PhD/PsyD Formal postdoc vs. informal vs. staff post-grad?

[Th345]

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Hey everyone, clinical psychology PhD on internship here. I plan to move to Florida after finishing up internship and want to get licensed in the state. I know FL requires 2,000 postdoc hours, which from what I understand need to be acquired while under a provisional licensure that only lasts for two years. I've had excellent clinical training and learn most by practicing, much more than sitting through didactics and seminars, so my goal is really just to get those hours.


I am deciding between the formal clinical postdoc positions I have been offered in FL and potentially seeking out to create/negotiate an informal postdoc position at other clinics/hospitals. What are some of the things I should consider when deciding between these? Also, I have heard confusing information about "staff" positions after graduation...I am confused because if I am not licensed yet how in the world could I even apply to staff positions in FL?


Thanks everyone!

 

[quickpsych]

You may want to reach out to the licensing board in Florida, see if they can provide you specifics of the 2,000 hours requirements. I imagine they have requirements of min/max hours per week, how little or long the time is you can accrue them, supervision requirements, and in some states may require specific break downs of hours (i.e. may require X hours are face to face with patients but count up to X hours a week/month of non-direct time).

As more and more states are no longer requiring formal post docs, requirements may vary or change. However if a state requires a post doc (and does not list any alternatives (i.e. some states say will count pre-internship and internship hours now, but others will not), personally If I was you I would seek the path of a formal post doc first to ensure you get what you need.

Some organizations, companies, settings will just lump pre-licensed supervisees in as "staff" and in some cases people get hired as staff and get the supervision while working. Some here will disagree with this route because it's very easy to take advantage of someone without a license but classified as staff, and you don't want to get in a situation where your required hours and supervision are taking a backseat to an employer just giving you work. But again, see above and get the specifics from the board.

 

[Sanman]

Hey everyone, clinical psychology PhD on internship here. I plan to move to Florida after finishing up internship and want to get licensed in the state. I know FL requires 2,000 postdoc hours, which from what I understand need to be acquired while under a provisional licensure that only lasts for two years. I've had excellent clinical training and learn most by practicing, much more than sitting through didactics and seminars, so my goal is really just to get those hours.


I am deciding between the formal clinical postdoc positions I have been offered in FL and potentially seeking out to create/negotiate an informal postdoc position at other clinics/hospitals. What are some of the things I should consider when deciding between these? Also, I have heard confusing information about "staff" positions after graduation...I am confused because if I am not licensed yet how in the world could I even apply to staff positions in FL?


Thanks everyone!

A formal post-doc is the easy button as far as getting licensed and providing proof down the line if you ever want to get licensed in another state. It can also help with ABPP board certification if you are interested in that.

Staff jobs for unlicensed clinicians are usually only a few places that are not billing insurance or Medicare for services (the VA, a cmhc, maybe a non-profit, some substance abuse treatment centers, etc.). You can do this and the pay may be higher than a formal post-doc. However, I would check that they have appropriate supervision available.

You can attempt to get hours at a cash private practice, but I do not recommend that with a time limit on how long it takes to get your hours.

 

[PsyDuck90]

If you look at the Florida BOP website, the requirements are 2000 postdoc hours, 900 of which need to be related to direct client care, and you’re required to get 2 hours of individual supervision per week (1 of those 2 being face to face). All these hours should be accrued either via 20 hours per week across 2 years (104 weeks) or 40 hours a week across 1 year (52 weeks).

Which path you choose is really up to you and your risk tolerance. As said above, a formal postdoc is an easy button. The program is likely already aligned with the state licensure requirements, and, in the event you want to move and get licensed elsewhere, if it’s an established setting (such as a VA), there will likely always be a training director there who could verify your hours, even if no one who you directly trained under is there anymore. With an informal set-up, there is less of a certainty.

 

[BendDontBreak]

I attended a postdoctoral panel at ABCT and would be happy to share the presentation slides with you, which outline the pros (mostly pros, just FYI) and cons of pursuing a formal postdoc. If you're interested, please DM me and I'll send them your way!

Also, if you are not attracted to a super structured program (e.g., in an academic medical center), you could pursue a postdoc in a group private practice that is recruiting postdocs and has a track record of successfully supporting postdocs in pursuing licensure.

 

[pinkbromeliad]

Hey everyone, clinical psychology PhD on internship here. I plan to move to Florida after finishing up internship and want to get licensed in the state. I know FL requires 2,000 postdoc hours, which from what I understand need to be acquired while under a provisional licensure that only lasts for two years. I've had excellent clinical training and learn most by practicing, much more than sitting through didactics and seminars, so my goal is really just to get those hours.


I am deciding between the formal clinical postdoc positions I have been offered in FL and potentially seeking out to create/negotiate an informal postdoc position at other clinics/hospitals. What are some of the things I should consider when deciding between these? Also, I have heard confusing information about "staff" positions after graduation...I am confused because if I am not licensed yet how in the world could I even apply to staff positions in FL?


Thanks everyone!

I did an informal post doc, specifically in private practice. I would caution against it, unless you have prior experience with the practice and know exactly what you’re getting into in terms of caseload, pay, and professionalism. Happy to share more over DM if you’re considering any private practice opportunities and it’d be helpful.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I did an informal post doc, specifically in private practice. I would caution against it, unless you have prior experience with the practice and know exactly what you’re getting into in terms of caseload, pay, and professionalism. Happy to share more over DM if you’re considering any private practice opportunities and it’d be helpful.

This is a good point. One of the benefits of a formal postdoc is that you have a formal grievance procedure. This isn't often, or even usually, the case outside of that setting, and particularly in private practice.

 

[pinkbromeliad]

This is a good point. One of the benefits of a formal postdoc is that you have a formal grievance procedure. This isn't often, or even usually, the case outside of that setting, and particularly in private practice.

100%. Formal grievance, an HR department, steady salary in lieu of struggling with variability under a fee split. Not just one supervisor or practice owner standing between you and your license.

I'm also not certain of what OP's definition of formal is (i.e., the hospital I work at now has an accredited internship program, but the post doc is not accredited). We still have a post-doc position that is associated with our training program, and there are lots of guardrails that would likely protect you from the possible concerns associated with a truly informal post doc in private practice, but it's not accredited. I think positions like these are relatively safe IMO.

 

[R. Matey]

This is a good point. One of the benefits of a formal postdoc is that you have a formal grievance procedure. This isn't often, or even usually, the case outside of that setting, and particularly in private practice.

Important to also mention that formal, structured postdocs in an larger organization (vs. those in PP) typically have good didactic opportunities for trainees.

 

[Sanman]

Important to also mention that formal, structured postdocs in an larger organization (vs. those in PP) typically have good didactic opportunities for trainees.

Unless it is a diversity didactic and that post-doc is in the VA.

I am partially being salty, but I am also somewhat concerned about the stability of VA post-doc opportunities at this moment in time. I feel that it has really dropped what used to be some of the best opportunities down a rung for the next few years at minimum.

 

[PsychPsychBaby]

I was considering a formal postdoc, informal postdoc, or unlicensed psychologist position and decided to go the formal route. When I was laying out what my goals for postdoc were and what I wanted the year to look like, the formal postdoc I was considering seemed to have the best opportunities for training, learning, and specializing that I thought would ultimately help me the most in my career. Also, everyone at the interview was so nice and I was also really looking for an opportunity to work with people I genuinely was inspired to be around.

The informal postdoc I was offered was at a private practice, and comments like the ones above really helped me decide against this. I also thought about my goals for postdoc and felt that the private practice where I was offered a postdoc wouldn't help me reach those goals nearly as well as the formal postdoc I was offered.

I considered applying to an unlicensed psychologist position, but because the site also had formal postdocs so I felt like there would be some protection in that experience because they have the formal postdoc route set up/know what that entails.

When I was looking into what would be the best option, many people wanted to go the informal postdoc/unlicensed psychologist route because it pays more. I think it's important to know your goals for postdoc and what you want to get out of it - if training is your priority, then maybe a formal postdoc would be a better fit (although I'm sure some informal ones/unlicensed positions still offer great training, and some formal postdocs maybe don't have great training, so definitely feel it out), and if financial stability is a main priority then maybe going the informal or unlicensed route would be best. Of course, it's not that simple, but for me and the opportunities I was offered that was kind of what it came down to.