Found out about old nondisclosed Institutional Action, but have been admitted already

[noodledoodle5000]

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Hi, guys. I need your predictions on something. I've recently been admitted to a medical school. On my AMCAS I checked that I haven't been the recipient of IA as my interpretation at the time until recently was that IA was anything related to an Honor Code Violation (e.g. academic). Upon recently checking up with my undergrad's disciplinary office, I've found that I had 3 separate housing incidents on my conduct record, 2 of which were trivial (didn't clean my dorm room properly before moving out) and 1 being in presence of room with alcohol as an underage student. These 3 incidents don't show up on my transcript.

Now, I'm certainly going to disclose these findings to my matriculating school and make this lapse in judgement and ordeal as transparent as possible to the medical school. No doubt about that.

My question to you all is how serious will the repercussions be? I've ultimately accepted the fact that the school might rescind the acceptance offer. What I can't really swallow is me being disbarred from any medical schools in the future were I apply again.

 

[eteshoe]

Those "violations" seem pretty benign to me but take my words with a grain of salt since I'm not part of the administration at your school.

 

[Goro]

Just tell the Admissions dean. You might have a chat with him/her or the Dean proper, but this is just due diligence on their part.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I wouldn't bother disclosing personally. But you could, nothing wrong with that. I'd be shocked if anything came of it.

 

[noodledoodle5000]

Just tell the Admissions dean. You might have a chat with him/her or the Dean proper, but this is just due diligence on their part.

Goro, what do you think are the chances of getting my admission revoked? I've ordered a conduct report and am planning on going to the dean of admissions probably during orientation if not earlier.

 

[LizzyM]

Did you read the AMCAS website?
https://students-residents.aamc.org...cle/sections-1-3-your-background-information/
It states, "

• Institutional Action: Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

Did you read the instruction manual? It states,

Institutional Action You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action by any college or medical school for unacceptable academic performance or conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted or expunged from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition. If you answer Yes, you must briefly explain each instance, along with the date(s) of occurrence (MM/YYYY). Your response may be up to 1,325 characters or approximately one-quarter of a page in length. Failure to provide accurate information in answering this question or, if applicable, in completing the form provided by the school, will result in an investigation. Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials. If you become the subject of an institutional action after certifying and submitting the AMCAS application, you must inform your designated medical school(s) within 10 business days of the date of the occurrence.

How did you mistakenly believe that IAs were only "honor violations"? I've seen my school go easy on applicants who had IAs for what you did but I am not sure how they will react to someone who falsified their application to medical school. I'm really sorry that you just joined SDN today to ask this question. If you had been around here a year ago when you were preparing your application you would have had better information and might have made better choices.

 

[235009]

I'm not sure I see what the action the institution took against you was in this case. If it's just a notation on your record or you got a warning then that doesn't count. What was the punishment?


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[TBV]

I'd be inclined to play dumb but idk big gamble. Also would feel dumb if I got the boot halfway through for it though.

 

[Med Ed]

I wouldn't bother disclosing personally. But you could, nothing wrong with that. I'd be shocked if anything came of it.

This why I have learned to hate AMCAS's approach to IA's. Based on conversations I have had with people who have been in the biz a long time, back in the day reportable IA's were intended to be serious offenses, the type that could get you suspended for 1+ semesters or expelled. Now you have to disclose the noise violation you got during September of your freshman year. It seems the pendulum has swung too far, IMHO.

 

[songl4a]

.

 

[Goro]

The issue is that the OP didn't follow very simple instructions.

Just to be clear, the issue is that he didn't disclose his alcohol violation right? And this needs to be disclosed because it shows up on his transcript/school records? Why the hell would a school care if he didn't clean his room adequately during check-out, and why would the school put it on his record? Did this need to be disclosed? What a frustrating standard.

 

[LizzyM]

This why I have learned to hate AMCAS's approach to IA's. Based on conversations I have had with people who have been in the biz a long time, back in the day reportable IA's were intended to be serious offenses, the type that could get you suspended for 1+ semesters or expelled. Now you have to disclose the noise violation you got during September of your freshman year. It seems the pendulum has swung too far, IMHO.

The applicant must disclose. Schools may choose to determine that the IA is no big deal and that the record would not preclude the applicant from being a member of our community. I could have very clearly seen someone written up for "in the same room with booze while underage" being interviewed and admitted. No big deal. What becomes a big deal is deciding that "forgetting" about the IA is the right approach and then getting worried about it and coming clean after admission.

 

[Med Ed]

The applicant must disclose. Schools may choose to determine that the IA is no big deal and that the record would not preclude the applicant from being a member of our community. I could have very clearly seen someone written up for "in the same room with booze while underage" being interviewed and admitted. No big deal. What becomes a big deal is deciding that "forgetting" about the IA is the right approach and then getting worried about it and coming clean after admission.

I get that, but forcing every applicant to disclose minor infractions that only Loma Linda and LUCOM would care about seems like a pointless waste of everyone's time.

 

[songl4a]

.

 

[Pastamahn]

Hi, guys. I need your predictions on something. I've recently been admitted to a medical school. On my AMCAS I checked that I haven't been the recipient of IA as my interpretation at the time until recently was that IA was anything related to an Honor Code Violation (e.g. academic). Upon recently checking up with my undergrad's disciplinary office, I've found that I had 3 separate housing incidents on my conduct record, 2 of which were trivial (didn't clean my dorm room properly before moving out) and 1 being in presence of room with alcohol as an underage student. These 3 incidents don't show up on my transcript.

Now, I'm certainly going to disclose these findings to my matriculating school and make this lapse in judgement and ordeal as transparent as possible to the medical school. No doubt about that.

My question to you all is how serious will the repercussions be? I've ultimately accepted the fact that the school might rescind the acceptance offer. What I can't really swallow is me being disbarred from any medical schools in the future were I apply again.

Just to clarify, did you not know about these until recently?

 

[CloverBale]

That's what I'm curious about. What if you really, genuinely didn't know you got an IA? Especially if it is for silly dorm-stuff situations. Or, better yet, you're not a neurotic premed who frequents this site to even know what an IA's is? I searched my school's website long and hard and the words "institutional action" + "my school" did not show up anywhere. In fact, my school finds that conduct violations are completely confidential and would require a release form from other institutions to report that information.

 

[235009]

Once again: you are not being asked to report every time you got in trouble...only those times where what you did resulted in the INSTITUTION taking ACTION against (punishing) you. If leaving the dorm dirty resulted in you getting kicked out of housing then that counts. Were you put on probation for the alcohol violation? I'm guessing you weren't punished for any of these things (thus no institutional action and nothing to report) given the fact that they slipped your mind.


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[PossibleDOC?]

The violations are benign but I spoke with an admissions dean one time to have my app reviewed, I entered one grade wrong (or so he thought I retook the class and he was confused when I showed him he was ok with it) and he gave me a look like I don't know how to do simple math and what was wrong with me. If you failed to report this correctly especially if there are INSTRUCTIONS on how to do it, they may question if you can follow simple procedures. This is an example of how you need to look at things much closer. Either way if people like Goro and the other admissions committee members don't feel it will result in a rescinded acceptance than you should do as they say and report it. Remember to read and try to investigate everything before you commit to a firm answer. Good Luck

 

[songl4a]

.

 

[235009]

What about paying fees for not cleaning his room adequately, or paying a dorm fee shared by all residents because a common area utility was destroyetd, etc.,

Does a fine count as IA?

No. It's a fine. You pay it and move on. Would you report a fine for not returning a library book on time?

Either way if people like Goro and the other admissions committee members don't feel it will result in a rescinded acceptance than you should do as they say and report it.

Doesn't mean OP should report this. Goro is wrong.


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[PossibleDOC?]

I don't know if I'd want a problem 3 yrs down the road if they found out. Benign yes, if they're having a bad day and decide to take action, good bye med school (for not reporting not the IAs not necessarily the actual actions done). I like sure things and by laying all cards on the table theres nothing to hide and there is no worries for future problems but thats just my conservative view on things.

 

[LizzyM]

If you have an institutional record, it will be written down somewhere. Your educational records cannot be released without your permission and you have a right to see your records unless you waive that right (which you do when you ask for a committee letter or a LOR from an instructor-- but you are waiving only the right to see the letter, not the rest of the file). So, to be on the safe side, you ask to see your university/college record. If something is listed there, or was listed there at one time (even if it was erased when you graduated), you are obligated by AMCAS to include it in your application. It doesn't always mean GAME OVER, but it is far easier to enforce the rule by saying "all IAs must be reported" than to let the applicant decide whether or not the IA is so minor as to be unreportable.

I strongly suspect that the OP has not been admitted to medical school but is anticipating being in the position he's written about a year from now and wondering how that scenario might play out.

 

[noodledoodle5000]

Hello, first of all thanks for the inputs everyone. I'd like to clarify few things. I have another account that I made since last spring to prepare for the 2015-2016 application cycle. I have made a separate account for this inquiry.

I have been accepted into a medical school, I assure you. The alcohol incident was during my sophomore year and the sanction was that I was given a written warning and . had to write a page essay on the harmful effects of alcohol. Also, most likely a probation for a semester (the link to the written warning expired). Since I was in a dorm room when this transpired, it was handled by housing rather than the university itself. The big mistake here was not recollecting this minor incident when I was doing my application last summer. I had just forgotten about it b/c no big sanctions was handed and I had brushed it off. I found out when I was helping one of my friends answer the question of what exactly constitutes an IA and he told me that he was going to ask the school's (same as mine) disciplinary office for a conduct record. Out of whim, I decided to check my conduct record and found out I had 3 housing incidents.

I understand it was a huge lapse in judgement and failure to follow directions on my part. I get that. I should have done my due diligence, but from med students that I asked and based on my own interpretations, I presumed IA meant huge honor code violations. I have sent official transcripts to myself before and it didn't say anything about disciplinary sanctions or honor code violations. My school doesn't have a committee or otherwise, I'd have been aware of this before I even applied.

So all in all, I understand the easier choice is not disclosing this information and the chances are fairly slim that the 3 incidents will see light of day. However, it's still a non-zero chance and I don't think I could ever forgive myself if I were kicked out of medical school because of my inactions. I've ordered a conduct record history and once I have that, I plan on going to the dean of admissions to have a face to face talk during orientation. I hope this clarified things for everyone and once again, thanks for the inputs. I had assumed the worst and you all have reassured me that that most likely won't be the case if I come completely clean with the best intentions.

 

[noodledoodle5000]

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app[/QUOTE]

Just to be clear, the issue is that he didn't disclose his alcohol violation right? And this needs to be disclosed because it shows up on his transcript/school records? Why the hell would a school care if he didn't clean his room adequately during check-out, and why would the school put it on his record? Did this need to be disclosed? What a frustrating standard.

Yea I think this is the main issue. If I had found out about just the 2 housing incidents, I wouldn't really report this to my matriculating school. However, I did get sanctioned for the alcohol stated above (written warning, page essay). I went back to check the written email I received and the link was expired, but I do believe I was on alcohol probation for a semester which puts a wrinkle in this whole situation. Once again, this whole incident slipped my mind and I haven't gotten in trouble since then through the entire duration of my undergrad career. I understand this really can't be used as an excuse, but that I made a mistake and that by coming clean and being transparent can afford me some leniency.

 

[Med Ed]

I've ordered a conduct record history and once I have that, I plan on going to the dean of admissions to have a face to face talk during orientation.

Don't wait until orientation, that will only look shadier. Sit down with the dean of admissions ASAP and explain the situation. Tell him/her that you may have made a mistake but want to come clean and keep everything above board. On the one hand it's hard to believe that three conduct violations "slipped your mind." On the other hand, they are so minor that no reasonable person would have bothered to deliberately hide them. It's not like you were stalking an ex or hacked into the mainframe to change your grades. The best way to earn the benefit of the doubt is to expose the situation as rapidly and thoroughly as possible.

 

[noodledoodle5000]

Don't wait until orientation, that will only look shadier. Sit down with the dean of admissions ASAP and explain the situation. Tell him/her that you may have made a mistake but want to come clean and keep everything above board. On the one hand it's hard to believe that three conduct violations "slipped your mind." On the other hand, they are so minor that no reasonable person would have bothered to deliberately hide them. It's not like you were stalking an ex or hacked into the mainframe to change your grades. The best way to earn the benefit of the doubt is to expose the situation as rapidly and thoroughly as possible.

Yea, you're absolutely right. I'll schedule a meeting with him right away. At the latest it will be done by end of next week and I'll give an update on this thread.

 

[shoal]

not cleaning your dorm room is not an ia. thats absurd. now the alcohol is another issue altogether. im not sure why youre waiting till orientation to talk to the dean. if youre gonna do it. do it now. best of luck.

whoops missed the comment above.

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[medicine2923]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I am in a very similar situation to noodledoodle5000,

I essentially made the same error, and believe it or not the realization of that error occurred independently of this thread. I am currently on a wait list at two schools, and my error occurred to me while updating AMCAS for the 2017 cycle.

I was written up as a freshman for possession of alcohol in the dorms. I failed to include this on my 2016 AMCAS application because it never occurred to me that I'd been the recipient of an IA. The only sanction was a reflection paper and ECHUG (online alcohol assessment and feedback tool), both of which I submitted the same day of the incident. The matter was resolved the same day it occurred by my residence hall, and I wasn't aware of any involvement by the office of student conduct, so I never categorized it as an IA. I thought it was an easy 'No" answer and I moved on. I include this information only to describe why I made the error. I didn't forget entirely per se, nor did I willfully falsify my application. When filling out the IA section on my 2016 AMCAS, the incident just didn't even come to mind.

I've since contacted the office of student conduct which verified they had record of the incident. I have already contacted the admissions offices of both schools I am wait listed at to rectify the issue and basically described the IA as well as why it wasn't initially reported (failure to fully understand what constitutes an IA, failure to read simple instructions/perform due diligence).

My concern now is that if I end up needing to reapply, my first application includes no IA's and my second application will include one, and this discrepancy (not necessarily the IA) will be a red flag.
Is this discrepancy something I should address in AMCAS (e.g. "not only do I have an IA but I also failed to report it initially")?
Is there a way to update my initial AMCAS app to remove this discrepancy?
How will this discrepancy be viewed by adcoms next cycle?

If Goro or LizzyM would share their thoughts and advice, or anyone for that matter, I would appreciate it.

 

[TheZaLord]

I can see where someone would forget housing "citations". I was an RA, and did a bunch of those for people who hadn't cleaned rooms at check outs. It wasn't a behavior reprimand thing, but essentially charging them a fee because the university would now have to pay someone to clean/clean more thoroughly than usual. A lot of people felt that was better than taking the time themselves. So, it wasn't an IA, but a fee. I think if there were a pattern of this happening or a lot of damage, one might be barred from campus housing, but that's all.

It's the alcohol one I am not sure of. I had to do a few reports for alcohol/parties with underaged student. Police never got involved, but I am pretty sure the reports would go to the Dean, or some type of administrator.

My roommates junior year (in a campus apartment) had gone on a party bus with an un-approved fraternity. Everything happened off campus, but several were ticketed for underage drinking, and that went to the dean since there was a predominance of students from our school, and there was this un-affiliated fraternity, I suppose. So there were implications for housing and at the school itself.

A couple of the people involved in either incident were pre-med and had to disclose this. It worked out fine for at least one of them. The other had some other issues on top of that, though.

 

[noodledoodle5000]

Sorry for such a delayed update. I went down to the school and talked to the dean on Friday. I gave him my spiel. He thanked me for coming down and appreciated my honesty but told me that it could have been done over the phone and was a non-issue lol. All-in-all the conversation last less than ten minutes. Thanks for the inputs, everyone!

 

[desiredmembername123]

Just one more example of the insane neurotic behavior that sdn sometimes has...

 

[futuremdforme]

How did you find out about it in the end? Honestly this is line with having a misdemeanour for having a speeding ticket -- it's not fair that it's a reportable offence in some areas, but not others. Can they prove that you knew about it? It seems reasonable to me that you would have no idea that failure to clean a dorm room would end up in an IA!

 

[Med Ed]

Sorry for such a delayed update. I went down to the school and talked to the dean on Friday. I gave him my spiel. He thanked me for coming down and appreciated my honesty but told me that it could have been done over the phone and was a non-issue lol. All-in-all the conversation last less than ten minutes. Thanks for the inputs, everyone!

Congrats. You may now matriculate with a spotless conscience.

 

[235009]

Sorry for such a delayed update. I went down to the school and talked to the dean on Friday. I gave him my spiel. He thanked me for coming down and appreciated my honesty but told me that it could have been done over the phone and was a non-issue lol. All-in-all the conversation last less than ten minutes. Thanks for the inputs, everyone!

Good example of why putting so much faith in the "advice" of a couple of anonymous adcom members is a huge flaw with the pre-med mentality on SDN. I said multiple times this was a non-issue and that Goro is wrong but of course nobody listens.


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[Med Ed]

Good example of why putting so much faith in the "advice" of a couple of anonymous adcom members is a huge flaw with the pre-med mentality on SDN. I said multiple times this was a non-issue and that Goro is wrong but of course nobody listens.

The problem is that schools vary widely in how they deal with issues, owing to differences in both policy and personality. One could look at this and say the infractions were so minor they aren't worth reporting, and that would be a reasonable stance for most people. Conversely, one could say the infractions were so minor that they aren't worth risking even the infinitesimal chance of something going awry.

I do think that AMCAS's approach to IA's (report them all, no matter how minor, even if they have been erased) is idiotic.