Frequent Fliers

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macdaddy23

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My department is looking to curb the number of frequent flier, mostly chronic pain patients who we all have.
There was an article within the past year or so in EP Monthly, or one of the other journals most of us receive, which pertains to this. Specifically my director wants to know the legality of it all which the article I can't find did reference.

If anyone has any insight into this or can find the article I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks
 
We implemented a chronic pain policy. FOr people who have multiple chronic complaints and seek narcotics, or for people who present with the same chronic complaint, we can use this policy. It was written by our hospital attorney, with the help of head nurses and our ER director. We give no IV narcotics to these people, unless they are vomiting despite ODT zofran, and we give no narcotic prescriptions.

The frequent fliers still come in. I'm not sure if it is because they are *****ic or because it is not universally enforced.

If I remember from undergraduate psych, they did a study of rats where they wanted to see what reward system encouraged a certain behavior (pushing a button). The reward system that resulted in the most frequent button-pushing was the random award. That is why gambling is so addictive. You would never gamble if you knew that you would occasionally win, but mostly lose consistently.

One of my partners really doesn't care about the pain policy and he walks in the room of the most egregious offenders and writes for IV narcotics right off the bat. It is the easier path to just make them happy in the short run, decrease length of stay, rule out emergencies and send them on their doped up way.

The problem is that for certain patients, this rewarding behavior is the worst thing we could possibly do for them.

Is this the article you were looking for?
http://www.mdconsult.com/das/articl...&sid=918608858/N/582417/1.html?issn=0735-6757

Effectiveness of nonnarcotic protocol for the treatment of acute exacerbations of chronic nonmalignant pain American Journal of Emergency Medicine - Volume 25, Issue 4 (May 2007)
 
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One way of treating the pain, but not giving the rush is to give the IV narcotics in a 250mL saline bag over 20 minutes. That way if they complain that you did not treat their pain, you still gave the 1mg of Dilaudid, it was just over 20 minutes. There is still the same pain control, just not the rush of the bolus of meds.
 
Where I'm at right now, it's not enough of a problem to be a problem. Where I came from, the system used a "4-4-4" paradigm, but only at the main hospital. It was at least 4 visits in the past 4 months, with a triage level of 4 or lower (1 most acute, 5 least). There were certain chief complaints on the list (the only one I recall was dental pain), and, if the provider decided to invoke it, the provider would go into the room, do a focused exam for life threats (lungs, heart, vital signs, brief neuro), and, if no obvious life threats were found, told the patients that a financial counselor would be coming in to speak with them. If the patients wanted to be seen, they had to pony up (I think) $150 up front, although I thought it was $25 (so I'm not sure), and people still balked. If they had MedicAid, it didn't apply.

I'm pretty amenable to a (single) dose of Dilaudid IM in the ED, but nothing to go. We had a woman who was coming in every day - every single day - out here, but, once the line was drawn to stop the narcs, they were - but she still kept coming in - for a GI cocktail. EVERY DAY. Taking the bus from her house - 5 miles away - for a GI cocktail.
 
I will restate my solution due to its popularity:
Charge $1 for parking.

This won't, of course, stop your frequent fliers who take the bus. Or the private bus with flashing lights. For toe pain.
 
We have a policy as an ER group to not give IV narcotics, or multiple refills for narcotic prescriptions.

It doesn't work because some of my colleagues prefer not to fight with them. Their view is if they give them a dilaudid high, they can get them out of the department faster.

The good thing about our policy is that anyone labeled with a diagnosis "chronic pain with pain contract" will not get a Press-Ganey survey from the hospital.
 
The good thing about our policy is that anyone labeled with a diagnosis "chronic pain with pain contract" will not get a Press-Ganey survey from the hospital.

That's awsome. We have no such deal.

One thing that I have started doing is formally entering my suspicions about drug seekers in the medical record. It seems like most admitting docs won't do this. In my environment we use Tsheets in the ED so even if someone writes it down unless you're willing to go into the program that lets you look at images of the poorly legible documents you won't know that anyone else had similar problems in the past. I have started dictating notes that are then transcribed and put into the main system where we can see records. I only do this for people who I have seen many timesand know well or people who I have caught in lies about their prescription histories or on people who I have been contacted by the state pharm board and told that they are doctor shopping and/or forging prescriptions.
 
That's awsome. We have no such deal.

One thing that I have started doing is formally entering my suspicions about drug seekers in the medical record. It seems like most admitting docs won't do this. In my environment we use Tsheets in the ED so even if someone writes it down unless you're willing to go into the program that lets you look at images of the poorly legible documents you won't know that anyone else had similar problems in the past. I have started dictating notes that are then transcribed and put into the main system where we can see records. I only do this for people who I have seen many timesand know well or people who I have caught in lies about their prescription histories or on people who I have been contacted by the state pharm board and told that they are doctor shopping and/or forging prescriptions.

When the hospital stated that they wanted to tie our pay to Press-Ganey (we now get "bonuses"), one of the negotiating points was that we did not want to have to give narcotics to all the seekers in order to get good "patient satisfaction" numbers. I was quite suprised when they agreed to this particular demand.
 
I have done the "1mg hydromorphone in 250ml over 20 minutes" and i have SEEN people trying to figure out how to adjust the rate and i explain to them that their behaviour is "suspicious for concerning opiate addiction" and i document that in the chart, as well as their response (varying from denial to most recently "go f*** yourself, i dont have a problem"...) and ensure that other colleagues realize that some repeat offenders are getting out of hand.

As for the nonopiate flyers... we still have a guy who shows up MINIMUM of 4 times a week for the past 6 years... some 40 odd volumes of charts... everything from chest pain, dizziness, his pseudoseizure disorder, etc etc etc...

copay... thats all i can say...
 
The good thing about our policy is that anyone labeled with a diagnosis "chronic pain with pain contract" will not get a Press-Ganey survey from the hospital.

You've just defined "pay for performance nirvana". I SO have to bring this up at our next group meeting.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Admit it. You just had this discussion last shift.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m64cy1MMPg[/YOUTUBE]

Take care,
Jeff
 
Why can't you use alprazolam for seizures, when diazepam and lorazepam works wonders? Anybody know?
 
I will restate my solution due to its popularity:
Charge $1 for parking.

This won't, of course, stop your frequent fliers who take the bus. Or the private bus with flashing lights. For toe pain.

Here in Hawai'i, we're privileged to have something that has won the award for "Best public transit system in the US" - twice. People don't need to call 911 - they just wait for TheBUS.
 
Admit it. You just had this discussion last shift.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m64cy1MMPg[/YOUTUBE]

Take care,
Jeff

Wow...I'm pretty sure I just peed my pants. :laugh: "Employment!!"
 
I work in a rural area. I don't see a lot of illicit drugs, but prescription drug abuse is rampant.

For patients with multiple visits for pain complaints, I tend to give Toradol and/or Ultram - I have no problems saying no to narcs. For migraines, I give Compazine and Benadryl, +/- Toradol. If that doesn't work, I will give one round of Dilaudid IM prior to discharge, unless they have numerous visits or claim allergies to multiple non-narcotic meds. In those cases, I will not give narcotics. For non-emergent back pain (i.e., almost all back pain), I give toradol IM, Flexeril, and discharge with prescription for Ultram and Flexeril. For dental pain, I will not give narcotics unless there is an objective finding such as facial swelling. Cavities don't count as an objective finding, as all of my patients have those.

I frequently find myself saying:

- "Is there a non-narcotic pain medication I can offer you today?"

- "This is your 25th visit to the ER this year, so I think this is a chronic, not acute, pain issue. You would be better served by a chronic pain specialist. I'm more of an acute pain specialist."

- "This pattern of medication allergies is often seen in patients with prescription drug abuse issues. I understand that you may not be one of those patients, but as a matter of policy, I don't give narcotics in cases like this."

- Patients who bring in a copy of their MRI report from 6 months ago as proof of disk disease requiring narcotics in fact require management by a chronic pain specialist and prompt discharge by me.

- I like the idea of treating patients with a Dilaudid drip.

- In residency, I found myself giving multiple rounds of narcotic pain meds for things like back pain or migraine. Now that I'm out on my own, I often give one (or occasionally two) round of meds - often non-narcotic - and promptly discharge the patient.

- For patients with no prior visits, a non-concerning allergy profile, and those with OBJECTIVE painful complaints, I have no problem doling out the narcs - both in the ED and via prescription. I'll consider narcs for a swollen sprained ankle, a laceration, an abscess, or a corneal abrasion.

- I find lectures by pain management experts such as Jim Ducharme interesting, if somewhat self-righteous, but would take them a lot better if they were accompanied by an admission that prescription drug abuse - and abuse of our overcrowded EDs - is RAMPANT.

Fortunately, my compensation is not tied to Press-Gainey scores. If it were, I would definitely want some way to exclude drug seekers from the mix. I work in a group in which everyone does what they want, and several of my collegues are loose with the Demerol, so the seekers keep coming despite my efforts to stem the tide.
 
Thanks Jarabacoa for the article. That does help, but the article I was looking for was one departments description of how they came up with their chronic pain policy. It was in one of those monthly newspapers like EPM that most of us get. I can't seem to find it.
 
NO People need to get used to it... NO

Its easy enough...but you HAVE to have your department issue the statement across the board (i.e. if you partner is giving dilaudid for migraines you can't change anything until you change their practice style).

I ask when the last time is that they saw their doctor or ANY DOCTOR ANYWHERE for ANYTHING. If they lie right off the bat, then you at least have an out without them being totally PO'd.

I then take in their narcotic list from the North Carolina drug database (every Rx for a narcotic that has ever been filled in NC), and I tally it up for them. "Mr X, we've got a small problem, you said that you hadn't seen a MD in over 4 months, but you've got 17 scripts for a total of 380 tablets of multiple narcotics from 15 different physicians over the last month...."

This usually ends with me saying that we'll gladly see you for any medical problems at any time, but unfortunately we can no longer give you narcotics for your pain as its a chronic problem, not an emergency.

The drug database is great as it doesn't matter if the hospital down the street is part of your system or not, it'll pull up their Rx.

My favorite was my partner who laid the smack down on a druggie with the following....

"Mr. Smith, you've had over 1000 tablets of percocet prescribed to you over 2 months, and you've told me your out of your pain meds.....so, I'm going to leave this room and make two phone calls."
"The first is to Toxocology as you have enough acetaminophen to kill a small whale, and the second is to the police, as you are clearly alive, so I must assume that you are selling your pills." .....the patient promptly left.
 
that video was a whole new level of awesome.

One trick I learned in my rural America ED this month is giving them some Reglan if you want them to leave. I had no idea it worked so well!
 
That video is the funniest thing I've seen on SDN in a long time. How long did it take to make?

Ya got me, I didn't do it (I wish I could claim credit). I saw it as a link on a friend's Facebook page.

Great stuff, though.

Take care,
Jeff
 
Admit it. You just had this discussion last shift.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m64cy1MMPg[/YOUTUBE]

Take care,
Jeff
I admit it. I totally had this discussion tonight. At least the video made the pain so much less. 🤣 Thanks for that, Jeff.

:horns:
 
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