Forensics

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mill_z

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I recently became interested in forensics and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the feild. I love anatomy so doing autopsies would be something of interest for me. What resisdency would one want to go into if they were interested in forensics or would like to perform autopsies? How competive is the field? How long is the resisdency? What is the compensation like?

Thanks
 
Dude, check out the pathology forum, as forensics is a subspecialty of pathology.
 
Also, I've heard great things about the program at the Universoty of Tennessee - Knoxville.
 
mill_z said:
I recently became interested in forensics and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the feild. I love anatomy so doing autopsies would be something of interest for me. What resisdency would one want to go into if they were interested in forensics or would like to perform autopsies? How competive is the field? How long is the resisdency? What is the compensation like?

Thanks

Now that I have some more time, allow me to elaborate. I'm starting pathology residency this year, and although I have no current desire to pursue forensic pathology, it was the thing that drew me into the field initially.

1. Residency: pathology (3-4 years depending on AP or CP only vs AP/CP)
2. Forensic training: 1 year fellowship after pathology residency
3. Competitiveness: historically virtually nil, although pathology got more competitive this year. Landing a forensic fellowship generally isn't too difficult, although it's such a small field that individual programs might be hard to get into in any given year.
4. Compensation: awful. Some positions will start in the 70-80K/year range, and max out in the low-mid 100's after years on the job and maximum promotions. The money to be had is in the professional witness circuit, although you have to get a lot of experience under your belt before you can make serious greenbacks doing this.

As far as I know, two of the best programs in the country for forensics are the University of New Mexico and my institution, the Medical College of Virginia (a.k.a. Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine).
 
Also bear in mind, where you do your residency is not going to have a huge bearing on any forensics career - autopsy is basically only about 4 months of your 4 years of training, and msot of this is hospital autopsy. So, you can do electives in forensics, but most people will do this at an outside institution or state medical examiners like Cook County in Chicago or the city of Baltimore.

Residency programs are highly variable in the amount of forensics you see - usually you don't do a ton except observe or do menial tasks unless you do an elective. Many programs also have the opportunity to moonlight as a medical examiner's investigator (the person that medicine/surgical folks call when a case is reportable, as in an OR death or an accidental death).
 
if you are interested, there are fast tracks into forensics. you do 2 of AP (anatomic path) +1 forensics. i disagree with the previous posters on compensation. you can make over 100K as a fellow! (search Freida under Newark, NJ)

The traditional coroner system is going down the toilet. A lot of people in gov't are deciding that an MD should be the ME (medical examiner). the problem with coroners that have been doing autopsies is that they have no medical backround; this becomes a problem in court.

are they one of the current lowest paid specialties in path? sure. but keep in mind that path is super lucrative (look in the sept. 03' issue of JAMA; lifestyle influencing med students specialty choice; i think only derm and ortho beats them hour for hour.) going into forensics is smart; it's like nanotech stock. sure it's low, but the increase is inevitable.

Plus you get to ream out lawyers in court! I met a peds-foresics shaken baby syndrome expert, he makes $500/hr in court. douche-bag lawyers try to speak medicine; then he makes mince-meat out of them. awesome!
 
backontop said:
i disagree with the previous posters on compensation. you can make over 100K as a fellow! (search Freida under Newark, NJ)

You can do a lot of things, including staring out at Newark, until you find yourself surrounded by empty bottles of Mickey's, with a .45 pressed against your temporal bone.
 
yeah, but they write the best stuff on those mickey's bottle caps.
 
IMHO,

Forensics has NOTHING nothing to do with Pathology. There is far more a connection between Radiology and Path than Path and Forensics.

Forensics should be its own 2-3 year residency and the requirement to do an entire Path residency should be eliminated. Its an absurd waste of time for a job that pays shiat.

CRAP, just the thought of someone having to rotate through fooking blood bank (although I realize you dont have to be boarded in CP) to get to the FP fellowship pisses me off and is a great indicator the people at the ABP are CLUELESS.
 
I sort of agree that forensics might be better suited to a different residency program. I mean, in our program we are finished with autopsy after year 1. So therefore, someone going into forensics has to "suffer" through 2 years of surg path and cyto (that's if they do AP only) with perhaps an occasional FP elective and some moonlighting stuff thrown in. It is important to know basic surg path to do forensics, but the marginal utility is not that great.

I also can't understand how FP can be done with AP only anyway. Why not do it with CP only (plus autopsy, obviously)? Toxicology issues are far more important than being able to tell what type of retroperitoneal sarcoma or leukemia the patient has.
 
Respected collegues

I would just like to give some comment on that special residency for forensic pathology from my centreal european perspective.

Troughout the history had never had anything like coroner system that would lead to a situation where lay pepople could do autopsies for forensic purpouses.
Instead forensic pathology had been an integral part of hospital pathologists (sometimes they were refered as prosectors). If a case had occured on the country side pathologist took a bike and performed autopsy in funeral home.

But enough for history. Soon (but chiefly after work war 2) forensic pathology had taken separate path. University based institutes of forensic medicine have emerged with their own residency programs.

Regardint the residency programs are of course different in details across countries, but main traits are common. The residency lasts on average 5 years (same as "ordinary" pathology). During this time your should do certain number of cases together with expert opinion. Second major part is anatomical pathology rotation on average for a year... Third part is the amount of clinical forensic medicine which it the most variable among countries.

There is howver one minority of people who had done both specialities, some of they are realy outstanding.I believe thet for being good forensic pathologist needs sound knowledge of pathology including surgical. From my (although limited experience so far) at least you should excell in brain, heart
and non tumor lung pathology. Additional, fetal (and neonatal) comes in hand.
All other field of pathology are more rare but do occur on regular basis.

Majority of forensic specialists do not seem to deal with histology but immunohistochemisty, in situ hibridization and othe molecular techniques are gradually becoming daily routine. At least in europe and japan where cases from acute in hospital-deaths are done by forensic pathologists.

After all the idea af having pathology residency as enrty level to forensic is not that inaproprate as it seems. Thrue it has some specifics must be trained aditionally. On the other hand if your have separate forensic residency it should last from 4 to 5 years and also provide thorough and advenced training in aforementioned areas.
 
Thank you Adolf - I was actually talking about this with a couple of other residents today and we did agree that while a lot of path residency is somewhat of overkill for people going straight into forensics, you do need quite a bit of it. Perhaps the end result will be that selected programs will be able to provide a "forensics track" where some residents can focus more heavily on autopsy and deemphasize things like dermpath, cyto, and breast pathology which have less relevance in the world of forensics.
 
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