic psychology. Good luck in getting them to offer a cohesive opinion. I have a powerpoint somewhere around here on the definition.

@Therapist4Chnge

Great points. I'd modify that to say that ECPs should find a PROFITABLE niche. Met too many people with great niches in populations with no money.

What are the more profitable niches?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

@Magick91683

They are very differing in the definition of the practice of forensic psychology to the specialty of forensic psychology. Good luck in getting them to offer a cohesive opinion. I have a powerpoint somewhere around here on the definition.

@Therapist4Chnge

Great points. I'd modify that to say that ECPs should find a PROFITABLE niche. Met too many people with great niches in populations with no money.

Agreed, and as one case in point: criminal assessment work (e.g., competence to stand trial) can be very interesting, but in my area, it generally pays worse than insurance-based clinical work. Same for Social Security Disability evals. Conversely, there are other states/locales where one or both be quite profitable.

On the flip side, civil work (e.g., personal injury) can often pay well. But typically, the more money involved, the more contentious the work, and the more you need to be "on your game."

On a personal note, I don't care how well it pays, I will likely never touch child custody.

 

[Sparkledgp]

Thank you. I am in the middle of my peds neuropsych post-doc and was curious about what, forensic work would be suited to a peds background. Ive repeatedly heard that child custody evals are something people opt not to do. It must be quite stressful? Sounds like personal injury would be a middle ground (pays well, but less contentious than child custody?)

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you. I am in the middle of my peds neuropsych post-doc and was curious about what, forensic work would be suited to a peds background. Ive repeatedly heard that child custody evals are something people opt not to do. It must be quite stressful? Sounds like personal injury would be a middle ground (pays well, but less contentious than child custody?)

Contentious in a different way, but far less likely to lead to multiple board complaints

 

[PsyDr]

Thank you. I am in the middle of my peds neuropsych post-doc and was curious about what, forensic work would be suited to a peds background. Ive repeatedly heard that child custody evals are something people opt not to do. It must be quite stressful? Sounds like personal injury would be a middle ground (pays well, but less contentious than child custody?)

1) Find any wild mammal that has just given birth. Take the young away from the mother. See how aggressive the animal gets. That is what child custody is dealing with. When you get involved in that, you become a *wealthy* target of that anger.

2) You should not start in personal injury. Personal injury is like the NBA, or NFL of forensics. No one sues someone for $10k. They sue someone for $20MM. With that kind of money at play, you're dealing with extremely aggressive attorneys, and very seasoned experts that are talking smack about you. You'd need a fair amount of experience in practice and courts, before you get involved in this.

 

[Sparkledgp]

thank you both- Good food for thought and I totally love the analogies!