FP vs IM residency: Relative difficulty

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patapon

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Hey FPers,

How difficult is FP residency compared to IM residency? I keep hearing that FP residency is like "IM lite" + OB + pedi, but I suspect that it's not like IM lite at all (at unopposed programs). In fact, my suspicion is that it's even harder than IM residency, at many (unopposed) programs.

My definition of difficulty is: Hours / wk, difficulty and frequency of call, difficulty of dx / tx, etc.

Thoughts?

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Hey FPers,

How difficult is FP residency compared to IM residency? I keep hearing that FP residency is like "IM lite" + OB + pedi, but I suspect that it's not like IM lite at all (at unopposed programs). In fact, my suspicion is that it's even harder than IM residency, at many (unopposed) programs.

My definition of difficulty is: Hours / wk, difficulty and frequency of call, difficulty of dx / tx, etc.

Thoughts?

This is for certification information AFTER residency sorry.
FM residency is not that bad -- First year call is hard sometimes.
well I believe that IM does not have REcertification examinations every 7 to 10 years, like FM, where almost a quarter of the people fail.
FM has certification and recertification examinations, that are quite difficult.
The IM pass rate is around 92% for the CERTIFICATION examination, and then they are done for the rest of their lives with test taking as I understand.
FM pass rate is around 75% -- and this is for Certification as well as REcertification (being out of residency for 10 years, and then having to go to a computer with several hundred difficult questions in a row)
Residency is probably more cush at some places, than an intensive IM program.
 
From FP standpoint, I break it down to Hospital vs Ambulatory, Emergent/Urgent vs Chronic Disease Management.

Majority of FP residencies are broken down into traditional rotations or blocks that you may know through med school (although there are a few programs experimenting with dissolving that system). Generally, if you want to compare inpatient-to-outpatient, during intern year it's 80:20, then 50:50 in 2nd year, then 20:80 in 3rd year; with variations from program to program. Also, in intern year you may have 1-2 half days in your continuity clinic and then it increases to 3-5 in your 3rd year.

Call varies from program to program and rotation to rotation, whether or not there's night float, and how your program handles hospitalization of your continuity patients.

At unopposed FP programs, when you're rotating with subspecialists (or "off-service") you usually work with 1 or a group of attendings, and you do everything they do: clinic, their hospital service, their consults, and whatever procedures/tests/operations.

Hospital rotations tend to have patients with higher acuity, but you have more diagnostic tests or treatment options at beck and call; e.g. consults are seen the next day, you can order stat labs or imaging, you can have 24 hour monitoring like checking vitals, checking labs for treatment response, making patients NPO, getting them physical therapy...

Ambulatory rotations tend to have patients of more stable acuity, although not necessarily "easier". Labs take time, consults/referrals take time, and imaging takes time. You have less control over the patient (you can't control over a patient's diet, activity, medication compliance like you can in the hospital). You have less monitoring, presumably because you don't need to. So sometimes, the diagnostic uncertainty is a little higher because of those things and sometimes you have to make the decision whether to put someone in the hospital or not.

And the further out you go, the less you have. For example, if you travel to 3rd world country, you'll have less things available to you. Or your clinic may not have everything you need. Or if you're out on the football field or at a nursing home, you have less things to use and start to rely more on physical exam. Sometimes, getting a history is very difficult, especially in the elderly and in kids/adolescents.

There are a lot of similarities but also a lot of differences.

In IM, you're mostly hospital-based. You rotate through all the IM specialties. Generally, IM residencies have less continuity clinic compared to FM. Some IM programs will have outpatient months.

And your hours and calls vary. Sometimes during hospital rotations, I leave after my work is done or I'll stay until I hand off the pager (7-7) or I might need to work weekends. In clinic, I may be there from 8-5, no weekends.

At my program, if a lady I've been following in OB goes into labor at 2 am, I wake my butt up and go to the hospital to deliver that kid regardless of what rotation or clinic schedule I have. I'll take care of mom and kid and then see them in my clinic.

It's hard to generalize across residencies. It just all depends on the set up of the program. And census too. I don't think describing a program as "IM lite" or "OB lite" or "Peds lite" truly captures what goes on.
 
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Sheesh... did I really type all that? I guess it's such a vague question that it's hard to be on point.

Basically, when you compare residencies, look deep down at the specifics. "Difficulty" depends on the set up, the acuity, and the census. And by set up, I mean, what are your job responsibilities, how many people will I be working with, are there things around that make me more efficient.
 
Hey FPers,

How difficult is FP residency compared to IM residency? I keep hearing that FP residency is like "IM lite" + OB + pedi, but I suspect that it's not like IM lite at all (at unopposed programs). In fact, my suspicion is that it's even harder than IM residency, at many (unopposed) programs.

My definition of difficulty is: Hours / wk, difficulty and frequency of call, difficulty of dx / tx, etc.

Thoughts?

What is "IM lite"? How could this possibly occur at an unopposed FM program with no IM residents were the FM residents take all the admissions, cover the floors and the ICU?

No my friend, Unopposed FM residencies (at least mine) are no walk in the park. It is tough. Our program is very heavy in in-patient medicine. Our hospital has 3 admitting teams. There is only 1 intern and 1 third year resident on-call each night who take in ALL THE ADMISSIONS from the ER. In addition to covering ALL the medicine floors and the ICU.

The on-call FM attending, covers the medicine, OB, and the peds service. It is crazy. This is why I want to leave FM to go into something more "cush".

Who ever thinks FM residency is easier than IM residency (at unopposed programs), or that the patients are less complicated, is an idiot who knows nothing about FM.
 
Thanks for all the great responses, everyone! This is a topic that nobody ever talks about but that is very important, and your responses are invaluable.
 
well I believe that IM does not have REcertification examinations every 7 to 10 years, like FM, where almost a quarter of the people fail.
FM has certification and recertification examinations, that are quite difficult.
The IM pass rate is around 92% for the CERTIFICATION examination, and then they are done for the rest of their lives with test taking as I understand.

Is this correct? I was under the impression that recertification for specialty boards in all the fields of medicine was a once a decade process.
 
I'm at an unopposed FM program, and it is nothing like I would have imagined. It is really tough learning OB/Peds/Internal at the level of residents in that actual specialty. We do EVERYTHING. It's hard to juggle the different types of patients. If I had known what it would be like, I would have done an opposed FM residency, or just plain ol' IM.
 
I'm at an unopposed FM program, and it is nothing like I would have imagined. It is really tough learning OB/Peds/Internal at the level of residents in that actual specialty. We do EVERYTHING. It's hard to juggle the different types of patients. If I had known what it would be like, I would have done an opposed FM residency, or just plain ol' IM.

If I would have known that 18% of US grads failed the Certification examination after residency, including one third of IMGs
People in their 60s and 70s and 50s have to deal with this stress. Unbelievable.
Hands down and without a doubt, cruel and unfair to the maximum.
 
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It seems easier at an opposed program, at least at my place... although I'm only an MS4, I've had lots of experience with both the IM and FM here and have looked at both... FM and categorical IM are about the same size here, although IM has the benefit of all its prelims giving it 2x the interns and thus 2x the unskilled labor... FM has just one inpatient service to its name as opposed to IM's four, with a corresponding decrease in inpt time per resident, and much less rotating through subspecialties (unless taken as electives). There is the hell that is OB, of course, but even that is off-service and FM residents going through get easier schedules as opposed to the OB residents.

A lot of people on both sides say that "Someday" (tm) FM will be synonymous with outpatient, and IM will be synonymous with inpatient. The IM hospitalist trend certainly argues the point.

I kind of want to do both, but it seems if that is the case, I might need to do a subspecialty such as cards... :/
 
The IM pass rate is around 92% for the CERTIFICATION examination, and then they are done for the rest of their lives with test taking as I understand.

This is definitely not true. IM recertifies every 10 years. Most specialties are requiring recertification unless they were "grandfathered" before the changes went into effect. Then an individual would be "certified indefinitely."

Nu
 
This is definitely not true. IM recertifies every 10 years. Most specialties are requiring recertification unless they were "grandfathered" before the changes went into effect. Then an individual would be "certified indefinitely."

Nu


I see, then I was misinformed. Thanks for the clarification.
 
I kind of want to do both, but it seems if that is the case, I might need to do a subspecialty such as cards... :/

If you want to do both, I suggest you think about UNOPPOSED FM residency programs. 70% of my program's graduates each year decide to get jobs as Hospitalists. Most work as pure hospitalists (2 weeks on, 2 weeks off), Others do Hospitalist work in addition to outpatient clinic with procedures (as a "side job"). The real CRAZY ones, who are super FM fans, decide to practice the "full spectrum" of FM, meaning In-patient (adult, peds, ob) and Out-patient (adult, peds, ob). Very tough.

Our FM program is basicly an IM program plus peds, and OB...with great stress on IN-PATIENT medicine. We are an un-opposed university affiliated program (running under the name of the medical school), but we are based in a 600 bed community hospital were we are the only residents. The medical school and the University Hospital are few blocks across, but we only do few rotations there.

To give you a sence of how strong the in-patient service(s) are at our FM program, 3rd year medical students do their Medicine CORE rotation at OUR FM program. We also have many IM and FM 4th year medical student "AIs" in our program. Also due to the strength of our OB teaching service, we have the university's EM residents do their OB rotation at our program (instead of doing it at university hospital). They also do their IM rotation at our program.

If I would have known before-hand about how much in-patient medicine we do at our program, I would have just gone to an IM program instead...It would have been easier to handle than my current program.
 
Leukocyte,

I'll be rotating there in September. I'll buy you a cup of coffee (that's all I can afford right now)!
 
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