Frontline vs. Advantage/K-9Advantix

[mammalmama]

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I have been attending the meetings at our clinic conducted by Merial which makes Frontline and Bear which makes both Advantage and Advantix. The Frontline seminar today was very informative as they showed how it worked plus all the studies that were not only done by their company, but universities as well. When I had gone to the Advantage/Advantix seminar they showed a video of how the medication at least for Advantix repels the ticks. Just by comparing the two meetings that we had it seems like Frontline is the better product. And I even learned something today. I learned that Advantix only repels mosquitos for 7 days. The Bear corporation doesn't even tell you that. I was just wondering what everyone's opinions are on these three products?

 

[dvm n 06]

I am a little biased because I only use Frontline on my dog and Revolution on my cats. I like Frontline because I don't have to worry about it washing off as long as you don't bathe your dog for 2 days before and after applying it. I have used Advantage in the past on my cats and it does kill fleas but obviously does nothing for ticks hence the reason for K9 Advantix. Advantage seems to kill fleas more quickly than Frontline, but it does tend to wash off if the dog gets wet so I chose Frontline over Advantage. I think Frontline lasts longer than Advantage too.

I would not use Advantix in my house for the simple reason that it contains permethrin which can be toxic to cats if consumed. If the cats don't have any contact with the dog that gets the Advantix then it should be safe to use K9 Advantix, but I didn't want to risk it (call me paranoid). I would rather be safe than sorry. I have seen and heard about too many cats that have died because they consumed a flea product that contained permethrin.

As far as the mosquito issue, I think it was marketed originally because of the West Nile Virus hype. However, I don't really think that has been a cause for concern in dogs. Consequently I don't even consider the mosquito repellant a benefit of the product.

I use revolution in my cats because I like the fact that it prevents heartworm disease in addition to killing fleas. I live in a heartworm endemic area and none of them like the heartgard treats so Revolution seemed like the perfect solution.

 

[Michael Hammond]

If you Google "Frontline and seizures" or "Advantix killed my dog" or with words like "Harmed" you might get an eye opener. These big companies spend a lot of money developing their drugs and do not want to hear about negative effects. In the course of Googling I found a natural solution that works very well; Neem oil and Neem powder if you are interested contact me and i will send you a webpage that explains Neem.

 

[Malhi]

If you Google "Frontline and seizures" or "Advantix killed my dog" or with words like "Harmed" you might get an eye opener. These big companies spend a lot of money developing their drugs and do not want to hear about negative effects. In the course of Googling I found a natural solution that works very well; Neem oil and Neem powder if you are interested contact me and i will send you a webpage that explains Neem.

I used to actually brew neem leaves and use the water to bathe my dogs to get rid of fleas and ticks, in India. I think it is awesome that people all over the world are realizing the benefits of natural remedies. 🙂

 

[pressmom]

If you Google "Frontline and seizures" or "Advantix killed my dog" or with words like "Harmed" you might get an eye opener. These big companies spend a lot of money developing their drugs and do not want to hear about negative effects. In the course of Googling I found a natural solution that works very well; Neem oil and Neem powder if you are interested contact me and i will send you a webpage that explains Neem.

Hmmmm...funny you never see pages from all the people's dogs that didn't die of diseases like Lyme and Erlichiosis...

Also interesting that on a Google search of Neem Oil, I found this

http://www.botanical.com/products/learn/oilprofile/neem.html

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Precautions
Use caution if using internally. Because of Neem Oil's strength, we recommend that you do additional research before using Neem Oil internally. Children and pregnant or nursing women should not use Neem. Infants have suffered from death as a result of internal use of Neem.
Long term use of the oil has been linked with liver and kidney dysfunction.
Large doses of Neem may be toxic. If you are currently on medication, consult with a doctor before using Neem. Not enough studies have been done on drug interactions. Keep away from children and pets.
.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Just because a product is "natural" doesn't give a green light as far as side effects or toxic effects. Many of the drugs are directly or indirectly come from plants or other living organisms. Plus there are less stringent standards on "natural" products than on those from pharmaceutical companies. So just don't fool yourself. Some are better, some are the same, some are worse. I don't know much about this one, but I just wanted to throw out what I found in a cursory search.

To the OP: ask questions of the vet you work for and you'll learn a lot more about all of them in vet school!
.

 

[dyachei]

I am a little biased because I only use Frontline on my dog and Revolution on my cats. I like Frontline because I don't have to worry about it washing off as long as you don't bathe your dog for 2 days before and after applying it. I have used Advantage in the past on my cats and it does kill fleas but obviously does nothing for ticks hence the reason for K9 Advantix. Advantage seems to kill fleas more quickly than Frontline, but it does tend to wash off if the dog gets wet so I chose Frontline over Advantage. I think Frontline lasts longer than Advantage too.

I would not use Advantix in my house for the simple reason that it contains permethrin which can be toxic to cats if consumed. If the cats don't have any contact with the dog that gets the Advantix then it should be safe to use K9 Advantix, but I didn't want to risk it (call me paranoid). I would rather be safe than sorry. I have seen and heard about too many cats that have died because they consumed a flea product that contained permethrin.

As far as the mosquito issue, I think it was marketed originally because of the West Nile Virus hype. However, I don't really think that has been a cause for concern in dogs. Consequently I don't even consider the mosquito repellant a benefit of the product.

I use revolution in my cats because I like the fact that it prevents heartworm disease in addition to killing fleas. I live in a heartworm endemic area and none of them like the heartgard treats so Revolution seemed like the perfect solution.

While I am also a Frontline user, just wanted to point out that they have found that cats that live with dogs on Advantix have not had adverse effects (of course that was the company that makes Advantis that came out with that info).

 

[Truth74]

I'd just like to say that some sights are not accurate. Oh boy, there are tons of them.

I would recommend going to places that have studies to back up the information (like the ASPCA).

Also, there are always underlying conditions and circumstances (like genetic predisposition..Australian Shepherds come to mind) that the owner does not take into account. Go to the vet and have a conversation about flea and tick control before giving "natural" product and remedies.

 

[Malhi]

Neem is very potent... It has to have some toxicity since it is used as an insecticide. If you're specifically buying something to kill living things, you have to expect some harmful effects.

That being said, every single part of the neem tree has been used in India for centuries from the twigs being used as tootbrushes to the water used for boiling neem leaves, being used as a mild cure for skin diseases. The seeds are what are used to make the oil that is used as an insecticide. We are cautioned to not ingest too much at a time but it is an excellent topical treatment.

I think when you have products being manufactured as a consumer packaged good, you're going to get complications. Obviously, you get a more concentrated dose and other additives and preservatives to make it last longer. You also don't get centuries old wisdom to protect or caution you on usage.

 

[dyachei]

Neem is very potent... It has to have some toxicity since it is used as an insecticide. If you're specifically buying something to kill living things, you have to expect some harmful effects.

That being said, every single part of the neem tree has been used in India for centuries from the twigs being used as tootbrushes to the water used for boiling neem leaves, being used as a mild cure for skin diseases. The seeds are what are used to make the oil that is used as an insecticide. We are cautioned to not ingest too much at a time but it is an excellent topical treatment.

I think when you have products being manufactured as a consumer packaged good, you're going to get complications. Obviously, you get a more concentrated dose and other additives and preservatives to make it last longer. You also don't get centuries old wisdom to protect or caution you on usage.

The biggest difference I see isn't that there are additives and preservatives. The biggest difference to me is clinical studies that have been performed on the consumer packaged goods. The clinical studies do not exclude the additives. However, even if you do find studies on Neem, the likelihood that you will get the exact dose that they studied is slim. This can make a huge difference and is my biggest concern with natural remedies. Of course, I'm sure it isn't helping that I am taking pharmacology right now.

 

[nyanko]

We are cautioned to not ingest too much at a time but it is an excellent topical treatment.

I think when you have products being manufactured as a consumer packaged good, you're going to get complications. Obviously, you get a more concentrated dose and other additives and preservatives to make it last longer. You also don't get centuries old wisdom to protect or caution you on usage.

That's great and all, but you can't really reason with a cat or a dog and tell them "don't ingest too much of this, ok!"

So unless you can use it like you use Frontline/Advantage/Revo where you can put it on the back of the neck where the animal can't easily reach, I'd be pretty damn cautious about using it.

Another thing you have when products are manufactured for consumers is accountability. "Centuries old wisdom" does not "protect" you any more than "being able to file a lawsuit" and "strict guidelines for approval and use of a substance" does, just fyi.

 

[david594]

That's great and all, but you can't really reason with a cat or a dog and tell them "don't ingest too much of this, ok!"

Worried about the animals? My concern would be the clients. For flea and tick related incidents I have seen recently...

Advantix on a cat
Advantage given orally to a cat
"TNT Carpet Flea Power" put on 2 cats(the stuff came in a gallon size tub)
Toxicity to OTC Hartz topical
Toxicity to OTC Zodiac topical
Toxicity to generic OTC flea powder

I can't remember a single case of reaction to Advantage/Frontline/Revolution when used as intended.

 

[Malhi]

Has anyone ever tried eating neem? It is extremely bitter and is naturally repungent to animals.

Secondly, neem (at least in humans) is not toxic unless it is ingested in large amounts and continue the usage over a long period of time. Which if you were to taste it, you would realize why it is hard to imagine someone having it unless they thought it would help. It is only ingested for medicinal purposes.

Thirdly, the arguments being made seem a little baseless to me. Since, I have experienced using neem in entirely natural way (diluted, home brewed neem leaves extract) and the others may have used it as a neem oil which is extracted from seeds and sold as a product. There are always disclaimers made about all products to prevent lawsuits in the worst case scenario. If anyone knows of a study that has been published on neem's effect on animals, I would be delighted to know about it.

 

[nyanko]

If anyone knows of a study that has been published on neem's effect on animals, I would be delighted to know about it.

The point is, I wouldn't want to use this on my pets unless there were sufficient peer reviewed studies on its safety. The onus of proof shouldn't be on proving that it's harmful, it should be on proving that it's safe!

 

[Bill59]

If you Google "Frontline and seizures" or "Advantix killed my dog" or with words like "Harmed" you might get an eye opener.

If you google "Elvis" and "space aliens" you will also get an eye opener.

 

[Bill59]

If anyone knows of a study that has been published on neem's effect on animals, I would be delighted to know about it.

Guerrini VH, Kriticos CM. Effects of azadirachtin on Ctenocephalides felis in the dog and the cat. Vet Parasitol. 1998 Jan 31;74(2-4):289-97.

 

[starlene45]

There are also other options available BESIDES Advantage/Frontline.

I have two active dogs who are in and out of SF Bay on a constant basis. FL/ADV didn't seem to last long on either of them. I also have a pretty steady flow of strays/fosters through my house so we do get fleas in sometimes.

I have used food-grade Diatomaceous earth as a carpet/upholstery treatment with no ill effects on any of the pets (I have not, as some people recommend, fed it to myself or my pets, or rubbed it into their coats, I'm not quite that brave)

For flea control I use Revolution on the kitten and a heartworm/flea control combo pill Sentinel (made by Novartis) for the dogs. The ingredient in Sentinel for flea control sterilizes fleas, so it prevents breeding populations. If I realize that there are live fleas in the house I usually give everyone a Capstar pill to kill the live ones, and rely on the Sentinel to control everything else. I have only had to use Capstar 2x in the last 12 months (both after foster dogs came in).

I also really like Sentinel because its heartworm component does not contain Ivermectin, which can cause reactions in collie-type dogs.

 

[david594]

I can't be the only one who just uses whatever the drug reps give me for free?

 

[HopefulAg]

I can't be the only one who just uses whatever the drug reps give me for free?

You aren't. But I think they made that illegal now (drug reps giving out stuff). Or maybe that's just them doing lunches and stuff.

 

[dyachei]

You aren't. But I think they made that illegal now (drug reps giving out stuff). Or maybe that's just them doing lunches and stuff.

Since when? We have drug reps giving free lunches pretty much every month. Maybe its just certain schools/states?

 

[EqSci]

I use Advantix and have never had any problems. My dog has also been at my parents' house, where my 2 cats live, for several months at a time and I never had problems. Of course, they never come near each other, and I know this for certain.

I use K9 Advantix over Frontline or Advantage because my main concern is ticks. Fleas aren't so much of a problem, but I take my dog on long off-leash walks in wooded areas. I originally used Frontline Plus but it did virtually nothing for the ticks, so I switched to Advantix and it's great.

I think most of the problems with Advantix are people not READING the label and putting it on cats. Genuine concern for a practicing vet distributing the stuff, but not for me.

 

[HopefulAg]

Since when? We have drug reps giving free lunches pretty much every month. Maybe its just certain schools/states?

I don't know, like I said I think they did. I seem to vaguely recall an article about them making it illegal for pharmaceutical companies to take clients out to lunch/provide lunches/free products/etc. But that may have been just human medicine.

 

[CookieBear]

I also really like Sentinel because its heartworm component does not contain Ivermectin, which can cause reactions in collie-type dogs.

Yes, Ivermectin toxicity has been found at doses greater than 125 mcg/kg, and is typically seen at 300 to 600 mcg/kg, according to my parasit notes.

The monthly dose of Ivermectin in a product such as Heartgard by Merial is 6 mcg/kg.

Washington State University offers a test to see if your dog has this sensitivity: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/

Sorry for off-topic. This caught me eye because we recently covered this in parasit and I've always found it interesting.

 

[karmapple]

I don't know, like I said I think they did. I seem to vaguely recall an article about them making it illegal for pharmaceutical companies to take clients out to lunch/provide lunches/free products/etc. But that may have been just human medicine.

Nope. My husband is a pharmacist, and he still gets free food and pens and things all the time from drug reps.

 

[pressmom]

I don't know, like I said I think they did. I seem to vaguely recall an article about them making it illegal for pharmaceutical companies to take clients out to lunch/provide lunches/free products/etc. But that may have been just human medicine.

What you probably read was a widely circulated article that said many of the top US medical schools (I think it started at Yale) were ending the student rep programs and free lunches/dinners. I don't believe any vet schools have followed suit, nor do I believe it is illegal quite yet.

 

[starlene45]

Yes, Ivermectin toxicity has been found at doses greater than 125 mcg/kg, and is typically seen at 300 to 600 mcg/kg, according to my parasit notes.

The monthly dose of Ivermectin in a product such as Heartgard by Merial is 6 mcg/kg.

Washington State University offers a test to see if your dog has this sensitivity: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/

Sorry for off-topic. This caught me eye because we recently covered this in parasit and I've always found it interesting.

Cookie Bear-- Thanks for the information! I had no idea there was a sensitivity test, and while I've seen BC's get into horse dewormer and become seriously ill (and one went temporarily blind!) I'm glad to know the extreme difference between a toxic and theraputic dose. Funny little creatures, herding dogs...

 

[twelvetigers]

We sell/recommend Frontline and Revoultion. We mostly sell Frontline. It's what I use on my dogs and cats when they need it.

Any opinions on Comfortis? We sell that as well. Seems to work pretty well.

We had a dog come in a couple weeks ago that had severe burns on the back of its neck because her owner... mixed Hartz and Seargent's flea & tick, like they applied both at the same time? We never figured out EXACTLY what they did, but the damage was pretty extensive. The poor dog will have a bald spot for the rest of its life, I'm sure.

Why, oh why do people buy the stuff at Wal-Mart? Why isn't there a lawsuit against the stuff? It has some nasty, risky side effects... and it doesn't even work at keeping fleas and ticks at bay. Frustrating.

Edit: Also, Cookiebear - Yes! We had a collie come in that turned up HW+. We had to treat her in a completely different manner than we would a different breed of dog. Well, not completely different - we still used Immiticide - but we had to skip some of the follow-up treatments.

 

[winddolphin]

Any opinions on Comfortis? We sell that as well. Seems to work pretty well.

Our hospital also sells Comfortis. We used to recommend it more frequently, but my co-workers' dogs (3 in total) and 2 clients' dogs puked several days after getting Comfortis. Now we only recommend it to dogs with severe flea allergies. All dogs seemed to do fine except for the puking, tho.

 

[twelvetigers]

We always specify to give it WITH FOOD, perhaps that helps? We've had a couple dogs that don't do well with it, but only about 5% or less of those taking it. Of course, we have a dog that reacts the same way to Iverhart as well... I think they have to use Interceptor or what-not.

 

[BlistexWorks]

We have seen a lot more success with Vectra 3D

 

[ccrose3]

I've used Advantix in a mixed dog/cat household without any problems. I admit it's fairly easy for me to keep them separated long enough for it to not be an issue, and that's not the case for everyone. However, that being said, I'm not as happy with the efficacy of the product after bathing as opposed to Frontline (and I only bathe them once/month). The main reason I used Advantix is because I live near a creek, in a hot/humid climate, and we get a LOT of mosquitos and ticks, almost year-round. I was attracted to the fact that it actually REPELLED insects, so I thought that would bring a greater comfort level to my pets.

It's interesting that someone posted that the repellent effect only lasts 7 days, and I would have to say, even without bathing, that appeared to be the case. Frontline seems to work the best on my kiddos, so I'll probably keep using that until something better comes along. I would really love a safe product that actually repels, especially mosquitos and ticks. If anyone knows of something please let me know.

As for the "natural" remedies, I like the idea of natural whenever possible, but as was said by someone else, that does not always mean it's safe, or effective.

 

[david594]

I'm not as happy with the efficacy of the product after bathing as opposed to Frontline (and I only bathe them once/month).

How soon do you apply it after bathing?

 

[ccrose3]

How soon do you apply it after bathing?

Typically a couple weeks after bathing, give or a take a few days. I bathe them the first weekend of the month, then apply it on the 15th, since that's the same day I administer their hw pills.

 

[chris03333]

While I am also a Frontline user, just wanted to point out that they have found that cats that live with dogs on Advantix have not had adverse effects (of course that was the company that makes Advantis that came out with that info).

Tell that to many of the dead cat patients..🙁

People buy this stuff anywhere now and aren't aware of the issue so do not keep the dog/cat away from eachother and then crap happens.

 

[ccrose3]

Tell that to many of the dead cat patients..🙁

People buy this stuff anywhere now and aren't aware of the issue so do not keep the dog/cat away from eachother and then crap happens.

Yeah, even though I never had any problems myself, I do have to agree... too many people simply don't take the time to read the precautions. My vet freaked out when I told him I used Advantix, because he was worried about my cats. I guess there were a lot of people that used it improperly and their cats died. Very sad. 🙁

 

[PrimalMU]

What is the prevailing opinion on sevin dust? We had to resort to using sevin dust on our dog one summer because not a single flea product worked. We tried Frontline, Advantage, and I believe Revolution. We have tried a Capstar in conjunction with flea meds, but we apparently had a vicious strain of flea. Eventually we started working small amounts of sevin dust into her fur and, lo and behold, no more fleas.

I know its probably not the most ideal solution, but as far as I know sevin dust only develops its insecticidal characteristics after it is metabolized by the insect. I'm kind of curious as to whether or not there has been any studies showing sevin dust toxicity in dogs or cats.

 

[alliecat44]

What is the prevailing opinion on sevin dust? We had to resort to using sevin dust on our dog one summer because not a single flea product worked. We tried Frontline, Advantage, and I believe Revolution. We have tried a Capstar in conjunction with flea meds, but we apparently had a vicious strain of flea. Eventually we started working small amounts of sevin dust into her fur and, lo and behold, no more fleas.

I know its probably not the most ideal solution, but as far as I know sevin dust only develops its insecticidal characteristics after it is metabolized by the insect. I'm kind of curious as to whether or not there has been any studies showing sevin dust toxicity in dogs or cats.

Cookie and I just had our parasit exam covering fleas and were taught by perhaps the most world-renowned flea expert there is.

Keep in mind that when using a veterinary-prescribed flea remedy, it's essential that you have appropriate expectations. There is a "development window" and it will take 3-8 weeks for your flea infestation to disappear. (This is due to the flea life cycle and emergence patterns.)

Also, keep in mind that the over-the-counter remedies (Hartz, Sergeant, etc) are NOT regulated by the FDA--they are regulated by the EPA. Those manufacturers couldn't care less how many cats they kill--it doesn't (and likely never will) have any legal ramifications for them due to the complex legalities of EPA pesticide regulations. Very sad.

 

[PrimalMU]

Cookie and I just had our parasit exam covering fleas and were taught by perhaps the most world-renowned flea expert there is.

Keep in mind that when using a veterinary-prescribed flea remedy, it's essential that you have appropriate expectations. There is a "development window" and it will take 3-8 weeks for your flea infestation to disappear. (This is due to the flea life cycle and emergence patterns.)

Also, keep in mind that the over-the-counter remedies (Hartz, Sergeant, etc) are NOT regulated by the FDA--they are regulated by the EPA. Those manufacturers couldn't care less how many cats they kill--it doesn't (and likely never will) have any legal ramifications for them due to the complex legalities of EPA pesticide regulations. Very sad.

We fought the flea problem all summer. It lasted a good 5-6 months. Its no secret that every once in a while there is a crop of Frontline-resistant fleas. Last summer we had one of those, and consequently we ended up selling more Advantage than Frontline.

 

[LucyLoo]

We fought the flea problem all summer. It lasted a good 5-6 months. Its no secret that every once in a while there is a crop of Frontline-resistant fleas. Last summer we had one of those, and consequently we ended up selling more Advantage than Frontline.

I found a lot of the time people were treating the animal but not the environment. By doing both, the fleas seemed to come under control (most of the time anyway)

 

[twelvetigers]

Wha...? Sorry, I'm thrown off by the non-goat avatar, Lucy. Isn't it strange how we begin to associate a person with the picture? Then the picture changes and we're like, "Whoah! What just happened? Who the hell is that?"

🙂

 

[LucyLoo]

Wha...? Sorry, I'm thrown off by the non-goat avatar, Lucy. Isn't it strange how we begin to associate a person with the picture? Then the picture changes and we're like, "Whoah! What just happened? Who the hell is that?"

🙂

Nah, just gotta keep you on your toes! That is my kitty Lucy, I used the goat because it was the only animal pic I had handy at the time I joined.