Fulltime work + Bio + Ochem?

[Newmanium]

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I'm enrolled for Biology (5 credits with lab) plus Ochem (4 lecture, 2 lab) for a total of 11 credits. Will be working fulltime (~40 hrs). Lab sessions will take about 8 hours a week. So... that's about 40 hours work + 8 hours lab + 7 hours lecture = 55 hours, with leftover time to study.

My survival plan is to skip almost all the Ochem lectures since they're during the day (and no homework/quizzes are required), self-study and just show up for tests. Skip as many biology lectures as I can, depends on how the teacher is.

Am I setting myself up for failure here? I can drop a class (probably would drop Bio) for the first 3 weeks.

As far as the self-study - I'm an engineer, and have never learned from lectures. I'm betting on the fact that organic won't be as bad as some say. I've talked to a med student who started in engineering, got slammed, switched into psychology - and got the highest score in organic. He said it wasn't that bad compared to engineering.

Seems like it will be an intense year, but med school will be worse, right?

My overall plan is to take bio/ochem this year (I already have chem/physics from about 5 years back... will have to review on that of course). Then take the next year to study for MCAT, take genetics+biochem, and apply in summer 2010. I could rush and apply next year, but I want to give myself as much time as I need for the MCAT.

All thoughts welcome.

 

[iatetheworm]

since most people around here seem to be rain-man smart, i say best of luck--i'm sure you'll do fine. maybe add in genetics this year too?

however, speaking for myself and the other 1% on sdn who are of mere average intelligence, your plan for this year sounds like a bit much. the worst thing you can do is rush through this stuff and get burned out.

either way, good luck.

 

[OneTyme]

I understand what it is like to be busy. I work full time, train for a sport nearly full time and I am taking quite a few classes (14 credits). I think that most of the material learned in prereq's can be sufficiently self taught but I don't think that is necessarily the right question.

The primary goals of the prereq’s: Learn the information in a substantial way so you can smoke the MCAT, and get a stellar grade in the classes to show you can learn what your prof tells you to learn. I think that makes the most poignant question is, “Can I pick out the material that my professor is going to want me to know without going to lecture?”

I think that is very hard to do if you are not there to hear what the prof wants you to know. For example last semester my bio prof spent an entire lecture talking about octopuses (yes, actually a plural form of the word!) because she spends her summers researching them in Alaska. The next exam had several questions about the little buggers on it. The people who didn’t show lost a lot of points on something that was easy to master that wasn’t in any bio book….

It’s just my opinion so take it for what its worth. Best of luck!

 

[Lacheln]

You're the best judge of your own strengths, but you are probably taking a risk by planning to skip class. That said, plenty of people have followed that schedule successfully, so it's doable..

 

[LabMonster]

I'm enrolled for Biology (5 credits with lab) plus Ochem (4 lecture, 2 lab) for a total of 11 credits. Will be working fulltime (~40 hrs). Lab sessions will take about 8 hours a week. So... that's about 40 hours work + 8 hours lab + 7 hours lecture = 55 hours, with leftover time to study.

My survival plan is to skip almost all the Ochem lectures since they're during the day (and no homework/quizzes are required), self-study and just show up for tests. Skip as many biology lectures as I can, depends on how the teacher is.

Am I setting myself up for failure here? I can drop a class (probably would drop Bio) for the first 3 weeks.

As far as the self-study - I'm an engineer, and have never learned from lectures. I'm betting on the fact that organic won't be as bad as some say. I've talked to a med student who started in engineering, got slammed, switched into psychology - and got the highest score in organic. He said it wasn't that bad compared to engineering.

Seems like it will be an intense year, but med school will be worse, right?

My overall plan is to take bio/ochem this year (I already have chem/physics from about 5 years back... will have to review on that of course). Then take the next year to study for MCAT, take genetics+biochem, and apply in summer 2010. I could rush and apply next year, but I want to give myself as much time as I need for the MCAT.

All thoughts welcome.

It can be done - while going to class. I worked two jobs, planned a wedding, took O-chem and physics. I'm not going to lie - it sucked. One of my jobs was 3rd shift (clinical lab) so I did have some time to work some physics problems and draw out O-chem mechanisms when it wasn't busy.

I highly, highly suggest you go to your O-Chem lectures. It's more about learning what is happening on an atomic level than memorizing reactions (I think people tend to have problems when they try to memorize O-Chem instead of learning the basic mechs.) Biology tends to be more memorization - and depending on your strengths (i.e. love bio) then maybe you could skip some of those.

It's tough - best of luck. But.. I know it can be done 😀

 

[bradt9881]

Skipping lectures for me was never a smart move.....

 

[Omashu]

Skipping lectures for me was never a smart move.....

Yah, I agree. I think the OP is setting themself up for failure - it's better to take your time ... Don't rush it.

 

[montessori2md]

I think it could be done, but I also think that it would be wiser to subtract time from your mcat prep to take some courses later.

Remember: from the date you apply to the date you start school is usually about a year. Take biochem or genetics while you wait for interviews, they won't help much with MCAT.

Take bio while you prepare for MCAT, BS is almost entirely bio, and having class will pay double (once for the prereq, once for MCAT prep) because you won't have to review all the stuff you forgot since the course ended.

I'd stick w/ orgo now to see how you do -hard to say what will work until you've had that first exam, and if you do poorly you have plenty of time to reassess your work/school schedule and still stick to your MCAT date.

 

[Newmanium]

Well, from what I've heard, orgo is fairly standard - so my goal is to learn the material cold by doing lots of practice problems. If my goal was just to get a decent grade, I could show up for class and just learn the lectures - but I want to really understand this stuff, so lots and lots of problems is my attack plan.

I understand that a lot of this will be dependent on the professor - there were some engineering classes that I literally went to 3-4 times the whole semester and got an A, and others where you have to attend lecture because that's where half the test problems come from (bastards!!).

Engineering is all about understanding the principles, and rarely memorizing, so that's definitely my attack plan for orgo. I'm really curious how it will be, because I've heard so much about it on here. There were lots of engineering classes that had horrendous reputations (circuits, signals/systems, e-fields), and most weren't that bad if you kept up with the homework. I sure hope orgo follows the same pattern - I'm no genius, but I know how to study.

Bio seems like it will be much more challenging, and could be much more dependent on the lectures, so I plan to attend those for at least the first month.

Seriously, you guys all attend lectures? I skipped most of my engineering classes, I simply don't learn from lectures. Homework is where it's at, do all the problems on my own and make sure I *understand* everything. This is also my plan for med school - skip lectures, study on own. From what I've heard, it's definitely doable.

Thanks for the feedback! Worst case, I can drop one or the other, and do it next year while I prepare the MCAT (or take it over the summer).

 

[CultureDoc]

In reference to the class-skipping - I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but have you thought about what LORs you're going to need? If you don't have a committee letter (and I'm guessing you won't, but I might be wrong about that), then you're going to need at least 2 letters of recommendation profs who taught your pre-req courses (and generally one from a non-science prof) . . . and if you've always been a lecture -skipper, I'm not sure how you're going to get any LORs! Like you, I don't necessarily get that much out of class either (although that depends on the prof), but I knew from the get-go that I was going to have to go to class, look alive, ask questions, make comments, and talk to my profs outside of class to get some solid LORs for med school. Just some food for thought . . .


Also, FWIW, I had the same schedule two years ago (work full time, orgo and bio, w/8 hrs orgo lab) and it KILLED my science GPA . . . not because I had difficulty with the concepts, etc., but because I just literally did not have enough time to memorize everything I needed to for orgo. Perhaps you're better at time management, given your engineering background . . . or maybe you're one of those people who only needs a few hours of sleep a night to be able to function at work . . . or maybe your job is a cakewalk and you can study at work . . . but if any of those things aren't true, I'd say you're setting yourself up for a pretty rough year, and unnecessarily so. I agree with montessori2md - do biology next year along with your MCAT prep (very true that it will be fresher in your mind when you actually take the test.) I see no reason to cram both bio and orgo in this year - the smartest thing that you're doing is not trying to apply next year . . . so why kill yourself this year for no reason?

 

[njbmd]

I'm enrolled for Biology (5 credits with lab) plus Ochem (4 lecture, 2 lab) for a total of 11 credits. Will be working fulltime (~40 hrs). Lab sessions will take about 8 hours a week. So... that's about 40 hours work + 8 hours lab + 7 hours lecture = 55 hours, with leftover time to study.

My survival plan is to skip almost all the Ochem lectures since they're during the day (and no homework/quizzes are required), self-study and just show up for tests. Skip as many biology lectures as I can, depends on how the teacher is.

Am I setting myself up for failure here? I can drop a class (probably would drop Bio) for the first 3 weeks.

As far as the self-study - I'm an engineer, and have never learned from lectures. I'm betting on the fact that organic won't be as bad as some say. I've talked to a med student who started in engineering, got slammed, switched into psychology - and got the highest score in organic. He said it wasn't that bad compared to engineering.

Seems like it will be an intense year, but med school will be worse, right?

My overall plan is to take bio/ochem this year (I already have chem/physics from about 5 years back... will have to review on that of course). Then take the next year to study for MCAT, take genetics+biochem, and apply in summer 2010. I could rush and apply next year, but I want to give myself as much time as I need for the MCAT.

All thoughts welcome.

If you can pull this off with full-time work, then your plan is sound for you. I can tell you that you have one shot to do this well. There are loads of folks who are currently doing "damage control" because they were in a hurry. Well, that hurry turned out to be a long delay with no medical school acceptance at the end of all of the delay. Also, make sure if you decide to drop, drop early so that you are not wasting your money.

There are as many successful ways of getting into medical school as there are matriculants in each year's class. If this works for you then do it but as others have noted, it would not work for them.

 

[bradt9881]

Well, from what I've heard, orgo is fairly standard - so my goal is to learn the material cold by doing lots of practice problems. If my goal was just to get a decent grade, I could show up for class and just learn the lectures - but I want to really understand this stuff, so lots and lots of problems is my attack plan.

Learning the material by working the problems is only part of the picture. At least for me, having the professor show me how to work the model to visualize how a bond rotated and explain the whys of the reactions was also important. If you skip all classes, you are fully dependent on the textbook assigned by the professor, and not all textbooks are good textbooks at explaining principles.

Orgo is often a deal-breaker for aspiring physicians/physician assistants. Don't set yourself up for failure.

 

[sindadel]

My background is in engineering as well (BS in systems engineering, MS in biomedical engineering). I skipped a lot of classes and did ok in them by doing the homework etc.

I just took organic last year, while working full time, and it was much more like learning a foreign language than any other science/engineering class I have taken. I vote for take organic by itself (drop bio), and immerse yourself in it. I worked hard, did the problems, did the pre-reading, attended lecture, and got my A.

It's not that organic is hard, but it's a different way of looking at the world. Maybe more like functional programming compared to procedural programming (if you're familiar with that difference).

 

[chr123]

I took both classes at a CC near my work. Took one T/TH in the evening and the other M/W during the day. Work was flexible. Going to class makes tests easier because professors usually stress the stuff that will be tested on.

The biggest thing is getting letters from them. You usually need atleast one science letter and if you don't go to class, nobody will write you one.

 

[Newmanium]

For one thing, the classes are huge (state school), so I doubt they'll notice who's in class from one day to the next. Office hours seem like a better chance to get to know the professor, maybe try to do some extra assignments on the side.

I agree it seems a bit risky, but part of this is so I personally test myself at something near the level of intensity I'll experience in med school. In my view, if I can't handle this schedule - I should perhaps rethink the whole pursuit.

This goes back to guys who look great at work, because they work 70-80 hours a week to do what a normal person would do in 45 hours. Eventually they will get promoted to the point where they can't simply "work extra" to pass as normal, and everything falls apart. I want to avoid this.

Either I learn how to manage time and function at a high level now, or I figure something else out. Anyone else think this way? Of course, I might be singing a completely different tune in 2 months, LOL. I'll try to post back here how it went in case anybody in the future tries the same thing.

EDIT: BTW, I might add - I have personal reasons for really "testing" myself out. I'm a caretaker, and so what I can handle is particularly relevant when considering med school. I really want to make sure I'm up for the challenge - so this might make my situation a bit unique (also could be relevant in school interviews if they have doubts as to whether I can keep up).

 

[LabMonster]

I understand that a lot of this will be dependent on the professor - there were some engineering classes that I literally went to 3-4 times the whole semester and got an A, and others where you have to attend lecture because that's where half the test problems come from (bastards!!).

You nailed it - test questions, and not because they're on the test, but because they're important organic reactions.

What the hell is this Amadori rearrangement? It's the way that glucose attaches to hemoglobin, so it's important in management of DM. Some will say "how is not as important as understanding the cause and effect"

I will defer to the only other career engineer I know and say, it's all important.

You'll do well - but please consider your O-chem prof first, it make take until the first exam to discover whether he teaches from class or from the book.

I've had a few Organic chem profs, they have all LOVED to teach from their perspective, which could make book learning difficult.

I hope you have a great one 😉

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Am I setting myself up for failure here? I can drop a class (probably would drop Bio) for the first 3 weeks.

All thoughts welcome.

Well, the first thing you need is further education on how the system works. If you're planning on attending an allopathic school, you are honor-bound to report ALL drops on AMCAS, whether they're on your transcript or not - there are no "free drops" in your new educational objective.

If you can do it, great. I would agree with previous posters, though - orgo is just about the worst class you could pick to never go to lecture. I thought I was pretty smart, but there were some concepts that I would never have picked-up out of the book - and I'm a book learner - it took the professor's drawing things on the board three different ways and spinning little stick models around in class before the lights suddenly came on for me. If it matters, I hold a masters degree in Accounting and all-but-thesis on a second masters in computer science, so like you I came from a hard science and social science background.

I was like you... I maintained my professional employment while I did my pre-reqs - and there was one semester, in fact, where I had a 4 hour biology course and a 4 hour orgo course. But, I took everything at night classes in a lowly community college (with a Saturday morning lecture in orgo, come to think of it) with the rest of the working stiffs. I can't imagine deliberately taking a course that was scheduled at a time when I had to be at the office - I mean, what if your professor has a test review or a guest or some stupid reason he expects everyone to be there? Also, if you're never there, your professor is probably not going to be your friend when it comes to grading your tests and you can forget about a recommendation letter - honestly, you're going to get a recommendation letter from a professor who enjoyed your participation in class and who enjoyed your respecting him enough to show up for lectures - you are not going to get a letter by coming by the office and sucking up - these guys write dozens of med school letters every year and they're just not that gullible - they know why you're coming by the office to "chat" and I suspect that won't be nearly enough. And, the rumors are true - your orgo grades get weighed a little more heavily by many interviewers - some of orgo is actually applicable to medical school, and it's often considered a good test of your ability to perform abstract reasoning at the level required in med school.

It sounds like you've already charted your course and I wish you well. But, if you truly want an opinion from someone who's been there - you're a braver man that I would ever have been.

 

[Newmanium]

I already checked with the professor, and she said the syllabus will have the test dates on there - and there will be no quizzes/homework. As for a letter... eh, I will take genetics and biochem at a minimum, in addition to some other classes, so I figure I can get a letter from those if necessary. Somehow I'm not that confident of a great letter from a class of 120+, no matter how much I show up.

What you said about having to report any dropped classes... seriously? I did some searches on the forums, and the consensus seems to be that if it doesn't appear on the transcript, don't report it. At most schools there is a period of 2-3 weeks where many people are adding/dropping classes, and none of that gets on the transcript (that's still the administrative period). I have absolutely no memory, and worse, no records of any classes I've dropped in that period - how in the world could they expect us to report this? Technically you can "drop" a class before it starts as well, would they want to know about this as well? :-/


As it is, you guys have me considering dropping the biology sequence. I'm doing some fascinating research at work right now, so my bigger worry is that school starts to eat into that time. I'd hate to give up the chance to get published, maybe even do a first author or two.

My goal is for a top-20 or so allopathic medical school, so there's no room for error here. My alternative, if I ditch medical school, is some sort of a neuroscience grad program. The difficult thing is that organic is only offered during the day at our local school - unless I want to go to a community college, I'm stuck.

Thanks for the advice!!

 

[LabMonster]

I already checked with the professor, and she said the syllabus will have the test dates on there - and there will be no quizzes/homework. As for a letter... eh, I will take genetics and biochem at a minimum, in addition to some other classes, so I figure I can get a letter from those if necessary. Somehow I'm not that confident of a great letter from a class of 120+, no matter how much I show up.
Thanks for the advice!!

I actually got decent letters from classes of 120+ - physics and orgo!

Oh - the top 20 thing? Go for a good school, low cost (in state if you can) and program you really like. Programs are known by the graduates they put out - not US News.

 

[Newmanium]

As a follow-up, I eventually decided to just do organic this year. I really, really wanted to do Biology, but eventually realized it would be too much (the advice given here got me thinking). As much as I want to be capable of med school intensity *right now*, I realize it'd be stupid to start preparing for a marathon by trying to run 26 miles at the very beginning.

Organic has definitely taken plenty of my time (I have always messed up labs), so I would be completely panicked if I had both classes. Amazing how rusty I feel after just 2 years of being out of school - must be pretty painful for you guys with 10+ years of work experience.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Megan503]

Personally I think you are going to be overwhelmed. I wouldn't recommend skipping lecture - ochem is important, you want to understand the material. If at all possible I would try to cut down on your work load to focus on school more. School is way more important in the long run!

Good luck to you!!!!

 

[189362]

As a follow-up, I eventually decided to just do organic this year. I really, really wanted to do Biology, but eventually realized it would be too much (the advice given here got me thinking). As much as I want to be capable of med school intensity *right now*, I realize it'd be stupid to start preparing for a marathon by trying to run 26 miles at the very beginning.

Organic has definitely taken plenty of my time (I have always messed up labs), so I would be completely panicked if I had both classes. Amazing how rusty I feel after just 2 years of being out of school - must be pretty painful for you guys with 10+ years of work experience.

Thanks for the advice.

Good call, man. I had 18 credits last semester and tok a 10 week night course for EMTB and it ruined m social life and practicaly destroyed my sanity. Keep up the good work.

 

[MBHockey]

It won't be easy, but you can do it. I'm also an engineer and am enrolled in a post-bacc program and I can tell you that the only class I'm currently taking (out of Bio I, Genetics, and O-Chem) that comes near the rigors of real engineering curriculum is O-Chem. But it's quite easy in comparison to the classes I took in undergrad (fluid dynamics, thermo, heat transfer, partial differential equations) just to name a few. As long as you have a clear textbook with a solution manual lecture is unnecessary.

The only reason I say it won't be easy is because of the time constraints. The material is not bad (there is absolutely no math) and the few concepts that require understanding and not just straight memorization seem to constantly repeat themselves chapter after chapter.

Go for it.

Edit: Whoops, should have read the whole thread 🙂

Good luck to you!

 

[Nasem]

Well, I work as a software engineer fulltime, on top of that, I am taking a 300 level anatomy course along with Biology I, total of 7 credits but don't be fooled our anatomy course is taugh by the "College of Osteopathic Medicine and Human Medicine", first day of class the professor told us straight up, this is more like a 5 credit course but the department doesn't have the hours, so we are settling for just 3 credits, I know it sucks, if you dont' like it, feel free to drop....

My point being, those 2 courses are TEARING me up, they require ALOT of reading and ALOT of memorization, and splitting my mind up between work and study is a real challenge, I learn / memorize stuff today that I forget it in 2 weeks because my mind is just taking in too much..... My job is very mentally demanding so it really affects the way I study and how much I retain. Don't get me wrong now, I am managing to get 90%+ on every test, but I just hate studying for grades and not learning.... its such a horrible way to go to school.

I really hate working and doing part-time postbacc, its such a waist of learning time, I think after this semeste is over, I am going to change something drastically, maybe start to push fulltime as post-bacc

 

[student1799]

If you're planning on attending an allopathic school, you are honor-bound to report ALL drops on AMCAS, whether they're on your transcript or not - there are no "free drops" in your new educational objective.

This is not the impression I got from reading the AMCAS instruction manual. Yes, you have to report a dropped course for which you receive a "W," but if you drop a class during the initial grace period at the beginning of the semester (typically 2 or 3 weeks), I don't think AMCAS cares about that.

They only want to know about grades that are on your transcript (like a W), or grades that WERE on your transcript and were removed because of academic forgiveness, etc. A dropped course that would not have resulted in any kind of grade in the first place does not have to be reported to AMCAS.

 

[Nasem]

This is not the impression I got from reading the AMCAS instruction manual. Yes, you have to report a dropped course for which you receive a "W," but if you drop a class during the initial grace period at the beginning of the semester (typically 2 or 3 weeks), I don't think AMCAS cares about that.

They only want to know about grades that are on your transcript (like a W), or grades that WERE on your transcript and were removed because of academic forgiveness, etc. A dropped course that would not have resulted in any kind of grade in the first place does not have to be reported to AMCAS.

That was my underestanding as well... you are to report ALL your grades EXACTLY the way they appear on your transcripts (A, B, C, D, E, F, or W)... if you dropped a course BEFORE even the semester starts or after the first 2 or 3 days of the new semester, it will NOT show up on your transcripts and therefore, for some of us who took our undergrad SOOO long ago, how can we remember which classes we dropped at exactly what time.... I honestly don't remember those things

 

[Newmanium]

Well, I said I'd give an update on how it went...

Disaster - but due to outside circumstances. Big family problems made me withdraw Ochem and take the W (I decided against Biology at the beginning).

Otherwise it wasn't that bad, definitely takes some time. I liked the lab.

So... moral of the story - make sure your family doesn't have a crisis. Tough to deal with a setback, but I will say there's nothing like looking at defeat to find out whether you really want something or not. Me? I'm hoping to make another attempt next semester 🙂.