From a DO perspective why is all these new schools a good thing?

[McDreamy123]

Hi everyone, with several new DO programs either recently opening or coming up the pipeline I was wondering how is this good for DO's? I view it as a negative thing because these programs oftentimes are for profit, have lower standards, and kind of reek of offshore school vibes. The established DO programs have high standards, good clinical rotations, and high board pass rates.

With the merger of residencies I can't help but think this hurts DO's. Spots aren't expanding...several AOA residencies will be forced to close as they don't meet LCME standards. So DO's lose access to former exclusive DO residencies, and I don't think residencies that formerly heavily favored or exclusively took MD's are going to suddenly change just because of the merger. As an example NYU flat out states they don't take DO's to this day. (crazy)

Also the new DO programs often have lower admission standards, accept MCATS below 50th percentile, 3.3-3.4 GPA's WITH grade replacement etc. With grade replacement going away the stats for DO schools will unquestionably drop--because the applicant pool won't just suddenly change. To PD's this may worsen or maintain the DO bias where is still exists, because lets face it as long as a difference in stats exist between MD and DO there will be a stigma. Once they have equivalent stats this stigma will go away..and perhaps MD and DO will be what DMD and DDS in dentistry is....the same! Because MD and DO's 99% practice the same, take the same boards, so they should be equivalent.

I have seen several posts on here and reddit about people being really happy about new DO programs opening from current DO students, so I am wondering why? Not trying to start uncivil conversation...just want to hear input from current DO students.

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[IslandStyle808]

This question has been asked multiple times and all those conclusion you have stated have also been mentioned. The question should be more "why does COCA think its a good thing, besides the mulla?"

 

[Brorthopedic]

mo' money mo' problems

 

[Hadoken92]

As bad as this sounds, it isn't a problem for current medical students as this shortage of spots won't really affect them, so I don't worry too much about it.

What's going to end up happening is DO schools will become more like Caribbean MDs and in the long run, it's going to affect incoming students. I imagine some schools will be forced to close as they won't be able to fill their class in residencies, or they'll just graduate unmatched doctors.

 

[GUH]

Hi everyone, with several new DO programs either recently opening or coming up the pipeline I was wondering how is this good for DO's? I view it as a negative thing because these programs oftentimes are for profit, have lower standards, and kind of reek of offshore school vibes. The established DO programs have high standards, good clinical rotations, and high board pass rates.

With the merger of residencies I can't help but think this hurts DO's. Spots aren't expanding...several AOA residencies will be forced to close as they don't meet LCME standards. So DO's lose access to former exclusive DO residencies, and I don't think residencies that formerly heavily favored or exclusively took MD's are going to suddenly change just because of the merger. As an example NYU flat out states they don't take DO's to this day. (crazy)

I don't think NYU explicitly states this anymore, but you're right that the GME takeover did not magically open the floodgates to previously MD-only programs like some DOs had hoped.

Also the new DO programs often have lower admission standards, accept MCATS below 50th percentile, 3.3-3.4 GPA's WITH grade replacement etc. With grade replacement going away the stats for DO schools will unquestionably drop--because the applicant pool won't just suddenly change. To PD's this may worsen or maintain the DO bias where is still exists, because lets face it as long as a difference in stats exist between MD and DO there will be a stigma. Once they have equivalent stats this stigma will go away..and perhaps MD and DO will be what DMD and DDS in dentistry is....the same! Because MD and DO's 99% practice the same, take the same boards, so they should be equivalent.

It's pretty naive to assume that if the average premedical GPA among osteopathic medical school matriculants increases, that would automatically change the minds of residency program directors who previously didn't take DOs. Likewise, it's unlikely that a drop in the premedical GPA will discourage PDs who would have otherwise accepted DOs into their programs. Have you ever heard of a program director who said that he cares about what anyone's premedical GPA was? I haven't.

I have seen several posts on here and reddit about people being really happy about new DO programs opening from current DO students, so I am wondering why? Not trying to start uncivil conversation...just want to hear input from current DO students.

Can you quote some of these posts? Most DO students I've talked to (and definitely most on SDN) think that we have been expanding DO school spots too quickly. However, some of us think that some expansion can be good if the school is in an area that is not over-saturated with other medical schools, is likely to have enough reasonably solid clinical rotation spots, is affiliated with an existing university, and is willing and able to help set up residency programs with reasonable numbers of positions (or at least has most of these things). What most of us oppose is free-standing DO schools in areas with too many medical students already that have little to no hospital affiliations and class sizes of 150+ per year. I haven't been following the new schools very much recently but I think there are some new schools that fall into each category.

 

[GUH]

As bad as this sounds, it isn't a problem for current medical students as this shortage of spots won't really affect them, so I don't worry too much about it.

What's going to end up happening is DO schools will become more like Caribbean MDs and in the long run, it's going to affect incoming students. I imagine some schools will be forced to close as they won't be able to fill their class in residencies, or they'll just graduate unmatched doctors.

If that is going to be a problem, it will be a long way off since there are still many spots each year that go to IMGs.
This is the current relevant COCA standard for GME placement:

8.3 The COM must develop a retrospective GME Accountability Report based on information reported by the COM on the AACOM Annual Report demonstrating that the COM’s mission and objectives are being met. The methods used to develop the report must be fully described and documented. The report must demonstrate the number of graduates entering GME, the positions available in the COM’s affiliated OPTI, the historic percentage of match participation (AOA, NRMP, military, etc.), final placement, the number/percentage of eligible students unsuccessful in the matches, and the residency choices of its graduates.
Guideline: COMs should strive to place 100% of their graduates into GME programs and devote the necessary resources to obtain that goal.

I agree that the goal should be 100%, but I think that there should be a set minimum percentage below which a school may be placed on probation or have its accreditation revoked.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Three things: A, no one here says it's a good thing. Two, the idea that it is the disparity in acceptance stats that perpetuates the stigma is false, it has more to do with clinical education deficits and just plain old bias for the letters, and D, we live on the most boring street in the whole United States of America, where nothing even remotely dangerous will ever happen. Period.

I will be proud of anyone who can get that movie reference without googling it.

 

[Candidate2017]

With the merger of residencies I can't help but think this hurts DO's. Spots aren't expanding...several AOA residencies will be forced to close as they don't meet LCME standards. So DO's lose access to former exclusive DO residencies, and I don't think residencies that formerly heavily favored or exclusively took MD's are going to suddenly change just because of the merger.

There are thousands of ACGME residency spots that can still be filled by MDs and DOs. Currently IMGs fill some of the gap. The purpose of DO expansion is to collect money while pushing out IMGs. See Darwinism and R vs K selected species. DOs won't lose access to former AOA residencies because they will still favor DOs.

I have seen several posts on here and reddit about people being really happy about new DO programs opening from current DO students, so I am wondering why? Not trying to start uncivil conversation...just want to hear input from current DO students.

Because in a democracy the power of sheer numbers conveys legitimacy. There more DOs we pump out the more normalized DO will become. The history of DO is like illegal immigrants going from a marginalized trickle to a flood of labor for low paying jobs no one wants to do (primary care) and eventually gaining acceptance from most but not all people.

Legal immigrants used to vastly outnumbered illegal immigrants. Now illegal immigration is the norm and illegal immigrants turn into undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants receive public education, medicaid, drivers licenses, student loans, mortgages, amnesty and possibly legal status. The line between illegal and legal immigrants becomes blurred just like the line between DO and MD in places and specialties where DOs are non-trivial minorities.

 

[Goro]

The bolded remains to be seen. My own notion is an osmotic process will occur. The first part of your sentence is mere cynicism. The AOA religiously believes that "More DOs good"

The purpose of DO expansion is to collect money while pushing out IMGs. See Darwinism and R vs K selected species. DOs won't lose access to former AOA residencies because they will still favor DOs.


In your analogy, you forgot to mention that DOs don't pick avocados for $2/hr or clean hotel rooms. Come up with a better analogy. Plenty of MDs do Primary Care. It's only among pre-meds that PC is the 7th Circle of Hell.

Because in a democracy the power of sheer numbers conveys legitimacy. There more DOs we pump out the more normalized DO will become. The history of DO is like illegal immigrants going from a marginalized trickle to a flood of labor for low paying jobs no one wants to do (primary care) and eventually gaining acceptance from most but not all people.

Legal immigrants used to vastly outnumbered illegal immigrants. Now illegal immigration is the norm and illegal immigrants turn into undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants receive public education, medicaid, drivers licenses, student loans, mortgages, amnesty and possibly legal status. The line between illegal and legal immigrants becomes blurred just like the line between DO and MD in places and specialties where DOs are non-trivial minorities.[/QUOTE]

 

[NontradCA]

The bolded remains to be seen. My own notion is an osmotic process will occur. The first part of your sentence is mere cynicism. The AOA religiously believes that "More DOs good"

The purpose of DO expansion is to collect money while pushing out IMGs. See Darwinism and R vs K selected species. DOs won't lose access to former AOA residencies because they will still favor DOs.


In your analogy, you forgot to mention that DOs don't pick avocados for $2/hr or clean hotel rooms. Come up with a better analogy. Plenty of MDs do Primary Care. It's only among pre-meds that PC is the 7th Circle of Hell.

Because in a democracy the power of sheer numbers conveys legitimacy. There more DOs we pump out the more normalized DO will become. The history of DO is like illegal immigrants going from a marginalized trickle to a flood of labor for low paying jobs no one wants to do (primary care) and eventually gaining acceptance from most but not all people.

Legal immigrants used to vastly outnumbered illegal immigrants. Now illegal immigration is the norm and illegal immigrants turn into undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants receive public education, medicaid, drivers licenses, student loans, mortgages, amnesty and possibly legal status. The line between illegal and legal immigrants becomes blurred just like the line between DO and MD in places and specialties where DOs are non-trivial minorities.

It is amongst most med students as well. Mainly because of the huge egos that go into medicine that are shaken at the thought of doing something of such little prestige.

Primary Care is really chill though, and can be whatever the clinician makes it from what I've seen. I agree that analogy is of poor taste, and comes off incredibly ridiculous and naive. It's just an example of what I said above. The ego on this guy to talk of the life of an illegal immigrant, as if he knows what struggling means.

So pathetic: "I had to retake 6 classes in college and an MCAT and all I have is this loaf and bread and worthless DO degree to show for it. #suffering"

 

[NontradCA]

Also inb4 my mommy is an illegal.

 

[Nietzsche's Barber]

D, we live on the most boring street in the whole United States of America, where nothing even remotely dangerous will ever happen. Period.

I will be proud of anyone who can get that movie reference without googling it.

I wonder what Buzz is doing nowadays...Tarantula farm?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I wonder what Buzz is doing nowadays...Tarantula farm?

I am impressed haha. My wife made me watch it a little bit ago and for some reason this part made me laugh pretty hard.

 

[Mad Jack]

They aren't, they aren't, and they never will be "good things."

 

[Dr. Death]

More members of the AOA paying membership fees. More people paying to take COMLEX. More people paying tuition at DO schools, the money flows all the way up.

 

[68PGunner]

MORE PCP DOs, brah... It's a good thing bc our holistic education will make us better docs.

 

[Mr Roboto]

I am impressed haha. My wife made me watch it a little bit ago and for some reason this part made me laugh pretty hard.

You underestimate how much my gf loves Christmas movies, and makes me watch them every year.

 

[LutGholein]

Because in a democracy the power of sheer numbers conveys legitimacy. There more DOs we pump out the more normalized DO will become. The history of DO is like illegal immigrants going from a marginalized trickle to a flood of labor for low paying jobs no one wants to do (primary care) and eventually gaining acceptance from most but not all people.

Legal immigrants used to vastly outnumbered illegal immigrants. Now illegal immigration is the norm and illegal immigrants turn into undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants receive public education, medicaid, drivers licenses, student loans, mortgages, amnesty and possibly legal status. The line between illegal and legal immigrants becomes blurred just like the line between DO and MD in places and specialties where DOs are non-trivial minorities.

This is one of the most creative(and deeply distorted and dystopian) analogies I've heard about MD/DO relations. Primary care is a Central California orchard with the sun beating down on those poor folks picking fruit--- it is not a Siberian work camp as @libertyyne visualized--but you're close!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Bro, your wife MADE you watch home alone? That movie is ridiculously awesome. Maybe I'm immature, or it is the inner pediatrician coming out of me, but I love that movie and pretty much all kid movies.

Kudos to your wife. That being said, I am deeply sorry if she forces you watch any home alone after numero dos. Cause dat **** is wack.

Haha no I love that movie too, just not in February after watching it about 5+ times in December. I agree it is one of the all time great kid Christmas movies though.

 

[Candidate2017]

The bolded remains to be seen. My own notion is an osmotic process will occur. The first part of your sentence is mere cynicism. The AOA religiously believes that "More DOs good"

The purpose of DO expansion is to collect money while pushing out IMGs. See Darwinism and R vs K selected species. DOs won't lose access to former AOA residencies because they will still favor DOs.


In your analogy, you forgot to mention that DOs don't pick avocados for $2/hr or clean hotel rooms. Come up with a better analogy. Plenty of MDs do Primary Care. It's only among pre-meds that PC is the 7th Circle of Hell.

DOs aren't losing access to former AOA spots. I've spoken to many osteopathic programs directors. Have you?

Ain't no shame in being an illegal migrant working in the fields of primary care with the hot sun beating down. Checking diabetic feet, doing rectals and paps. It's all relative. THat $2/hour is amazing money that what can be earned back home (actually closer to $20/hr for unionized housekeepers) without dodging random narco violence. $200k for 4.5 day work week after a 3 year residency isn't bad for doing a job MDs look down upon.

Yes, we are illegals. It was just a few months ago that DOs were banned from testifying in court because they were not "physicians" as defined by some state I don't remember. Look it up.

 

[Goro]

A very close friend of mine is an AOA residency director. As soon as their paperwork is finished, they expect MDs in their program.

It's not going to be an all or nothing thing

DOs aren't losing access to former AOA spots. I've spoken to many osteopathic programs directors. Have you?

Ain't no shame in being an illegal migrant working in the fields of primary care with the hot sun beating down. Checking diabetic feet, doing rectals and paps. It's all relative. THat $2/hour is amazing money that what can be earned back home (actually closer to $20/hr for unionized housekeepers) without dodging random narco violence. $200k for 4.5 day work week after a 3 year residency isn't bad for doing a job MDs look down upon.

Yes, we are illegals. It was just a few months ago that DOs were banned from testifying in court because they were not "physicians" as defined by some state I don't remember. Look it up.

 

[mwsapphire]

The bolded remains to be seen. My own notion is an osmotic process will occur. The first part of your sentence is mere cynicism. The AOA religiously believes that "More DOs good"

The purpose of DO expansion is to collect money while pushing out IMGs. See Darwinism and R vs K selected species. DOs won't lose access to former AOA residencies because they will still favor DOs.


In your analogy, you forgot to mention that DOs don't pick avocados for $2/hr or clean hotel rooms. Come up with a better analogy. Plenty of MDs do Primary Care. It's only among pre-meds that PC is the 7th Circle of Hell.

Because in a democracy the power of sheer numbers conveys legitimacy. There more DOs we pump out the more normalized DO will become. The history of DO is like illegal immigrants going from a marginalized trickle to a flood of labor for low paying jobs no one wants to do (primary care) and eventually gaining acceptance from most but not all people.

Legal immigrants used to vastly outnumbered illegal immigrants. Now illegal immigration is the norm and illegal immigrants turn into undocumented immigrants. Undocumented immigrants receive public education, medicaid, drivers licenses, student loans, mortgages, amnesty and possibly legal status. The line between illegal and legal immigrants becomes blurred just like the line between DO and MD in places and specialties where DOs are non-trivial minorities.

[/QUOTE]
7th circle of hell

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

Hi everyone, with several new DO programs either recently opening or coming up the pipeline I was wondering how is this good for DO's? I view it as a negative thing because these programs oftentimes are for profit, have lower standards, and kind of reek of offshore school vibes. The established DO programs have high standards, good clinical rotations, and high board pass rates.

With the merger of residencies I can't help but think this hurts DO's. Spots aren't expanding...several AOA residencies will be forced to close as they don't meet LCME standards. So DO's lose access to former exclusive DO residencies, and I don't think residencies that formerly heavily favored or exclusively took MD's are going to suddenly change just because of the merger. As an example NYU flat out states they don't take DO's to this day. (crazy)

Also the new DO programs often have lower admission standards, accept MCATS below 50th percentile, 3.3-3.4 GPA's WITH grade replacement etc. With grade replacement going away the stats for DO schools will unquestionably drop--because the applicant pool won't just suddenly change. To PD's this may worsen or maintain the DO bias where is still exists, because lets face it as long as a difference in stats exist between MD and DO there will be a stigma. Once they have equivalent stats this stigma will go away..and perhaps MD and DO will be what DMD and DDS in dentistry is....the same! Because MD and DO's 99% practice the same, take the same boards, so they should be equivalent.

I have seen several posts on here and reddit about people being really happy about new DO programs opening from current DO students, so I am wondering why? Not trying to start uncivil conversation...just want to hear input from current DO students.

Current 4th year student, hopefully (fingers crossed) soon to be resident. This is a correct assessment. There is a large bottleneck effect. More new for profit schools, which are opening with more poor standards and substandard clinical training, as they cannot guarantee rotations to their 3rd and 4th year students (which, believe me is the difference between matching and not matching), in addition to a stagnant and sometimes dwindling number of residency spots (with some AOA programs not meeting accreditation standards) is a recipe for disaster.

Don't listen to the migrant worker analogy guy. Yes, having more of something would generally be perceived as a good thing but you quantity doesn't necessary equate with quality, especially if, lets say, that all of the students at these new schools had horrible clinical rotations. Then, when it comes to audition and do away rotations, they will be less likely to impress given their substandard clinical training. You think this would reflect positively on DOs? We can't become degree mills. That won't solve anything.