Frats and cheating

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confettiflyer said:
gimme my trophy!
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Are you sure you want your trophy? :laugh:

Horses-Rear-Bobble-Butt-Trophies.jpg






😛
 
PharmDstudent said:
No one is saying that. They're saying that they can use online resources that are available, even if the mindless professor says not to access those sites, because there is no way to stop someone from accessing the site before they were told not to, i.e. I could access the website before the class even starts.
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Why would you access the site before it applies to you, and without knowing it would ever apply to you? Yeah, I could randomly look up a macroeconomics test if I wanted, but why would I think that would help me in pharmacy school? I've done worse things than cheating on a test, but I know when I'm dishonest.
 
PharmDstudent said:
Are you sure you want your trophy? :laugh:

Horses-Rear-Bobble-Butt-Trophies.jpg

😛
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I'm loving the fact that the image name is "Horses-Rear-Bobble-Butt-Trophies.jpg"

what the heck did you search for on google images?

and no i can't have the trophy, because rphello said so. In fact, I can't have cookies or use the bathroom either, because he said so.
 
rphello said:
Why would you access the site before it applies to you, and without knowing it would ever apply to you? Yeah, I could randomly look up a macroeconomics test if I wanted, but why would I think that would help me in pharmacy school? I've done worse things than cheating on a test, but I know when I'm dishonest.
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Yeah but it's tantamount to telling a student "hey I don't want you to learn via any method except what I give in lecture" which a professor has no right to do, unless you like take in the behind daily.
 
rphello said:
Why would you access the site before it applies to you, and without knowing it would ever apply to you? Yeah, I could randomly look up a macroeconomics test if I wanted, but why would I think that would help me in pharmacy school? I've done worse things than cheating on a test, but I know when I'm dishonest.
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That's the point. You would never know if someone else has already done that... which would put you at a disadvantage. Students are savvy these days. Some of my classmates were studying Therapeutics over the Christmas break last year... before the first Therapeutics class even started! :scared:
 
rphello said:
Why would you access the site before it applies to you, and without knowing it would ever apply to you? Yeah, I could randomly look up a macroeconomics test if I wanted, but why would I think that would help me in pharmacy school? I've done worse things than cheating on a test, but I know when I'm dishonest.
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Yeah but it's tantamount to telling a student "hey I don't want you to learn via any method except what I give in lecture" which a professor has no right to do, unless you like to take it in the behind daily.
 
confettiflyer said:
i think i just won the internet because rphello hasn't addressed any of my other examples and agreed with me about the exam dissemination thing.

And usually when people start a) blaming the media b) talking about God/scripture/making biblical references, there's nothing else back there to throw out.

gimme my trophy!
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I said your examples don't make sense. If that's not refuting you, then what am I supposed to do? I used God as an authority figure because it applies to 80% of the US, and I figured a parental figure would cover the rest. You could be a pagan and worship the Sun for all I care, I was looking for an authority.
 
confettiflyer said:
This one is for you, you'd enjoy this one a lot. I'd give this to rphello too, actually.

trophy.jpg


Edit: I spy....LONGS DRUGS CHALLENGE!!! hahahahahah
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Haha! I don't play golf! That must go to Z... :meanie:
 
confettiflyer said:
Yeah but it's tantamount to telling a student "hey I don't want you to learn via any method except what I give in lecture" which a professor has no right to do, unless you like to take it in the behind daily.
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Well, no professor has told me that, but I have heard don't copy the test. I'm arguing with the folks who said it's fine if everyone does it, it's your fault for not joining a fraternity, you're a fool for not seeking the copied tests. Just because someone else cuts corners or doesn't play by the rules, doesn't give you free reign to do as you please. There's still basic decency and honesty.
 
rphello said:
I said your examples don't make sense.
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They make perfect sense...this goes back to the issue you brought up that:

"If the professor trusts you to not look at the site because that's where your test questions come from, then to look at the site is dishonest because it's a violation of trust."

Assuming it's publicly available (like WVU's Yale website, not some teacher's edition somewhere), the professor can say whatever the hell he/she wants, but they can't reasonably expect someone to shy away from said information. It's akin to them telling you not to read chapter 23 in your textbook. I suppose in some certain relativistic viewpoint it's "dishonest," but that viewpoint isn't valid IMO.

If you can't link these two together, I don't know what else to say. It's different from a professor telling you to not use notes during a test or not disseminate a copy, that's a different process. I'm talking about the learning process, which inherently isn't subject to the same restrictions.
 
confettiflyer said:
They make perfect sense...this goes back to the issue you brought up that:

"If the professor trusts you to not look at the site because that's where your test questions come from, then to look at the site is dishonest because it's a violation of trust."

Assuming it's publicly available (like WVU's Yale website, not some teacher's edition somewhere), the professor can say whatever the hell he/she wants, but they can't reasonably expect someone to shy away from said information. It's akin to them telling you not to read chapter 23 in your textbook. I suppose in some certain relativistic viewpoint it's "dishonest," but that viewpoint isn't valid IMO.

If you can't link these two together, I don't know what else to say. It's different from a professor telling you to not use notes during a test or not disseminate a copy, that's a different process. I'm talking about the learning process, which inherently isn't subject to the same restrictions.
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WVU's example was unambiguous. I see no problem with that, and the professor was a fool. I guess I'm coming from the relativistic viewpoint, because your examples don't make sense to me only because they don't convince me it's not dishonest. It seems like a violation of trust to me, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Well, I'm sorry, but we obviously can't convince each other. Nice talking with you though.
 
confettiflyer said:
np. I think we actually agree on everything. Good show. Okay, goodnight. 😴
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I guess dry humor doesn't go over well on the internet without an accompanying emoticon or graphic. ED and 4chan do that stuff pretty well.:hello:
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Then maybe said deity shouldn't have wired the human brain to react in such a way if he didn't want it to happen. It's like playing Jenga and getting pissed off at the manufacturer that the tower collapsed at some point in the gam.e
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Yeah, I can see that, but I guess my point is accountability more than anything else. If you build a Jenga tower and then leave it alone, it should stand perfectly forever. You decide which pieces to remove and which to leave, but if your actions cause the tower to fall, then you must accept responsibility.
 
rphello said:
Yeah, I can see that, but I guess my point is accountability more than anything else. If you build a Jenga tower and then leave it alone, it should stand perfectly forever. You decide which pieces to remove and which to leave, but if your actions cause the tower to fall, then you must accept responsibility.
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Yeah...but in this example with a deity, you're just apart of the tower...
 
Praziquantel86 said:
Antibiotics aren't typically indicated for acute bronchitis in an uncomplicated patient.

As far as cheating goes, some of these scenarios are absolutely ridiculous. I don't care if the dean of my school tells me not to look in a textbook, I'm going to do it. Any reasonable person would. Professors know what information is readily accessible, if they choose to ignore that, it's their own damn fault. Y'all need to get off of your stupidly high horses.
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Hmm you're right, just re-read the slide that said use of antibiotics is discouraged in acute bronchitis.

Either way, I just was trying to make a point about how easy it is to re-write a question. Preggers teenager = no flouroquinolones.
 
The fraternity at my school used to sell the old exams, of course sanctioned by the school. However there were a few faculty that didn't want to make up new questions so they made the fraternity stop selling. That obviously didn't stop passing down old exams, so now most teachers don't give back their exams.
 
iPLEDGE said:
and that's why he goes to Touro.
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Be nice to young Sparda. He's a lovely P1, not a jaded P3 who's about to go on rotations or anything... 🙂
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
The inconsistency is ridiculous. It's all f'n ridiculous. Academia is a bizarre, pretentious world that I hope every day I never have to experience again.
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Haha...so true

Just the typical social bureaucratic nonsense.
 
Sparda29 said:
What do you guys think about this and if this is cheating?

Back in undergraduate microbiology, I pretty much bombed the first exam. Then I was going through the online website that the textbook came in, and discovered that the professor was taking questions from the online website practice section and using them on the exams. I just studied those practice sections and aced the rest of the exams.
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This actually happened to me too. I was taking an organic chemistry class and was looking for extra practice questions when I stumbled across online tests that MIT puts up. I took the tests to prepare for my exam. When I took the real exam, it turned out that the prof used the exact same questions on her exam. I don't think it was cheating because I didn't do it on purpose but I felt so guilty about it that I told the prof. She didn't think it was a big deal but her future questions didn't come from that source any longer.
 
diastole said:
This actually happened to me too. I was taking an organic chemistry class and was looking for extra practice questions when I stumbled across online tests that MIT puts up. I took the tests to prepare for my exam. When I took the real exam, it turned out that the prof used the exact same questions on her exam. I don't think it was cheating because I didn't do it on purpose but I felt so guilty about it that I told the prof. She didn't think it was a big deal but her future questions didn't come from that source any longer.
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You are lucky. I tried to find question source that my Micro professor used, but I was unsuccessful. The class was so freaking hard because she had Ph.D from MIT, and she took the questions from there for us to do. There was no curve, no bonus, nothing. I ended up with an A- with a big surprise. Because of that I partied all night.😀
 
Sparda29 said:
It was on the list of preferred along with Augmentin.
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Augmentin would be the far better option. Levofloxacin has lost a good amount of efficacy due to overuse, and recommendations are to now use 750mg daily as opposed to the previously recommended 500mg. With the higher dose comes the possibility of many more side effects.

Regardless, it would be pretty silly to prescribe an antibiotic for acute bronchitis. The vast majority of cases are viral in nature and self-limiting.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
Augmentin would be the far better option. Levofloxacin has lost a good amount of efficacy due to overuse, and recommendations are to now use 750mg daily as opposed to the previously recommended 500mg. With the higher dose comes the possibility of many more side effects.

Regardless, it would be pretty silly to prescribe an antibiotic for acute bronchitis. The vast majority of cases are viral in nature and self-limiting.
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Let's make a change to that question then. Replace acute bronchitis with pneumonia.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
And yet when they go to their family physician, they'll give 'em whatever effective drug they have lying around a drug rep brought in last week....
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Wait, do you hear that? It's the sound of the real world and academia colliding.
 
iPLEDGE said:
If you had reported it to the ACPE or Board of Pharmacy, then the school would have no choice but to go forward with the expulsion.
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stop being a bitch!! why are you so concerned with cheating so much? you must be the bottom of the barrel in intelligence if you have to bitch like this.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
That goes without saying. I can't wait to see my first Zyvox script for a kid with an earache.
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Physicians aren't that stupid...plus, they are afraid of Zyvox, anyway. It has been typecast as "that drug you use for ambulatory MRSA coming off of IV vanc". I've never seen it used for anything else, ever...
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
Physicians aren't that stupid...plus, they are afraid of Zyvox, anyway. It has been typecast as "that drug you use for ambulatory MRSA coming off of IV vanc". I've never seen it used for anything else, ever...
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Only time I've ever seen it used outpatient was a cardiologist treating his wife for cellulitis. He got really angry when we asked if it was the first thing he tried. She was on an SSRI too; according to him, the weak MAOI issue is a myth.

If this is a cardiologist talking, I can't imagine an NP would be much better.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
Only time I've ever seen it used outpatient was a cardiologist treating his wife for cellulitis. He got really angry when we asked if it was the first thing he tried. She was on an SSRI too; according to him, the weak MAOI issue is a myth.

If this is a cardiologist talking, I can't imagine an NP would be much better.
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I dunno...I don't think he's that nuts. Cellulitis has a propensity towards being MRSA...he's being aggressive...its his wife...and the potential for serotonin syndrome is low in the real world with Zyvox.

Now if he's trying to prescribe digoxin for MRSA...that's nuts...
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
I dunno...I don't think he's that nuts. Cellulitis has a propensity towards being MRSA...he's being aggressive...its his wife...and the potential for serotonin syndrome is low in the real world with Zyvox.
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I agree about the serotonin syndrome incidence being low, but with the remote possibility (not to mention other side effects), you wouldn't try something else first? Even after taking aggressiveness into account, I feel like there are better options.
 
confettiflyer said:
This one is for you, you'd enjoy this one a lot. I'd give this to rphello too, actually.

trophy.jpg


Edit: I spy....LONGS DRUGS CHALLENGE!!! hahahahahah
Click to expand...

Do you think this golfer chick has seen this pic? Hilarious.

rphello said:
WVU's example was unambiguous. I see no problem with that, and the professor was a fool. I guess I'm coming from the relativistic viewpoint, because your examples don't make sense to me only because they don't convince me it's not dishonest. It seems like a violation of trust to me, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. Well, I'm sorry, but we obviously can't convince each other. Nice talking with you though.
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I think you meant realistic viewpoint. A relativistic point of view abandons the idea of absolute right and wrong and is widely discredited by the religious world meaning that you couldn't say it IS dishonest because there are no absolutes, especially if said viewpoint is based on teachings of a particular faith.

Is it cheating? Technically yes, however it isn't realistic for a professor to trust every student not to check out a certain chapter or whatever the case is. The edu system is a dog eat dog environment and any professor with half a brain should know the lengths some will go to for an upper hand. Reading a unauthorized chapter is child's play. So, if any blame is to be given I believe it's on the professor.

As far as using old tests goes I'll say this. If it isn't material that everyone else has it's cheating. If you played that game in undergrad so be it, but for your professional phase take the extra hit to the GPA and loose the training wheels.

HyZaAr21 said:
stop being a bitch!! why are you so concerned with cheating so much? you must be the bottom of the barrel in intelligence if you have to bitch like this.
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Defensive eh? Sounds like your in a frat that hands down papers or something. Maybe you should take some hyzaar Hyzaar, relax, and stop calling the lady a bitch.
 
atticus27 said:
I think you meant realistic viewpoint. A relativistic point of view abandons the idea of absolute right and wrong and is widely discredited by the religious world meaning that you couldn't say it IS dishonest because there are no absolutes, especially if said viewpoint is based on teachings of a particular faith.

Is it cheating? Technically yes, however it isn't realistic for a professor to trust every student not to check out a certain chapter or whatever the case is. The edu system is a dog eat dog environment and any professor with half a brain should know the lengths some will go to for an upper hand. Reading a unauthorized chapter is child's play. So, if any blame is to be given I believe it's on the professor.
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I'll start by saying thanks for discussing this in a diplomatic manner and I do not have enough training in philosophy, ethics, or morality to categorize my belief system. I referred to a relativistic point of view in direct response to an earlier post asserting that I ascribe to said point of view.

I agree that it's not a realistic point of view, but I still stand by my conclusion that it's technically wrong. Examples provided by those arguing against my views were still technically wrong. I don't understand the disconnect, because it's obvious to me.

As far as education being dog eat dog, I suppose you're right. I can't tell you why, but I've never felt that way. I've never felt like I was in competition with my peers. I always felt like we students were in competition with the faculty. They are the ones that can destroy us, so we shouldn't worry about destroying each other. I thought academia was an oppressive environment because of the faculty and administration, not because of fellow students and competition with them. Maybe that's the disconnect.

Thanks again for the discussion.
 
Some of the old tests were available in the library where I went to school. Either way, your still looking up the answers and I believe this is called studying. :meanie:
 
rphello said:
I'll start by saying thanks for discussing this in a diplomatic manner and I do not have enough training in philosophy, ethics, or morality to categorize my belief system. I referred to a relativistic point of view in direct response to an earlier post asserting that I ascribe to said point of view.

I agree that it's not a realistic point of view, but I still stand by my conclusion that it's technically wrong. Examples provided by those arguing against my views were still technically wrong. I don't understand the disconnect, because it's obvious to me.

As far as education being dog eat dog, I suppose you're right. I can't tell you why, but I've never felt that way. I've never felt like I was in competition with my peers. I always felt like we students were in competition with the faculty. They are the ones that can destroy us, so we shouldn't worry about destroying each other. I thought academia was an oppressive environment because of the faculty and administration, not because of fellow students and competition with them. Maybe that's the disconnect.

Thanks again for the discussion.
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Our competition are the pharmacists who already have jobs. Basically, we want to be more attractive to employers than these old farts. :meanie:
 
This been a fascinating discussion. I really admire the amount of thought that goes into justifying cheating. I really admire the straw man arguments bringing other hypothetical situations to bear and then saying this is not cheating so the original situation is also not cheating.

I have my own personal theories on why there is such an dearth of ethics in the world today. But neither the OP nor the thread really cares about why people do things (or why I think people do things) it's about a simple situation.

If you apply to and are accepted into a university there is a code of conduct you agree to abide by as a student. When the instructor tells you up front that you are not to copy the tests and you are not to be in possession of same then copying them is a violation of your code of conduct. In short it is cheating. This is not gray at all. This is crystal clear.

Whether your cheating damages yourself or anyone else, whether those that are caught cheating are punished appropriately; whether the teachers should make new questions every year is besides the point.
 
^ I was waiting to see how long it took someone to point out the obvious truth. :laugh:
 
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