FTE’s in Academia

[clement]

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I left academia long enough ago that I could be out of the loop…

I was recently offered a part time psych ER position at 0.6 FTE’s (this ER is not up and running yet). I’d always understood 0.6 to be 24hrs/week. At this institution, they reimburse for 24, but frame the work hours based off of a “1/2” or “full day.”

So 0.6 translates into “being available” to the employer from 7AM-5PM (mostly on-site by 8AM) x3 days a week, per their guesstimate… That’s 30 hours..

When “not on site,” it’s staffing NP and resident cases (which in the ER world could mean actually needing to go in). They also anticipate requiring the same amount of monthly overnight (home) call vs weekends as 1 FTE employees.

Is this pretty par for the course in academia?

 

[lobstar]

I talked to a few academic places when I was looking and I saw some where they wanted 8am-5pm coverage. That would be 45 hours per 1.0 FTE, but they essentially pretended it was 40. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if some places just said these are the "shifts" (10 hours) and 3 of them is a 0.6, even though that doesn't convert over to standard hours and full-time is then based off 50h. Sometimes they act like the lunch hour doesn't count even though you're covering and holding the pager. I would say not par for the course, at least in my region--par would be 40-45 for 1 FTE for non-outpatient. I'm sure that same hospital has clinic docs working 32h or 34h as 1.0 FTE and here they are asking you to take a job at 50h for 1.0 FTE.

 

[Atreides]

I talked to a few academic places when I was looking and I saw some where they wanted 8am-5pm coverage. That would be 45 hours per 1.0 FTE, but they essentially pretended it was 40. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if some places just said these are the "shifts" (10 hours) and 3 of them is a 0.6, even though that doesn't convert over to standard hours and full-time is then based off 50h. Sometimes they act like the lunch hour doesn't count even though you're covering and holding the pager. I would say not par for the course, at least in my region--par would be 40-45 for 1 FTE for non-outpatient. I'm sure that same hospital has clinic docs working 32h or 34h as 1.0 FTE and here they are asking you to take a job at 50h for 1.0 FTE.

yeah, I was offered an outpatient and ER job at the same institution. They pitched ER as being paid more (it was, slightly). But the hours were very different. A "full time" outpatient job was 8am to 5pm M-F but patients almost never get scheduled prior to 9am so really it's 9am to 5pm with an hour lunch (once a week have a team meeting during lunch). High no-show rates, can do 50% WFH. I routinely get a day a month where my WFH day has all no-shows for my morning appointments so I'm basically working a half day that day.

ER psychiatrists seem to get shafted everywhere.

 

[clement]

yeah, I was offered an outpatient and ER job at the same institution. They pitched ER as being paid more (it was, slightly). But the hours were very different. A "full time" outpatient job was 8am to 5pm M-F but patients almost never get scheduled prior to 9am so really it's 9am to 5pm with an hour lunch (once a week have a team meeting during lunch). High no-show rates, can do 50% WFH. I routinely get a day a month where my WFH day has all no-shows for my morning appointments so I'm basically working a half day that day.

ER psychiatrists seem to get shafted everywhere.

Jail is a nice compromise. Like jail though, the flip side of ER shafting is that visits can be very, very fast. So there is some “built in” time in that context. But you have to be physically present for most academic er jobs. I don’t want to get underpaid to sit around and fiddle my thumb, were it to be/become the case.
Bottom line, 40 is 40, this whole “we operate off of full or half days” just sounds like free labor.

 

[lobstar]

Are the call shifts paid separately?

 

[clement]

Nope.
Since it’s an impending ER, the operative premise is that early on one might need to be on site more than 8-9 hours but available 10, while later it will be 10 “on paper.” I don’t think it’s a bait switch, mostly verbal speculation…they are basing this off of the experience of inpatient and OP faculty who are not practicing acute care psychiatry…makes no sense

 

[lobstar]

Yeah the consult world, especially ED, is just so different than in/outpatient. It's too bad, I think a lot of people would do academic jobs if there were even a little more reasonable. Oh well, the telepsych consults/locum train comes for everyone eventually. It you like the place maybe reach out in a couple years after telepsych recommends admission for every single patient and the ED has complained about the drowning for a little while.

 

[comp1]

So this place is not up and running yet, you likely have SOME room to negotiate. 0.6 FTE should be 24 hours. If they want 3-10's, then that's a 0.75 FTE. And there's no practical reason why you ever should need to "come in" when you're not expected to be there in person. That should be laid out in writing before the unit even launches. There's a sitter and an iPad, you can do an assessment.

 

[Stagg737]

So this place is not up and running yet, you likely have SOME room to negotiate. 0.6 FTE should be 24 hours. If they want 3-10's, then that's a 0.75 FTE. And there's no practical reason why you ever should need to "come in" when you're not expected to be there in person. That should be laid out in writing before the unit even launches. There's a sitter and an iPad, you can do an assessment.

Agree with all of this except the telehealth part. Cannot tell you how many times I've seen obvious things missed via telehealth. Unless you're just saying that OP shouldn't have to be there when he's not evaluating someone, in which case 100% agree.

 

[Sushirolls]

It's par for the course if you accept it.
If you accept X, then it is good enough.
And as usual, get a contract in hand first with clear outline before you start. Otherwise, you are signaling you are ripe for being taken advantage of.

 

[mistafab]

I had applied and was offered positions for multiple academic jobs a year ago. I don't think this is par for the course. Only one of my offers was at a place that gave 1 FTE with assumption of 50 hours per week. All other offers assumed 40 hours per week when describing my FTE. I declined that offer because in my eyes they were paying for 1 FTE but asking 1.25 FTE. You're essentially being paid for 30, but being told it is 20. In my book that is a "pass" or a counter offer.

In the academic gig I was offered a "1 FTE" for 50 hours per week, I countered, but they said they were flexible on salary, not FTE/hours. YMMV. Academic places vary on what they can be flexible on. I passed because I was only interested in academic if it would be less work for less pay, not more work for less pay.

 

[clement]

I had applied and was offered positions for multiple academic jobs a year ago. I don't think this is par for the course. Only one of my offers was at a place that gave 1 FTE with assumption of 50 hours per week. All other offers assumed 40 hours per week when describing my FTE. I declined that offer because in my eyes they were paying for 1 FTE but asking 1.25 FTE. You're essentially being paid for 30, but being told it is 20. In my book that is a "pass" or a counter offer.

In the academic gig I was offered a "1 FTE" for 50 hours per week, I countered, but they said they were flexible on salary, not FTE/hours. YMMV. Academic places vary on what they can be flexible on. I passed because I was only interested in academic if it would be less work for less pay, not more work for less pay.

How would you respond if their justification were, “We’re not the public sector. We don’t reimburse you by the hour” vs “Here you don’t clock in…” but…you’re expected to “be available” even if driving (i.e work under the guise of not working).

Even places that don’t “reimburse by the hour” on a W2, pay you for your time, right? This just feels like playing w/ semantics.

 

[comp1]

I mean it is semantics, but that is all contracts are to begin with. And yeah W2 work is not generally paid by the number of services offered over a given time. For example, the VA has a somewhat conflicting definition for all MDs wherein they are expected to possibly be available 24/7, but the VA also has formal tours of duty for everyone. It is confusing when you first read it, but what it ultimately means when you see it in action is that call is not ever paid as overtime, it is built into the initial salary when they investigate average community pay for MDs in that specialty who take call. I am not sure what they mean by "we are not the public sector."

 

[mistafab]

How would you respond if their justification were, “We’re not the public sector. We don’t reimburse you by the hour” vs “Here you don’t clock in…” but…you’re expected to “be available” even if driving (i.e work under the guise of not working).

Even places that don’t “reimburse by the hour” on a W2, pay you for your time, right? This just feels like playing w/ semantics.

I mean it is semantics, but that is all contracts are to begin with. And yeah W2 work is not generally paid by the number of services offered over a given time. For example, the VA has a somewhat conflicting definition for all MDs wherein they are expected to possibly be available 24/7, but the VA also has formal tours of duty for everyone. It is confusing when you first read it, but what it ultimately means when you see it in action is that call is not ever paid as overtime, it is built into the initial salary when they investigate average community pay for MDs in that specialty who take call. I am not sure what they mean by "we are not the public sector."

Comp is right. Basically, they may talk a good game, but you need to see their offer and understand their actual expectations. It is helpful for them to offer (or you request) a draft LOI if you've already had first round interviews. Also make sure to get contact info for someone who is actually in this position.

A unique potential yellow flag for you is that anything that is "just opening" is going to have additional headaches that you may or may not want to deal with. 'New' anything typically means unpaid extra administrative issues you'll have to deal with for at least several months participating in the program.

My concern if I were in your shoes is you're paid 24 hours, expected 30 up front, but might have 30-35 with additional admin problems of a "new" program. I might request instead to get hired "per diem" 1099 and negotiate a rate I'm happy with so I can just deal with whatever bogus floats around at a number I am comfortable with, and leave when I'm off the clock.

 

[comp1]

I'm generally very anti 1099 (I greatly prefer the stability of W2 life), but this program genuinely doesn't know what is going on and that might be why what they say sounds so weird. They can't know; they're just getting started and starting anything is super confusing. Starting a whole psych ED is a whole different level. In this one case, I kind of support the 1099 idea. If everything seems to be going well you can always convert to a FTE or partial FTE in the future and both sides will better know what they are getting into. Finding a MD to hire is ROUGH and they probably have some (self imposed) restrictions, but I bet they could be flexible if you are.

 

[TexasPhysician]

What occurs in academia is not uniform. 1FTE at one program could be 36 hours and another could be 50 hours.

ER psych roles are very diverse. I’m in a large metro area. I know a local psychiatrist that was ER faculty (now private practice) in the past. He would have hours daily of doing nothing but had to be on-site because you never know when walk-ins will happen. He had residents 80% of the time doing the evals. As far as total work, it was an easy gig. You are applying for the job, so you probably know all of this.

From an amount of work standpoint and productivity standpoint, I can see where they are pushing 30 hours to be 0.6FTE. I would not be a good academic employee as I prefer productivity based pay. This is time based pay due to low actual work. As this is a new role, I would expect volume to be low initially.