From a PD ..Quality students

[TTPHUS]

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This is the response of a program director to an unfair tampa bay article recently posted here that bashed students that went overseas for the first two years of medical education .

Offshore med school under fire | Jan. 1, story
Quality students
I am the director of a very competitive residency training program here in Tampa. We receive almost 1,000 applications a year for 10 slots. We have been very fortunate in being able to select from the cream of the crop from both U.S. medical schools and foreign medical schools. I am proud to relate that more than 15 percent of our graduates or current residents have come to us from Caribbean medical schools, with Ross being a main contributor.
These students were selected for our program because of outstanding board scores, excellent clinical evaluations, personality traits, significant leadership potential, and many other attributes that placed them at the top of our list. Once here, they have demonstrated continued excellence while working long hours in a rigorous environment, and have reliably been among our best physicians.
Students attend medical schools outside the United States for many reasons, and our medical schools fail to accept many applicants who turn out to be more than qualified. There is a lot to be said for a person who has taken this route, knowing that they are at a potential disadvantage, and who has overcome many more obstacles to achieve their goals.
A strong work ethic, persistence, and an overwhelming desire to be a medical doctor are among the best qualities I can think of in any physician that I would want caring for me.
I hope that your article does not have the effect of lumping all Ross students into the category of the few that you describe with negative experiences.
***** P. O'Keefe, M.D., Lutz

 

[Sulfinator]

I wonder what percentage of the 1000 applicants are Carib med students/grads.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Based on this post and your past post on the subject:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9043683&postcount=4

This article if one can call it that is seriously flawed and extremely negatively biased . Ross has graduated almost 10 000 fully licensed doctors in every speciality . Why didnt the author mention this accomplishment ?
Due to the large classes there are bound to be people who do not make it through the process. Choosing a few examples of such people who fail and writing a horrendous article such as this one is extremely unfair . This article is loaded with inaccuracies and straw arguements . Poor writing .

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have some stake in this argument.

As before, I disagree completely. I think the article raises some excellent questions (which I note you are unwilling to respond to directly - rather you just issue blanket statements about them being "unfair")

 

[TTPHUS]

Based on this post and your past post on the subject:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9043683&postcount=4




I'm going to go out on a limb and say you have some stake in this argument.

As before, I disagree completely. I think the article raises some excellent questions (which I note you are unwilling to respond to directly - rather you just issue blanket statements about them being "unfair")

I'm not going to address anything . Here the president responded ..here is his response . While you are reading his response , you may as well get off your high horse and appreciate the fact that were it not for ross grads , primary care in the us would be in far worse shape .



St. Petersburg Times Letter to the Editor


The following Letter to the Editor was submitted by Ross University and published in the St. Petersburg Times on January 9, 2010:

Many Success Stories

In this story, reporter Kris Hundley presented a one-sided, negative point of view of Ross University that did not take into account the thousands of successful doctors who have graduated from our university over the past 31 years.

Ross University has a proven record of providing outstanding education to all of our students. Our results speak for themselves:

• We have a first-time, U.S. Medical Licensing Examination Step 1 test pass rate of 93.3 percent, comparable with the 94 percent at U.S.-based medical schools.
• Nearly two-thirds of our students enter primary care, filling an enormous unmet need in the United States.
• Ross University places more graduates into U.S. residencies than any other medical school in the world.
There were also many mischaracterizations in the article, including:
• "Poor test scores make it impossible for students to get into medical schools in the States." There are more than 42,000 applicants for 19,000 seats in U.S. medical schools. Students who attend Ross are intelligent people who just miss entrance into U.S. schools because of the shortage of seats at U.S. based schools.
• The reporter indicated that only 80 percent of Ross students gain residencies. She did not make note that Ross students can, and often do, sign a contract for a residency prior to the residency Match. When Ross combines pre-Match students with our residency Match students, our residency placement rates are on par with U.S. medical schools.
• Our fifth semester program is more than an "intense test preparation" as the story asserted. Instead, this important part of the curriculum is our students' first compulsory clinical clerkship.
• Regarding student loan repayment, the U.S. Department of Education's most recent report shows that 0.2 percent — just 1 out of every 400 Ross graduates — default on their subsidized student loans.

There are more than 7,000 Ross University School of Medicine alumni across the United States. We should celebrate the success of these physicians who are providing tens of thousands of Americans yearly with the medical care they so desperately need.

Dr. Thomas Shepherd, president, Ross University, North Brunswick, N.J.

 

[EternalMD]

Let's put some real facts behind this article. While I am in no way trying to offend Caribbean grads, these refuted statements are a bit misleading

• We have a first-time, U.S. Medical Licensing Examination Step 1 test pass rate of 93.3 percent, comparable with the 94 percent at U.S.-based medical schools.

How about accounting for a drop out rate and the supposed weeding out that occurs prior to students being allowed to sit for Step 1. From what someone I know who went to the islands, that 93% pass rate was a padded number from one year which they continually quote. Whether this is true or not, there aren't any non-Ross institutions that back this claim

• Nearly two-thirds of our students enter primary care, filling an enormous unmet need in the United States.

This is hardly due to the desire of caribbean grads to go into primary care (definitely not due to a more altruistic nature of ross grads) but rather the realization that the more competitive residency slots typically go to american grads and primary care is easier to get into (I am not saying that ross grads may not go into competitive residencies. Just that, usually its the very best of the best --- the criteria to match as an AMG aren't as strict as an FMG)

• Ross University places more graduates into U.S. residencies than any other medical school in the world.

They also pump out from what I hear about 600 students per year. Most US schools graduating classes are around 150 so while this statement is true, it doesn't take into account how many of them DON'T match - i'd venture to say that the number of unmatched ross grads is higher than any other medical school in the world then also

There were also many mischaracterizations in the article, including:
• "Poor test scores make it impossible for students to get into medical schools in the States." There are more than 42,000 applicants for 19,000 seats in U.S. medical schools. Students who attend Ross are intelligent people who just miss entrance into U.S. schools because of the shortage of seats at U.S. based schools.

Ross students are intelligent - true. "just miss entrance into US schools because of the shortage of seats" is once again misleading. Yeah of course if there are 42000 seats, then they would all go to US schools. The fact is that the average MCAT score for caribbean grads is lower than AMGs allowing for the statement given above regarding poor scores. Ross is also a for profit institution so they WILL accept just about anyone willing to pay because at worst, that student will fail after one year and Ross has then collected one years worth of tuition from him/her

• The reporter indicated that only 80 percent of Ross students gain residencies. She did not make note that Ross students can, and often do, sign a contract for a residency prior to the residency Match. When Ross combines pre-Match students with our residency Match students, our residency placement rates are on par with U.S. medical schools.

The pre-match is usually accepted by candidates who believe they would go unmatched in the regular match process. If Ross students were able to gain residency positions as easily as Ross claims, pre-matches would hardly be a regular occurrence

• Our fifth semester program is more than an "intense test preparation" as the story asserted. Instead, this important part of the curriculum is our students' first compulsory clinical clerkship.


That "fifth semester program" is primarily meant to prepare people to take the USMLE. Sprinkling it with clinical experience doesn't hide the fact that it's mainly a test prep session

• Regarding student loan repayment, the U.S. Department of Education's most recent report shows that 0.2 percent — just 1 out of every 400 Ross graduates — default on their subsidized student loans.

That number includes GRADUATES - how many drop outs are defaulting on their loans??

There are more than 7,000 Ross University School of Medicine alumni across the United States. We should celebrate the success of these physicians who are providing tens of thousands of Americans yearly with the medical care they so desperately need.

That statement is the equivalent of saying that ALL medical school alumni are providing medical care to thousands of americans. This isn't something that they are doing exclusively. ALL practicing doctors are doing this. As chris rock says - it's like a guy says "i take care of my kids... YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO TAKE CARE OF YOUR KIDS"


[/QUOTE=TTPHUS]

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm not going to address anything . Here the president responded ..here is his response . While you are reading his response , you may as well get off your high horse and appreciate the fact that were it not for ross grads , primary care in the us would be in far worse shape

His response fails to address the issues raised in the article in any satisfactory way.

I'll get off my "high horse" when you get off yours - it's not like Ross grads are out to save the world by going into primary care - they go into it because it's the only thing available to them.

 

[filter07]

Matching into primary care is not a bad outcome, considering they couldn't get into medical school in the first place.

 

[EternalMD]

I find it amusing that I had posted my reply without any idea another thread was running with a similar topic and yet in that thread, wagy27 made the same exact points I made - kind of makes me feel like i stole his ideas but it points more to the fact that the rebuttals are realizations that many individuals know while few ross students/graduates are willing to admit

 

[doctorFred]

I find it amusing that I had posted my reply without any idea another thread was running with a similar topic and yet in that thread, wagy27 made the same exact points I made - kind of makes me feel like i stole his ideas but it points more to the fact that the rebuttals are realizations that many individuals know while few ross students/graduates are willing to admit

aka common sense

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Ross gives many US and Canadian students who did not get accepted into medical school a "second chance". Some are able to take this opportunity and make the most of it. The best grads from Ross easily hold their own against US grads. So, there is clearly some "good" here.

The concern is that the people running Ross are not really trying to address a shortfall of US physicians. They are trying to make money. The size of Ross is purely based upon cash flow, not on quality of applicants, needs of the US healthcare system, availability of clinical training sites, etc. I (and others) worry that Ross has expanded to a point that a) a significant number of entrants will not make it to graduation, B) clinical sites are not numerous enough nor high enough quality to train everybody, and c) may saturate the residency market (given increasing allopathic and DO school enrollments).

I am not sure that Ross (or SGU, or any other carib school) is being up front and honest with their applicants, because if their loans are subsidized then they have no financial risk. It almost sounds like big banks making risky financial investments, then insuring against losses with a big insurance comapny, figuring that if everything goes south the gov't will "subsidize" the losses. But no one would really be crazy enough to do that....

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with APD. I've worked with a Ross student who was excellent and I'm sure will get a residency. However, I don't think it's right for a med school...any med school...to accept a lot more people than they know will make it to graduation. They should have reasonable ways of figuring out who will be able to hack it, academically speaking, and perhaps clinically as well. They should have adequate 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations set up for their students. They should have adequate academic support in place so that the vast majority of students will graduate. If they don't do these things, then I think the goal is making money and not training physicians per se. So the buyer/prospective student needs to beware. Remember that we all think we'll be the exception to the rule, but if your academics weren't up to par in the US then don't expect a miracle that overnight you're going to morph into this great student if you haven't done the prep work to succeed at a med school level, or just don't have the academic chops to make it in a rigorous science curriculum with mass quantities of stuff to memorize.

 

[jiy76]

The premise of the Tampa Bay article was fair.As dragonfly and APD mentioned Ross as well as most carib schools operate to maximize profit.This causes many problems as mentioned.The thing I take issue with is the complete bias of the article. Yes there are some poor students who don't make it through but there are a large majority of students who go on to become excellent physicians out of these schools. The article makes Ross look like a shady diploma mill.Carib schools have their issues but many provide solid education and opportunities for a lot of people.And a lot of those people end up doing very well.

 

[howelljolly]

The pre-match is usually accepted by candidates who believe they would go unmatched in the regular match process. If Ross students were able to gain residency positions as easily as Ross claims, pre-matches would hardly be a regular occurrence



[/QUOTE=TTPHUS]

You made a lot of good points except for this one. This statement is so patently untrue it's not even funny. Where did you come up with this?

Pre-matches are accepted by candidates who aren't completely stupid.

First of all, if a candidate is offered a pre-match from one of their....say... top 3 programs, they'd be crazy not to accept it.

Secondly, it's a commonly held "open secret" that if a candidate does NOT accept a pre-match that is offered to them, so that they can continue interviewing and go through the match.... that they will not be ranked AT ALL by the program that they turned down in the pre-match. Its either, take it now or leave it forever.

In fact, some IMGs actually are afraid to be offered a pre-match, because they don't want to be put in this sticky situation.

Third, only the relatively qualified candidates (or ones with an inside connection) are even offered a pre-match, so why should they believe that they will go unmatched? The IMG candidates who go on interviews without being offered a pre-match might believe that they'll go unmatched - not those that are offered one.

So, you made some valid points, except for this one - which is not only false, but self-referentially incoherent.

 

[howelljolly]

I wonder what percentage of the 1000 applicants are Carib med students/grads.

I wonder why physicians and medical students are so bent on dissecting others' motivations and on insisting that they are more qualified, and that others are less so.

What's the point of dissecting what is really nothing more than a random PD, and the president of Ross coming to the aid of colleagues (or red-headed stepchildren if you will) who were insulted/offended by a news article? Why can't the PD simply be trying to say something nice? When you try to help a friend out do you make sure that what you say is evidence based?

Obviously, there are US grad/US docs who teach in the Caribbean, and have nothing against those graduates. When I went to the Caribbean for med school, we had a prof who had retired from a ROAD specialty in a top-tier med school in the US. He said that the wanted to teach and support Caribbean med students because he'd rather have a "second rate undergrad - turned competent physician" in the medical field than have a nurse-practitioner. Everyones got their axe to grind.

How is the weed-out process in Caribbean schools and the USMLE a bad thing? Only in medicine will we twist a positive into a negative. ("Well I think that one of my worst qualities as an applicant is that I care too much about patients")
Caribbean schools are basically taking applicants and saying "You think you can be a doctor? Well prove it." Wouldn't you want the school to throw out the bottom half of its students, and then allow the USMLE to throw out another half?

Then with getting into the same residency as AMGs, and getting getting the same clinical training and passing the same specialty boards.... its pretty arrogant and elitist to say that those people are still incompetent.

The OP left enough information for anyone to figure out exactly who that PD is, what program he is in charge of, and exactly who the residents in that particular program are. The medical schools represented by the current residents range from Ross to Johns Hopkins.

Yeah, Im a Caribbean grad... no need to check my other posts.

 

[EternalMD]

You made a lot of good points except for this one. This statement is so patently untrue it's not even funny. Where did you come up with this?

I came up with this by talking to a few friends and residents that I rotated with throughout medical school. The problem with the logic you presented is that you are assuming that the "top 3 programs" are similar in caliber to another individuals "top 3 programs". sure if MGH, stanford, columbia are offering pre-match contracts, then one would be a fool not to accept it - the reality of this is that, it would be a rare occurrence for these top programs do such - they hardly have an incentive to do such because the KNOW they will fill through the regular match with stellar candidates. it is the lower tier programs who would prefer to offer contracts so that they don't go unmatched when the regular match occurs because they already locked in a certain number of applicants.

A friend of mine had this to say about him going through the match - He told me that the location he is doing his residency wasn't his #1 choice (in fact he wanted to go to Michigan for his training). Unfortunately, his top programs weren't offering a guaranteed position - they said "don't worry, we'll be ranking you near the top of our list" but he was smart enough to not fall for this possibly deceiving comment as many people have gotten burned before falling for it. So he decided it would be better for him to just accept the pre-match rather than try to take a chance and at worse, go unmatched. His fear was more about going unmatched --- that's where I based my opinion. If this is an incorrect conclusion, then I would not hesitate to admit I am wrong but unless we interview a large number of people who prematch and ask for their logic, it's hard to make a blanketed statement supporting either your opinion or mine

 

[jiy76]

I think this is the main issue. Based on the statistics presented it does not appear that "a large majority of students" do go on to become physicians. With a 4 year matriculation rate of 30%, I would not call that the majority. of note, nothing in the president of Ross's rebuttal could explain this number.

That number is misleading.Yes all students should finish in 4 years like in the U.S system but with the competitiveness of residency for the IMG many students try to become ecfmg certified before applying. This requires taking step 1 and 2 and graduating.So some stay 4 and half years and miss the graduation deadline.Some also spend a little extra time trying to do well on their boards. Although this is not ideal, the article makes it seem that the other 70% drop out and are left twisting in the wind.This is far from the case. I'll say it again a large majority of students go on to become physicians out of Ross and a lot of the carib schools.If you look at the overall matriculation rate out of Ross it will be a large majority.

 

[howelljolly]

I came up with this by talking to a few friends and residents that I rotated with throughout medical school. The problem with the logic you presented is that you are assuming that the "top 3 programs" are similar in caliber to another individuals "top 3 programs". sure if MGH, stanford, columbia are offering pre-match contracts, then one would be a fool not to accept it - the reality of this is that, it would be a rare occurrence for these top programs do such - they hardly have an incentive to do such because the KNOW they will fill through the regular match with stellar candidates. it is the lower tier programs who would prefer to offer contracts so that they don't go unmatched when the regular match occurs because they already locked in a certain number of applicants.

A friend of mine had this to say about him going through the match - He told me that the location he is doing his residency wasn't his #1 choice (in fact he wanted to go to Michigan for his training). Unfortunately, his top programs weren't offering a guaranteed position - they said "don't worry, we'll be ranking you near the top of our list" but he was smart enough to not fall for this possibly deceiving comment as many people have gotten burned before falling for it. So he decided it would be better for him to just accept the pre-match rather than try to take a chance and at worse, go unmatched. His fear was more about going unmatched --- that's where I based my opinion. If this is an incorrect conclusion, then I would not hesitate to admit I am wrong but unless we interview a large number of people who prematch and ask for their logic, it's hard to make a blanketed statement supporting either your opinion or mine

Thats true.

In your friends case, going unmatched is his worst case scenario.
-What would also be a bad scenario is that the PD was being deceptive, and he wouldnt match there either.
-A good outcome would be that the PD was truthful and he'd match there.
-A indifferent outcome would be that he matched anywhere on his ROL.
-A decent outcome would be that he pre-matched at a program he would be willing be at AND totally avoid a bad outcome or his worst case scenario.

Most people would take surefire "decent" over a chance at 'indifferent', 'bad', 'worst', and even a chance at 'good'. Especially if a Caribbean grad might be accustomed to things not going their way. (insert the memory of not getting into ANY US med school here)

Not even knowing him, I think that this is more along the lines of the thought process.


Regarding your first point above - you dont need to assume consistency or agreement in Top3 programs, and whether or not they offer pre-matches.

Its not a question of the Top3 programs... its their Top3 programs.

By about mid-October, applicants have a good idea of where they're invited to, and what their ROL will consist of. Even before going to the interview, you'll have an idea of which programs on your ROL will be at the top - based on location, research/fellowship opportunities, program structure as per the website, etc.

Its true that a lower tier program may be more likely to offer a prematch, but its also likely that of the programs which invited an IMG, this lower-tier one is the best.

 

[howelljolly]

That number is misleading.Yes all students should finish in 4 years like in the U.S system but with the competitiveness of residency for the IMG many students try to become ecfmg certified before applying. This requires taking step 1 and 2 and graduating.So some stay 4 and half years and miss the graduation deadline.Some also spend a little extra time trying to do well on their boards. Although this is not ideal, the article makes it seem that the other 70% drop out and are left twisting in the wind.This is far from the case. I'll say it again a large majority of students go on to become physicians out of Ross and a lot of the carib schools.If you look at the overall matriculation rate out of Ross it will be a large majority.

You're not helping.

 

[jiy76]

You're not helping.

No, You are not helping.Its the truth...whether you want to hide it or not.I am a big supporter of carib school graduates but the facts are the facts.

 

[jiy76]

The statistics just aren't on your side to make that claim, that a large majority make it. Fine you say, throw out the 30% at 4 years becuase of other circumstances. What about the 60% at 6 years which by US standards is an abysmal rate when most US schools are in the high 90s at 4 years. I'm sure that there are lots of great Ross graduates and I have met my fair share but I would argue that it's not because a high percentage of Ross entrants become great physicians but because so many enter the Ross pipeline that the sheer law of averages means a fair number will come out.

The article reports the 6 year matriculation rate at 66% not 60. Thats two-thirds, which is a clear majority and I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers are fudged.Regardless, yes, the rates are much lower that of a U.S med school. The reason being that Ross like most carib schools looks to maximize profits and admits too many people.I agree wholeheartedly on that point. The problem is that the article is so biased as to make people believe that Ross graduates are clueless upon graduation and that the school is essentially stealing your money and giving you nothing in return.The carib system has flaws but for a majority of people its a good alternative.

 

[Pascal8]

WHats with this arrogance ? The fact of the matter is that Caribbean grads have long played an integral part of the healthcare system . They are competent having completed:

1. Basic sciences taught by American Professors utilizing the same textbooks used in the american medical schools . I may add that a lot of great us professors , many of whom held prestigious positions at top us medical institutions are teaching medical students in the caribbean. Many of the texts we used in medical school were actually written by faculty now teaching in the caribbean . This is a FACT .

2. Clinical rotations in us ACGME hospitals . Many of these hospitals are in underseved areas .

3.. Medical boards . To graduate they all have to pass usmle step 1 , step 2 ck and step 2 cs .

My girlfriend and many of her friends attended Ross . Students that make it out of Ross are solid . It is indeed true that attrition is high and many students fail out , quit or transfer out . Its not like everyone should be a doctor and Ross actually proves that with a rigorous curriculum and strict standards that are sacnctioned by state visits etc . I think in the end these kids will make great doctors given that they have more international experience and ..yes ..as a result more open minded and culturally tolerant .

It is true that the majority of these grads know from the start that primary care would more than likely be their ultimate career path . This is a blessing since most AMGs wouldnt touch primary care with a 10 foot pole .

For your PCP , would you prefer an NP or a Ross grad who has completed a medical education , board exams and a residency ?

 

[J1515]

You're not helping.

 

[J1515]

it is the lower tier programs who would prefer to offer contracts so that they don't go unmatched when the regular match occurs because they already locked in a certain number of applicants.

It's not necessarily about a program not filling in the match. It's also about a PD trying to grab an applicant(s) they really like before they are swept up by another program (either offered a prematch by another program or ranking another program higher). Is this ethical behavior? Depends who you ask.

Edit: I'm not talking about the places that offer all but one of their spots as prematches. These places are most likely worried about not filling within the match.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It is indeed true that attrition is high and many students fail out , quit or transfer out . Its not like everyone should be a doctor and Ross actually proves that with a rigorous curriculum and strict standards that are sacnctioned by state visits etc .

But this is the whole problem that the article brings up - Ross basically sits back and lets the money roll in while they wait for the successes/failures to sort themselves out. This is a horribly expensive practice both for the individuals who fail out and the government which is subsidizing all the loans.

At US med schools the process is different - we still get "weeded out" it is just that the admissions office is the one doing it. The vast majority of those entering do have the capacity to graduate and proceed to a career as a physician. And I promise that we all go through a rigorous curriculum and strict standards as well.

 

[Rendar5]

There is no arrogance here, just concern over who we are allowing to practice medicine. As for your points:

1. Basic sciences- dont know enough about how they are taught at various caribbean institutions to comment

2. There is definately a difference here; many caribbean students end up with rotations that are not on par to AMG rotations. AMG's for the most part are given the oppurtunity to do rotations at institutions with assigned teaching faculty and residents. I have many friends who have gone to caribbean schools ranging from SGU/ROSS to lesser known and the biggest challenge they find is in the quality of 3rd/4th year rotations.

3. Boards- a contentious point but many Caribbean grads take significantly longer than the average US student, 3-4 weeks vs. many months especially if you include the "5th semester"

The problem that many of us have is quality control and footing the bill. I dont see Ross performing quality control at the door, they just want your cash. Further, when US loans are going to these students I think it is imperative that we control the matriculation rates.

With regards to primary care, this is going to change. The number of residency spots has been stagnant for years now and the number of US MD/DO spots increasing to the point that some project there to be limited spots available as of 2013/2014.

Caribbean grads HAD a place in the US medicine system. I think the future of that is tenuous at this time with the changes highlighted above.

In regards to points 2 and 3 (to play devil's advocate), there is a situation in NYC now where a lot of Carib's are coming to do their 3rd and 4th year rotation, which is taking away some of those spots from US medical students (not that there arne't enough hospitals for us here, just fewer to choose from nowadays. And point 3, I'm not sure who studies for boards for only 3-4 weeks unless you mean step 2's. step 1's most ppl i'm aware of here take about 8 weeks to do them, not to mention there are plenty of people in certain US schools that are relatively higher-tier that allow their students to take extra time to prepare for them.

Is it really a significant drain on the US economy to have unsuccessful Carribean medical students (the ones who really aren't up to task) take out loans and then drop out after 2 years needing to repay them?

I dunno, I honestly don't mind working with Carribean students because by the time I see them in residency, the weaker ones have already been weeded out and only the really good ones remain (who happen to be on par if not better with their colleagues since they have to prove themselves more to get a res spot). Granted, the ones I see are the ones who are good enough to get into EM and IM and other stuff a bit harder to get into than FM.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Interesting thread. I have a couple of thoughts. We can't have it both ways. We want the Ross students held to a high standard so that we get good doctors and yet we complain about their attrition rate. The standards for getting in to Ross are obviously lower than a typical MD school (how they compare to a typical DO school I don't know), so allowing some attrition is good.

We don't like the cost of training these folks but what are we getting for the money? I went to their website and looked at their match data. They are filling primary care residencies almost without exception. The fact that this is due to a lack of options is irrelevant. The bottom line is that they are training people to do jobs that most of you don't want. So, if it costs a little more per graduate, that cost is more than justified by filling a need. This is purely supply and demand. Ross students are less attractive to our residency programs than US students. If large numbers who make it through their system do not get residencies, their business will eventually fail. The taxpayers who eat the defaulted loans are getting a decent return when you consider that nearly every Ross graduate is doing a job that is not very attractive to the average US graduate.

As for the quality of the student, I don't really care. I care about the quality of the residency graduate. As long as people get good training in residency, med school training in 3rd and 4th year becomes almost irrelevant.

 

[howelljolly]

Interesting thread. I have a couple of thoughts. We can't have it both ways. We want the Ross students held to a high standard so that we get good doctors and yet we complain about their attrition rate. The standards for getting in to Ross are obviously lower than a typical MD school (how they compare to a typical DO school I don't know), so allowing some attrition is good.

We don't like the cost of training these folks but what are we getting for the money? I went to their website and looked at their match data. They are filling primary care residencies almost without exception. The fact that this is due to a lack of options is irrelevant. The bottom line is that they are training people to do jobs that most of you don't want. So, if it costs a little more per graduate, that cost is more than justified by filling a need. This is purely supply and demand. Ross students are less attractive to our residency programs than US students. If large numbers who make it through their system do not get residencies, their business will eventually fail. The taxpayers who eat the defaulted loans are getting a decent return when you consider that nearly every Ross graduate is doing a job that is not very attractive to the average US graduate.

As for the quality of the student, I don't really care. I care about the quality of the residency graduate. As long as people get good training in residency, med school training in 3rd and 4th year becomes almost irrelevant.

Exactly, exactly, and exactly.

Also, this whole issue with students defaulting on their federal loans might not be an issue at all - almost all Caribbean schools lost their federal loans years ago. Due to some loophole ome of the students at the older schools like Ross and SGU might be on federal loans, if at all. The government tackled this problem years ago, and its a non-issue.