From 4th year Med student, MCAT score does not =STEP scores!

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reedsposer22

reedsposer22

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I have seen alot of posts on here about MCAT scores and USMLE STEP scores, so I thought I would give me 2 cents:

I am a 4th year about to graduate med school. I remember DISTINCTLY freaking out upon entering medical school and thinking I will never get over 200 on these legendary brutal STEP exams. Why?

Because my MCAT score was not stellar. I got a 29N. Nothing special, nothing horrid, pretty much average or below. I was terrified that I would not pass the USMLE STEP exams in medical school.

Well good news for you out there that are worried that low MCAT means low STEP scores. I did good on both STEP1 and STEP 2. I am not attempting to brag by posting my scores, I simply want you to know that it does NOT correlate AT ALL. The STEP exams in medical school are MUCH different, not easier, but much different.

MCAT: 29
STEP 1: 239
STEP2: 249

(All my scores end in a 9. Should I tell residency people I am in the Triple 9 society? If you get that reference from previous posts in this forum, you are awesome!!)

Also, Check out my Blog for another pressing issue in medical school, the DEBT:
http://rushrussian.blogspot.com/
 
Life's like a penis :laugh:

Excellent job on your scores though. Compared to your other peers, how much time and effort did you put into your studying?
 
amazing tekkers said:
Life's like a penis :laugh:

Excellent job on your scores though. Compared to your other peers, how much time and effort did you put into your studying?
Click to expand...

Tekkers thank you and lol, life is truly like a PEN15.

About the studying, you know, I am not sure, I think we all studied HARD. About 1 month of study, 10-15 hour/ day.

Question for you, maybe we can PM, but are you in Minneapolis now? I am hoping to get my residency at U of Minn. It's my number spot, love the twin cities, I did an away ER rotation at Hennepin County, amazing place. I may need help looking for places to live. Message me please!
 
From your blog it seems like you're interested in pathology. May I ask why pathology? With your scores it looks like you have fairly decent options. Are you not worried about the job market for pathologists?
 
Average MCAT score is a 25; a 29 is the 72nd percentile

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/361080/data/combined13.pdf.pdf

Average USMLE score is a 227, with a SD of 22, so a 239 would again be about...70th-75th percentile.


Now granted the USMLE test taking pool is skewed compared to the MCAT test taking pool (i.e. the poor performers on the MCAT likely never make it to med school).
 
reedsposer22 said:
MCAT: 29
STEP 1: 239
STEP2: 249

(All my scores end in a 9. Should I tell residency people I am in the Triple 9 society?
Click to expand...
"Tell," yes, for friends who'll get the joke. Enter on the ERAS application? No. (Sorry) :nono:
for you out there that are worried that low MCAT means low STEP scores. I did good on both STEP1 and STEP 2.
Click to expand...
I have also observed some who struggled on the MCAT, even a few times, do very well on the Steps.
 
What I have seen is some very old data (USMLE from 10+ years ago) showing poor MCAT performance is a strong risk factor for flunking out of med school and poor Step I performance.

Other than that, at least at my school, I haven't seen any data that shows a correlation between the two tests. Unfortunately, the paper I cite above is taken as gospel at my school.

If my learned colleague has some more recent data, I'd be grateful to see it!

LizzyM said:
On a population basis, there is a correlation between MCAT and Step 1. Less so or Step 2. There may be outliers and yes, you too may be an outlier, but the correlation is strong.
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Goro said:
What I have seen is some very old data (USMLE from 10+ years ago) showing poor MCAT performance is a strong risk factor for flunking out of med school and poor Step I performance.

Other than that, at least at my school, I haven't seen any data that shows a correlation between the two tests. Unfortunately, the paper I cite above is taken as gospel at my school.

If my learned colleague has some more recent data, I'd be grateful to see it!
Click to expand...

Check this out.. look at slide 15. Granted, it is data from one school but it does show a statistially significant correlation between MCAT and Step 1. Do note that the correlation between performance in M1 an M2 is a stronger correlate with Step 1.
https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Are Questions the Answer PPT 11-6-12 10PM.pdf
 
The MCAT is a difficult standardized test, step 1 is a difficult standardized test. It would probably be unlikely for someone who tried hard and got a 20-25 MCAT to blow step 1 out of the water. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.
 
thesauce said:
I've seen the opposite as well. 39 MCAT barely break 200 on step 1. These are very different tests.
Click to expand...

They don't test the same thing.... you can't rest on your laurels and expect that because you did well on the MCAT that you'll do well on the Step 1 without any effort.

I also suspect that people who put in plenty of time week after week with M1 and M2 don't need that much more for Step 1 compared with folks who just skated by in their classes.
 
LizzyM said:
Check this out.. look at slide 15. Granted, it is data from one school but it does show a statistially significant correlation between MCAT and Step 1. Do note that the correlation between performance in M1 an M2 is a stronger correlate with Step 1.
https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Are Questions the Answer PPT 11-6-12 10PM.pdf
Click to expand...

Interesting that hours studied has no (negative) correlation with score. Number of questions completed correlates almost as strongly to your scores as your mcat does.
 
Medstart108 said:
They say that VR is the most correlated with medical school performance.
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No it's bio. I read an article that it was in this order: bio>phys>verbal

Who knows. But verbal doesn't require outside knowledge. On the Usmle I bet you need outside knowledge lol
 
LizzyM said:
I also suspect that people who put in plenty of time week after week with M1 and M2 don't need that much more for Step 1 compared with folks who just skated by in their classes.
Click to expand...
TreadLightly said:
Interesting that hours studied has no (negative) correlation with score. Number of questions completed correlates almost as strongly to your scores as your mcat does.
Click to expand...

So putting these two together, do well in classes along with board review materials and spend the majority of the last month (4-6 weeks of free time usually given in medical school) before the Step 1 on practice questions?
 
LizzyM said:
Check this out.. look at slide 15. Granted, it is data from one school but it does show a statistially significant correlation between MCAT and Step 1. Do note that the correlation between performance in M1 an M2 is a stronger correlate with Step 1.
https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Are Questions the Answer PPT 11-6-12 10PM.pdf
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's a misinterpretation of the data. The Pearson correlation is .328, which is a measure of how strong of a linear relationship these two continuous variables have. The p-value determines how reliable the correlation is. If there would've been an n=5, I'm sure that the p-value would have been extremely high. An r=.328 actually shows a weak relationship and the p-value states that this result is pretty reliable. Although you already stated this, it's difficult to extrapolate this data for the entire nation.

I haven't really read the meta-analysis report in depth but the only result that I think seems to support this hypothesis is their MCAT total and Step 1 which had an r=.66; which they call large predictive but many studies would say that this is moderate at best.

Correlations also don't truly demonstrate causations and there are also a myriad of variables that are unaccounted for. I think it would be interesting to actually see the data and analysis.
 
LizzyM said:
On a population basis, there is a correlation between MCAT and Step 1. Less so on Step 2. There may be outliers and yes, you too may be an outlier, but the correlation is strong.
Click to expand...
Now what about for people who weren't very well rounded? I only got a 7 on verbal, but overall 31... :/
 
moisne said:
Now what about for people who weren't very well rounded? I only got a 7 on verbal, but overall 31... :/
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There have been studies that break it down per category and others that look at the MCAT total. Your a good example of a confound and why some of these studies are probably not that great or accurate unless they shy away from making broad generalizations.
 
Sophocles said:
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that's a misinterpretation of the data. The Pearson correlation is .328, which is a measure of how strong of a linear relationship these two continuous variables have. The p-value determines how reliable the correlation is. If there would've been an n=5, I'm sure that the p-value would have been extremely high. An r=.328 actually shows a weak relationship and the p-value states that this result is pretty reliable. Although you already stated this, it's difficult to extrapolate this data for the entire nation.

I haven't really read the meta-analysis report in depth but the only result that I think seems to support this hypothesis is their MCAT total and Step 1 which had an r=.66; which they call large predictive but many studies would say that this is moderate at best.

Correlations also don't truly demonstrate causations and there are also a myriad of variables that are unaccounted for. I think it would be interesting to actually see the data and analysis.
Click to expand...
While the correlation itself is not strong, evidence that a correlation exists is strong (insofar as one can assume that the study in qestion is representative). I think this was the point LizzyM was getting at. You've obviously come to the same conclusion, but if I'm remember the pearson test correctly, it is a paired test which should account for most variables that are specific to each individual. Perhaps I've mixed that up, but ultimately the goal of finding a correlation using paired data is to remove the confounding variables. The study goes on to test those variables which are not accounted for by pairing. This still leaves a ton of potentially extraneous circumstances (outliers), but at the very least I think we agree that there are a lot of influences that likely make this discussion more complex than a simple correlation of test scores.
 
moisne said:
Now what about for people who weren't very well rounded? I only got a 7 on verbal, but overall 31... :/
Click to expand...

I scored the same on VR.

On a side note, I personally know an FMG who scored well on the USMLE matched EM last year. He would probably do better on the MCAT VR by blindly guessing than if he were to actually fish for the correct answer.

If a correlation exists, it may be for the BS section.
 
There are some studies that show VR has the greatest correlation and others that show BS has the greatest correlation. Maybe we'll never know.

I think VR is the only one that had any significant correlation with STEP 2/3 though.
 
msquaredb said:
What is the fundamental difference between Step 1 and the MCAT? Obviously, one tests undergrad material and the other tests med school material, but is a substantial difference in test style? Does one test application of concepts more versus memorization/regurgitation? Just curious.
Click to expand...

My take on the two tests from when I was in the thick of step 1:

The MCAT requires having some minimal baseline knowledge and great test-taking skills. It's kind of like taking an addition test against a bunch of 12th graders. Who's going to win? You know addition and they know addition. It's anybody's game. The better test-takers (those that are faster and making fewer mistakes) come out on top.

Step 1 is kind of the opposite. It requires some minimal baseline test-taking ability and a far greater knowledge-base. The (majority of the) questions are very clear about what they're asking and you either know it or you don't.
 
n=1

This thread is literally the equivalent of a 5'7" guy (my height) coming in and saying they rock at basketball. OK, word. Its clearly possible. But the correlation that taller people are better at basketball still exists. Same for MCAT & USMLE.
 
Took a few practice exams before completing Orgo and Physics (just read the material out the review books) Scored a 32, 26 and 31. Well
 
Last edited:
masaraksh said:
n=1

This thread is literally the equivalent of a 5'7" guy (my height) coming in and saying they rock at basketball. OK, word. Its clearly possible. But the correlation that taller people are better at basketball still exists. Same for MCAT & USMLE.
Click to expand...

If you look at the link LizzyM posted, MCAT and USMLE are barely correlated (idk what "pearson correlation" is, but if it's anything like r then 0.328 is extremely weak). If you just look at the graph logically, no matter what metric you use to analyze, the correlation is super weak
 
moisne said:
Now what about for people who weren't very well rounded? I only got a 7 on verbal, but overall 31... :/
Click to expand...

I scored 7/8, but 93%ile on step 1 and 96%ile on step 2. Studied 2mo for step 1 and 1mo for step 2. Its about how much time you put into studying for the test, but I literally read exam krackers once and took the MCAT. No practice Q's...yolo.
 
thesauce said:
My take on the two tests from when I was in the thick of step 1:

The MCAT requires having some minimal baseline knowledge and great test-taking skills. It's kind of like taking an addition test against a bunch of 12th graders. Who's going to win? You know addition and they know addition. It's anybody's game. The better test-takers (those that are faster and making fewer mistakes) come out on top.

Step 1 is kind of the opposite. It requires some minimal baseline test-taking ability and a far greater knowledge-base. The (majority of the) questions are very clear about what they're asking and you either know it or you don't.
Click to expand...

So basically, step 1 questions are like biology free-standing questions that often require multiple steps to get to an answer? I know I didn't do too well on SAT and MCAT, and it is somewhat encouraging to hear the board exams are entirely different.
 
Lya said:
So basically, step 1 questions are like biology free-standing questions that often require multiple steps to get to an answer? I know I didn't do too well on SAT and MCAT, and it is somewhat encouraging to hear the board exams are entirely different.
Click to expand...
Google "step 1 example questions" - I did and got a bit stressed out from that haha! - pre med
 
moisne said:
Google "step 1 example questions" - I did and got a bit stressed out from that haha! - pre med
Click to expand...

They are far less intimidating once you understand the vocabulary and become familiar with what certain phrases mean. That really is the purpose of the first 2 years of med school: learning the vocabulary, becoming comfortable with it, and understanding what certain specific terms and descriptions of things mean and suggest. There's obviously some thinking involved in there too, but third year is when you really start to apply that information to actual patient care.
 
southernIM said:
Average MCAT score is a 25; a 29 is the 72nd percentile

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/361080/data/combined13.pdf.pdf

Average USMLE score is a 227, with a SD of 22, so a 239 would again be about...70th-75th percentile.


Now granted the USMLE test taking pool is skewed compared to the MCAT test taking pool (i.e. the poor performers on the MCAT likely never make it to med school).
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thinking, was just looking through the thread to be sure no one posted it first. Both scores are moderately above average for all test-takers. I don't think this single anecdote is enough evidence to say anything, but if I was forced to make a sweeping generalization, I'd say it suggests a correlation more than it doesn't.
 
sourdoughllama said:
If you look at the link LizzyM posted, MCAT and USMLE are barely correlated (idk what "pearson correlation" is, but if it's anything like r then 0.328 is extremely weak). If you just look at the graph logically, no matter what metric you use to analyze, the correlation is super weak
Click to expand...

If there were no correlation, the pearson correlation would be 0.0. There is a correlation. Perhaps it is not strong but it is not zero.
 
Without looking at the data and just looking at the subject of the thread, this is true. I've seen too many people who kicked butt on the MCAT (34+) do average or slightly below average on Step 1 simply because they put in no effort into the first two years of medical school. Regardless of the data, everyone should remember that the clock starts over in medical school.
 
LizzyM said:
If there were no correlation, the pearson correlation would be 0.0. There is a correlation. Perhaps it is not strong but it is not zero.
Click to expand...

Thas what I said lol.

Edit: besides, if it weren't for those two people who f*cked up the MCAT and USMLE so badly the correlation would be even less
 
sourdoughllama said:
If you look at the link LizzyM posted, MCAT and USMLE are barely correlated (idk what "pearson correlation" is, but if it's anything like r then 0.328 is extremely weak). If you just look at the graph logically, no matter what metric you use to analyze, the correlation is super weak
Click to expand...

The pearson correlation is just the regular old correlation everyone is used to seeing. 0.328 is also pretty strong for something as diverse as test scores. It's really the p value that matters anyways. Very rarely will you see pearson correlations above that unless you're in engineering where everything is more controlled.
 
Lya said:
So putting these two together, do well in classes along with board review materials and spend the majority of the last month (4-6 weeks of free time usually given in medical school) before the Step 1 on practice questions?
Click to expand...

Yes. That is what I did. 1 month of practice qs along with Kaplan videos. Use Uworld.
 
SunsFun said:
From your blog it seems like you're interested in pathology. May I ask why pathology? With your scores it looks like you have fairly decent options. Are you not worried about the job market for pathologists?
Click to expand...

The job market being closed for pathology is an Internet myth propagated by I have no idea. There are jobs, but it is a field where jobs come via networking. Every Fellow graduating from programs I visited has jobs lined up.

It is the BEST specialty. I can assure you. I switched VERY late (after applying for another specialty) but I realized this is where I need to be.
 
moisne said:
Google "step 1 example questions" - I did and got a bit stressed out from that haha! - pre med
Click to expand...

I remember googling step 1 questions as I before I started Med School in 2010. I FREAKED just trying to read through the question. I thought there was no way to pass that exam. Once you are a 2nd year, it's nothing to read the question.
 
MCAT is a thinking man's test. You only need to know 300-500 facts for the MCAT to be golden, the rest comes down to reading comprehension and interpretations (eg here's a graph, what does it mean).

Step 1 tests something like 15,000 facts. On top of that, you have to be able to integrate different disciplines together. IMO, Step 1 is the "easier" test, but it requires much more work than the MCAT. At a certain point, you won't be able to score better on the MCAT, even if you have all your prep books with you. If you have FA with you during Step 1, you could probably score 250-260.
 
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