FP Gold

[CaymanIslander]

Is it true that since the cap is removed, Canadian FP's are raking in 500k+ a year after overhead and before taxes? This is insane, i have heard it from more than one source that the shortage of docs led to a cap removal and tons of chaching in the pocket of FP's in Canada.

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[PistolPete]

I'm pretty sure this is total BS. Maybe this is limited to some super remote rural areas?

 

[cbest]

It's do-able if you work a TON of hours... the more patients you see, the more you can bill!

 

[pattycanuck]

I'm pretty sure this is total BS. Maybe this is limited to some super remote rural areas?

If you call 1-2 hours outside of Toronto being too boonie-ish ... this is still possible in cities that are 80,000 in size, but not in major centres ... this is more a reality in Ontario with it's remodeled Family Practice delivery plan.

I know A NUMBER family docs that personally clear +$500k gross and now have a life (40 hours a week). A lot of it has to do with the AFPs/AFAs and the FHT/FHO/FHN bonuses and guarantees. Quick search on the net for these AFAs and AFPs with the details of the FHT guarantees on the OMA or Ontario MOHLTC's websites will clearly give you the numbers and you can do the math ...

I have already signed on and will be practicing in a FHO - with my expected schedule, I should clear a minimum of +$400k and that is working a bit of hospitalist/ER(AFA)/no afternours clinic/4-5 sessions per week/AFA oncall with billings. That is in my first year in practice and will slowly increase that. If all works well that year, I'll expand a bit more and theorize that I will be making +$500k with only 40+ hours a week.

So in a simple answer: NOT BS.

 

[dirtymac42]

So in a simple answer: NOT BS.

I agree... depends if you have staff to pay or other overhead (which someone did mention above). But totally doable now w/o the cap in Southern Ontario.

 

[PistolPete]

I stand corrected. What are "AFPs/AFAs" and "FHT/FHO/FHN bonuses"?? Forgive my ignorance. Google found nothing relevant.

Also, would similar opportunities be available in the future for Canadian who are DO's?

 

[pattycanuck]

I stand corrected. What are "AFPs/AFAs" and "FHT/FHO/FHN bonuses"?? Forgive my ignorance. Google found nothing relevant.

Also, would similar opportunities be available in the future for Canadian who are DO's?

Not sure about the DO docs.

AFP = alternative funding programs
AFA = alternative funding arrangements
Family Health Teams/Organizations/Networks - performed a simple google search on "Family Health Team Ontario" and came up with this link as the first entry: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/fht/fht_guides.html

should all be there (many documents) - some of the figures for compensation are smaller than those present as some of the guides were created in 2005 or 2006 and since have increased (such as a minimum salary of $170k under a FHO/FHN/FHT).

 

[CaymanIslander]

Do these same salaries apply for an IM doc practicing general medicine?

What is the process for an American trained grad to practice in Canada? How long would it take? What exams must be completed? Will they give you immigration to practice as a doc?

Do any of you know if you can bring your parents to Canada as well? I have to parents with some health problems and would like to take care of them.

 

[pattycanuck]

Do these same salaries apply for an IM doc practicing general medicine? No. Incentives drawn up by the Ontario government are to tackle the problem of not having Family Doctors in Ontario. The small town incentives for most if not all specialists pale in comparison let alone the itty bitty relative bonuses they receive for their practices.

What is the process for an American trained grad to practice in Canada? How long would it take? What exams must be completed? Will they give you immigration to practice as a doc? Can enter the first round I believe for residency. Having all USMLEs 1-3 are seen as equivalent in Ontario to MCCQE1 and 2 - other provinces are pending. If applying as staff, maybe a different story. Stipulation for residency programs in Canada - MUST BE A CANADIAN CITIZEN OR PERMANENT RESIDENT. Not sure about citizenship status for staff, but I have perused the CMAJ and have seen that many staff advertisements (almost all I think) have the disclaimer that the individual applying must be a Canadian citizen or permanent resident. Thus, no situation of being a doc first and immigration second.

Do any of you know if you can bring your parents to Canada as well? I have to parents with some health problems and would like to take care of them.Even you are a Canadian citizen or permanent resident, it may be a problem. For them to benefit from the Canadian health care system (as socialist as it is), we the tax payer are the only ones privy to its benefits and that being said, if you are a permanent resident LIVING/RESIDING IN CANADA (thus allowed to tap into the provincial health system), then and only then you are allowed to reap the benefits. Otherwise your parents would pay as a private patients (can be almost as expensive as health costs in the US for many things).

Good luck!

 

[islandoc2B]

First of all, money is the last reason to study medicine.
Second, these numbers are BS.
Half a mil on a fourty hour week in FP: no way.
GP's I know start out at 80 hours per week and settle down to 60ish and half that salary with a huge patient load.
If you're chasing dollars, go into arbitrage, trading commercial paper, or other financial specialties.

 

[islandoc2B]

Congrats on the signing bonus.
Perhaps you're counting that as part of your first year's income?

Good luck on the IMG route, but research that topic: it's very difficult to
return to Canada.

 

[pattycanuck]

Congrats on the signing bonus.
Perhaps you're counting that as part of your first year's income?

Good luck on the IMG route, but research that topic: it's very difficult to
return to Canada.

Dude, not part of the signing bonus - get back in first and really see how the new FHN/FHO/FHT system in Ontario works.

I'll make my $4-500k salary on my 40-50h week - yes, but moreso, I will enjoy working as a FP.

 

[goose121a]

PattyCanuck - I'm assuming you had to sign an ROS for residency in Ontario? How did this affect your choice of location/signing bonus for practice? i.e. apparently the ROS leaves you open to fielding offers (incl massive signing bonuses - congrats!)?

 

[pattycanuck]

PattyCanuck - I'm assuming you had to sign an ROS for residency in Ontario? How did this affect your choice of location/signing bonus for practice? i.e. apparently the ROS leaves you open to fielding offers (incl massive signing bonuses - congrats!)?

Hey goose121a,

Yes, ROS signed. The big thing for me is that I did want to practice in Ontario. Partly because of the FHT/AFP systems, part that I didn't have to fully work my *** off to make ends meet in a FFS (fee for service) model like most/all other provinces do for FM, and partly because my home province (ie not Ontario) was crap for it's billing service comparatively - according to friends who are practicing FMs there.

Likewise, city practice (ie Toronto) and the commuting associated with it were a no go area for me also. Thus other regions like Ottawa were also not appealing. Keeping in mind that I do like these cities socially, but if practicing is where I am going to be 1/2 of my day/life, I would want to make sure I maximize my time away from the practice (ie no commute) for my own personal reasons.

Take all of the above into consideration and plot that on the LADAU list and you'll see that pretty much everywhere outside of Toronto, Ottawa and Kingston are fair game for the ROS agreement. Maximize that with cheaper living and earning the same if not more as you will have access to do a lot more AFP contracts outside your FHT/FHN/FHO agreement ... your gross $4-500k goes a lot further outside of the big cities than in.

For clarification, it is not about the money; it is about having a life and able to make it secure for yourself and your family. I wouldn't want that in downtown Toronto with a $1m 900sqft condo. Rather, a 3000sqft house on the lake just 1 hours outside of it for just $250k is more appealing.

 

[goose121a]

Good info PattyCanuck. Very familiar with house prices in the T-Dot, I'm a born and bred (don't hate on me ppl 🙂 ). My interest is that I forsee myself doing something very similar to your situation (albeit it many years from now so much may change).

So the terms of the ROS tell you to pick a place from the LADAU list and then you look for specific offers from whatever FHTs tend to be in that area i.e. the ROS does not dicate your pay as well only the area (within a list) and the length? Then you pick the area and seek out a job on your own - about right?

I'm with you that it's not about the money, I left a high-paying job to go back to school (and into debt) but with the Euro decimating my Canuck-bucks and my potential earning years less than my younger colleagues I'm starting to think practically 🙂)))

 

[islandoc2B]

Hey PattyCanuck,

I'm very much pro FP, I've just never heard of that salary range.
I had no idea Ontario was in that scale for FP, nor did I realize you
were not FFS. Wow and congrats.

 

[jefguth]

Hey PattyCanuck,

I'm very much pro FP, I've just never heard of that salary range.
I had no idea Ontario was in that scale for FP, nor did I realize you
were not FFS. Wow and congrats.

Just to clear somthing up here... we're not talking about "salary" as in "take home pay" right? What's really being discussed is gross collections or billings in the practice...from that (depending upon mode of practice) you pay your overhead (staff, utilities, rent, etc.) and are left with a "net" profit from which your personal income / "salary" is derived.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't imagine there are many FP docs that actually net 500K.... that would make them the highest paid FP/GP's in the world. US FP's usually aren't able to generate much more than 200K in income after their practice expenses - and that is at the VERY high end.

 

[pattycanuck]

Hey PattyCanuck,

I'm very much pro FP, I've just never heard of that salary range.
I had no idea Ontario was in that scale for FP, nor did I realize you
were not FFS. Wow and congrats.

No worries. It is dire wherever you go ... "are you going to stay here? we need family doctors here in (insert name of town/city)"

Lifestyle is a big part of it and renumeration has been a sore spot for many for some time (hence migration to the US of many primary physicians). This is an example of how some jurisdictions/provinces are trying to retain the new grads.

You can be salary and AFP (for "extra work") at the same time. FFS is not used as it used to be here in Ontario as in the past for family docs.

 

[pattycanuck]

Just to clear somthing up here... we're not talking about "salary" as in "take home pay" right? What's really being discussed is gross collections or billings in the practice...from that (depending upon mode of practice) you pay your overhead (staff, utilities, rent, etc.) and are left with a "net" profit from which your personal income / "salary" is derived.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't imagine there are many FP docs that actually net 500K.... that would make them the highest paid FP/GP's in the world. US FP's usually aren't able to generate much more than 200K in income after their practice expenses - and that is at the VERY high end.

I don't think I've ever said net, if so, apologies. You can gross $500k (salary and all other non-insured and AFP earnings lumped together) and if you work a conservative 70/30 split for expenses, you can net $350k. If your split is worse than that, then you are doing something wrong especially if there is a considerable non-insured/AFP portion ... 🙁

 

[famdoc]

the avg family doc in ontario makes approx 150k. There is no such thing as as 225k signing bonus. Dont be duped.. look at more like 15-20k signing bonus, that will come with a 4yr commitment to a rural area. thats the reality and easily verifiable.

 

[Jocks]

the avg family doc in ontario makes approx 150k. There is no such thing as as 225k signing bonus. Dont be duped.. look at more like 15-20k signing bonus, that will come with a 4yr commitment to a rural area. thats the reality and easily verifiable.

Really? Those Canadian Armed Forces recruiters lied to me!!

http://www.cma.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/10042243/la_id/1.htm

...I guess the CMA got duped as well....

 

[pattycanuck]

the avg family doc in ontario makes approx 150k. There is no such thing as as 225k signing bonus. Dont be duped.. look at more like 15-20k signing bonus, that will come with a 4yr commitment to a rural area. thats the reality and easily verifiable.

FOR EXAMPLE:
1) (City I signed to) $150k over 6 years
2) (Associated hospital) for hospitalist services $50k over 5 years plus $10k in moving expenses
3) FP grant for underserviced areas in Southern Ontario $15k over 4 years (if Northern Ontario it is $40k)

For a total of $225k ($250k in a Northern Ontario town)

If you were a Canadian graduate, you can add on another $40k from the free tuition grant for a total of $265k ($280k in the North) as purely a signing bonus ...

Get your fact straight dude - one town close by was also offering $125k over 5 years - to counter - and another northern town was offering $100k - let alone other numerous incentives that were non-financial....🙄

Working in a FHN/FHT/FHO, you're guaranteed $170k per year let alone first year graduate and yearly bonuses for new recruits and preventative medicine which amount to $30-60k annually (MOHLTC website) and add a few shifts on the side in ER if you want at $150-200/hr (AFA) - THEN DO THE MATH (way above $150k pa)

Are you actually a FDr or a trainee in Ontario? If you are, you have your head so deep in the sand ... to really get what you deserve, you have to go beyond the "verifiable" - let the recruiters really tell you what you are worth