Fundamental differences between DO and MD

[circulus vitios]

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One fundamental difference is that they are spelled differently. MD is spelled with the letters "M" and "D." DO is spelled with the letters "D" and "O." But don't let this difference fool you because the two have something in common, the letter "D!"

 

[PhillDOc]

.

 

[NickNaylor]

Fundamental differences: M.D.s are real doctors lololol

 

[Parts Unknown]

Osteopathic colleges have residencies in every hyper-competitive specialty out there.

Like Rad-Onc?

 

[itellitlikeitis]

MANY PRE-allopathic students believe that an MD is an automatic ticket to whatever residency/specialty you want and if you are a DO you a) have a harder time becoming a certain type of physician or b) people won't ultimately hire you. This is false. This simply is not true. If you still believe this, you have NOT done the research, spoken to osteopathic physicians, or allowed yourself to overcome your own prejudice. I'm not saying you must believe what I believe, but at least make the effort to get the facts. Talk to or shadow a DO.

I don't think anyone is saying an MD is an automatic ticket into whatever residency/specialty- that obviously is not true. What they are saying is that some specialties (which is ultimately your job), like Rad Onc, are harder for DO's to match into.

I think there is some truth to the fact that it may be harder for DO's to match at certain locations or specialties because there are always threads like "What are DO friendly residency programs" that pop up (ie http://206.82.221.135/showthread.php?t=673657; see FutureInternist's post about how a school like UT-Dallas would not consider DOs applying to their residency programs) and even residency programs that have to highlight the fact that they are friendly to DO applicants (ie http://www.umm.edu/womenscenter/residency/faq.htm)

This doesn't mean it's impossible for a DO to match at a certain location and/or specialty for allopathic programs (since a large number decide to cross over and apply to allopathic programs instead of staying within DO residencies) , it's just going to be a steeper hill with stiff competition depending on what/where you want to be

 

[aspiringOSTEO]

1

 

[NickNaylor]

Excellent post 👍👍👍 Even though some jacka** pre-med is going to hop on here and argue that you are wrong because their advisor at a top 10 undergrad told them so. I still stand by what I posted earlier.

My advisor said that I can't go DO because they can't be surgeons and I want to be a surgeon.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

My advisor said that I can't go DO because they can't be surgeons and I want to be a surgeon.

pediatric neurosurgery

 

[TriagePreMed]

My advisor said that I can't go DO because they can't be surgeons and I want to be a surgeon.

Don't worry. It's a fact that through the OMT (Osteopathic Massage Therapy) you can massage any broken bone into being unbroken or even remove an appendix, so you'll be okay.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm an osteopathic MS3 and actually embarrassed that I'm replying to this thread, but it still amazes me that a group of smart people (although clearly I've overestimated) still believe some of the BS spoken on this topic.

MANY PRE-allopathic students believe that an MD is an automatic ticket to whatever residency/specialty you want and if you are a DO you a) have a harder time becoming a certain type of physician or b) people won't ultimately hire you. This is false. This simply is not true. If you still believe this, you have NOT done the research, spoken to osteopathic physicians, or allowed yourself to overcome your own prejudice. I'm not saying you must believe what I believe, but at least make the effort to get the facts. Talk to or shadow a DO.

Osteopathic colleges have residencies in every hyper-competitive specialty out there. As an MS3 I'm heavily considering ortho...3 years ago I was waitlisted at 4 allopathic schools. Had I gone to any of those schools I would be the same student in the same region of the country going for the same super-competitive specialty...only with an MD applying to MD ortho programs. As a DO, I will only apply to DO ortho programs. Right now it's hard to match ortho in both MD and DO programs. I won't go into this here, but I could even argue I have a better shot at getting a spot as a DO going for DO residencies in ortho...

Mediocre MD students are in the same boat as mediocre osteopathic students. Additionally, exceptional students from either school type will do fine (as displayed by some elite allopathic residency programs consistently taking DO's). I chuckle when I hear people say "wow Hopkins has DO residents"...like all programs should, they want the best physician for the position...and that doesn't always mean an MD. Remember that DO's make up only 12% of all US physicians (even though this number will double in a decade) so DO's are appropriately represented in most regions of the US where osteopathic medical colleges exist.

I'm going to stop there...my point in writing is just to urge people to get some facts through shadowing and objective reading...and NOT from your friends or 80 year old retired MD urologist grandfather who thinks we're eye doctors or chiropractors. Get over yourselves and remind yourself why you wanted to do this in the first place.

HEY! What do you think you're doing being all reasonable and intelligent in here? With your pretty well structured argument and what not! I should come down there and pat you on the back.
But yah excellent post.

 

[Geekchick921]

Fundamental differences: M.D.s are real doctors lololol

My advisor said that I can't go DO because they can't be surgeons and I want to be a surgeon.

🙄 Cole, will you give it a rest already?

 

[NickNaylor]

🙄 Cole, will you give it a rest already?

🙁

OK FINE. Just because I like you.

 

[Musclemass]

Why do most DO schools not operate regional/tertiary centers? And why do so many send students all over oblivion for clinical rotations? And why do they do so little research?

 

[Geekchick921]

🙁

OK FINE. Just because I like you.

Thank you. 🙂

Why do most DO schools not operate regional/tertiary centers? And why do so many send students all over oblivion for clinical rotations? And why do they do so little research?

The same reason all the dinosaurs died out?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

42?

lol@ mod pwn! you'll bounce back colelol

 

[willen101383]

Why do most DO schools not operate regional/tertiary centers? And why do so many send students all over oblivion for clinical rotations? And why do they do so little research?

Its a different focus my friend. Producing clinicians vs producing medical scientists. Something that seems to be forgotten a lot on this site is that you cannot paint all DO schools with the same brush. There are a whole bunch I would never attend due to the rotation situation...but the better DO schools dont have this issue. That would be like comparing Harvard to LLU or Howard...just because they issue the MD degree.

As far as not operating tertiary care centers...its because most DO schools arent based at universities...save for UMDNJ/MSU et al. It is expensive obviously and not something a stand alone college could really do.

This thread was going well...its a shame people have to post inflammatory remarks. There is a difference between talking about the negative aspects of the DO route (which there are some) and trying to belittle your future colleagues based on their life choices.

 

[WingedOx]

Why do most DO schools not operate regional/tertiary centers? And why do so many send students all over oblivion for clinical rotations? And why do they do so little research?

Not going to touch the first one, but as far as being sent all over oblivion, you need to get out more and do some research into the MD schools you're applying to.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Its a different focus my friend. Producing clinicians vs producing medical scientists.

It's actually a different set of accreditation standards. MD schools are accredited by the LCME, which essentially requires that students have access to rotation sites at academic hospitals (with residency programs) and opportunities for research.

DO schools are accredited by COCA, which does not have the same stipulations.

 

[Brachyury]

Why do most DO schools not operate regional/tertiary centers? And why do so many send students all over oblivion for clinical rotations? And why do they do so little research?

This is probably the only logical post in the entire thread


Re: another poster, LLU and Howard are probably the two least research heavy MD schools, but let's look at their funding:

In fiscal year 2009, LLU's medical school received $9,990,249 in NIH research dollars; Howard's med school received $10,720,491.

Now, let's look at several osteopathic schools in 2009
Des Moines University: $194,025
PCOM: $396,250
UMDNJ-osteopathic: $2,691,978
Virginia osteopathic: $419,925
A.T. Still: $407,508
Touro California: $665,454
Nova: $994,785
Midwestern: $193,277
New England: $716,762
Ohio: $663,750
Michigan State: $3,951,723

The only school that had significant funding was the University of North Texas at $16,018,123

Not only is research necessary to continue evidence-based medicine, but going to an institution with plentiful research opportunities can help you match into a competitive residency, not to mention that it can help you enter a career in academic medicine

Source: http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm

 

[patel2]

 

[Cleavername]

an MD gets an additional +2 dexterity but a -2 constitution while a DO has an enhanced armor roll.

This has been beaten to death here search "MD vs DO" or any variation of that and you will find what you're looking for.

u know ur life is bad when u know exactly what dexterity, constitution, and armor roll means...

 

[Geekchick921]

u know ur life is bad when u know exactly what dexterity, constitution, and armor roll means...

Or you just like gaming.

 

[Cleavername]

This is probably the only logical post in the entire thread


Re: another poster, LLU and Howard are probably the two least research heavy MD schools, but let's look at their funding:

In fiscal year 2009, LLU's medical school received $9,990,249 in NIH research dollars; Howard's med school received $10,720,491.

Now, let's look at several osteopathic schools in 2009
Des Moines University: $194,025
PCOM: $396,250
UMDNJ-osteopathic: $2,691,978
Virginia osteopathic: $419,925
A.T. Still: $407,508
Touro California: $665,454
Nova: $994,785
Midwestern: $193,277
New England: $716,762
Ohio: $663,750
Michigan State: $3,951,723

The only school that had significant funding was the University of North Texas at $16,018,123

Not only is research necessary to continue evidence-based medicine, but going to an institution with plentiful research opportunities can help you match into a competitive residency, not to mention that it can help you enter a career in academic medicine

Source: http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm

best link ever rofl.

columbia skool of med, 226 million dollars, rofl wtf. albany skool of med, 11 mill lol, no wonder the stats for matriculanted students are so different.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is probably the only logical post in the entire thread


Re: another poster, LLU and Howard are probably the two least research heavy MD schools, but let's look at their funding:

In fiscal year 2009, LLU's medical school received $9,990,249 in NIH research dollars; Howard's med school received $10,720,491.

Now, let's look at several osteopathic schools in 2009
Des Moines University: $194,025
PCOM: $396,250
UMDNJ-osteopathic: $2,691,978
Virginia osteopathic: $419,925
A.T. Still: $407,508
Touro California: $665,454
Nova: $994,785
Midwestern: $193,277
New England: $716,762
Ohio: $663,750
Michigan State: $3,951,723

The only school that had significant funding was the University of North Texas at $16,018,123

Not only is research necessary to continue evidence-based medicine, but going to an institution with plentiful research opportunities can help you match into a competitive residency, not to mention that it can help you enter a career in academic medicine

Source: http://report.nih.gov/award/trends/FindOrg.cfm

Most people who go DO are interested primarily in being practitioners. It's analogous to the PhD v.s Psy.D situation, where PhD's are trained in research methodology while Psy.D's are trained primarily towards being practitioners.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Most people who go DO are interested primarily in being practitioners. It's analogous to the PhD v.s Psy.D situation, where PhD's are trained in research methodology while Psy.D's are trained primarily towards being practitioners.

so are most people who go MD

 

[willen101383]

It's actually a different set of accreditation standards. MD schools are accredited by the LCME, which essentially requires that students have access to rotation sites at academic hospitals (with residency programs) and opportunities for research.

DO schools are accredited by COCA, which does not have the same stipulations.

Interesting. I never actually have read into the accreditation standards of either body. I do know that DO schools focus on producing clinicians however, and that COCA policy must stem from that. Are all LCME accredited rotation sites required to be at academic centers? Or most? Or how does that work? Im a nontrad who has been working as an allied health professional for many years since college so I am not totally in the blind here...but how would you say the case "diversity" compares between a mid tier MD teaching hospital (lets say Drexel Med/Temple bc I am in Philly) and a community regional referral center with 800+ beds/level 1 center like Abington Memorial which is one PCOM's rotation sites? I know not all DO schools have large community hospitals to rotate in however...but this is the only situation that I will be dealing with.

 

[willen101383]

so are most people who go MD

I think he is referencing what I had mentioned...that DOs have a higher proportion of students being clinicians...vs MD schools have more people going into research...even if that number is small its still larger than DO.

I know my school (PCOM) has some DO/PhD pathways to take...but I know they arent as popular as MD schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

so are most people who go MD

True enough, but MD schools do usually have a good deal of people doing MSTP and or others who are interested in academic medicine. There's probably more variety of interests rather than DO for the most part has been traditionally primary care prone or at least practitioner prone. Research just isn't really in the school's interests as is the case in MD schools.

 

[ozzi22]

major difference- D.O's are shy to say that there are doctors for some reason which i don't know so don't ask.

 

[willen101383]

major difference- D.O's are shy to say that there are doctors for some reason which i don't know so don't ask.

lol wut?

 

[Kaustikos]

lol wut?

He's talkin' bout dat dem dere Osteopathic Dark Magic

 

[PhillDOc]

I don't think anyone is saying an MD is an automatic ticket into whatever residency/specialty- that obviously is not true. What they are saying is that some specialties (which is ultimately your job), like Rad Onc, are harder for DO's to match into.

I think there is some truth to the fact that it may be harder for DO's to match at certain locations or specialties because there are always threads like "What are DO friendly residency programs" that pop up (ie http://206.82.221.135/showthread.php?t=673657; see FutureInternist's post about how a school like UT-Dallas would not consider DOs applying to their residency programs) and even residency programs that have to highlight the fact that they are friendly to DO applicants (ie http://www.umm.edu/womenscenter/residency/faq.htm)

This doesn't mean it's impossible for a DO to match at a certain location and/or specialty for allopathic programs (since a large number decide to cross over and apply to allopathic programs instead of staying within DO residencies) , it's just going to be a steeper hill with stiff competition depending on what/where you want to be

Fair enough. I don't believe there are any osteopathic rad onc programs...and out of curiosity, what percentage of US allopathic grads apply to rad onc programs? I can guarantee you that had I gotten into one of the four allopathic schools at which I was waitlisted I would have an infinitely small increase in my chances at matching rad onc...not nearly enough to not have considered osteopathic schools or consider giving up my pursuit of medicine altogether. Again, the purpose of my post was simply to urge people to see what's out there. People with the viewpoint often expressed on this forum regarding DO's will very likely change their opinions should they seek facts objectively.

I will add this addendum to my post above: If you are only interested in rad onc you should try to go to an allopathic school.

I appreciate your above threads, but the idea that a few allopathic residencies are or are not "DO friendly" is meaningless and trivial. So I won't apply to UT-Dallas...also I remind you, this is purely prejudice and not legally founded.

For clarification, DO friendly residencies are allopathic programs that typically accept osteopathic graduates. We (DO's) have the "luxury" of applying to allo programs that we already know to accept DO students OR just applying to osteopathic residencies. That's why this DO friendly "issue" comes up in threads...because a lot of osteopathic grads CHOOSE to ONLY apply to allopathic programs...it's not because we need a secret password to fill out their ERAS.

 

[Longshanks]

That's why this DO friendly "issue" comes up in threads...because a lot of osteopathic grads CHOOSE to ONLY apply to allopathic programs...it's not because we need a secret password to fill out their ERAS.

Wait... you mean I wasted my time learning the secret handshake already?



(otherwise thanks for the useful posts 😀 )

 

[Parts Unknown]

Interesting. I never actually have read into the accreditation standards of either body. I do know that DO schools focus on producing clinicians however, and that COCA policy must stem from that.

That interpretation depends on one's level of cynicism. An alternative explanation is simple expediency. The number of academic medical centers in the country is finite, and most of them already have affiliations with existing institutions. COCA let's a given school take the easier route of placing M3 and M4 students in community settings, which are not so hard to come by.

But therein lies the rub, as one can argue that clerkships in mainly community, outpatient settings leave the students at a disadvantage if they attempt to match into anything other than community programs with heavy outpatient emphasis.

Are all LCME accredited rotation sites required to be at academic centers? Or most? Or how does that work?

You can download the latest accreditation standards here. See IS-12 at the bottom of page 4.

Im a nontrad who has been working as an allied health professional for many years since college so I am not totally in the blind here...but how would you say the case "diversity" compares between a mid tier MD teaching hospital (lets say Drexel Med/Temple bc I am in Philly) and a community regional referral center with 800+ beds/level 1 center like Abington Memorial which is one PCOM's rotation sites? I know not all DO schools have large community hospitals to rotate in however...but this is the only situation that I will be dealing with.

I don't know how to answer this question with any specificity, as my experience with Drexel, Temple, and PCOM is quite limited.

Obviously not all clinical rotations are created equal, and having adequate case volume and variety is only one important factor. Rotations can be very observational, or they can be hands-on. You can be given incrementally increasing responsibility, or not. You can be part of a team or one-on-one. If you are doing a rotation as part of an established, long-term training curriculum, things tend to be a lot more "turnkey," as there should already be a work flow and defined teaching expectations. You can contrast these to the "Who the Hell are you?" rotations, of which everyone has at least one.

 

[itellitlikeitis]

Fair enough. I don't believe there are any osteopathic rad onc programs...and out of curiosity, what percentage of US allopathic grads apply to rad onc programs? I can guarantee you that had I gotten into one of the four allopathic schools at which I was waitlisted I would have an infinitely small increase in my chances at matching rad onc...not nearly enough to not have considered osteopathic schools or consider giving up my pursuit of medicine altogether. Again, the purpose of my post was simply to urge people to see what's out there. People with the viewpoint often expressed on this forum regarding DO's will very likely change their opinions should they seek facts objectively.

I will add this addendum to my post above: If you are only interested in rad onc you should try to go to an allopathic school.

I appreciate your above threads, but the idea that a few allopathic residencies are or are not "DO friendly" is meaningless and trivial. So I won't apply to UT-Dallas...also I remind you, this is purely prejudice and not legally founded.

For clarification, DO friendly residencies are allopathic programs that typically accept osteopathic graduates. We (DO's) have the "luxury" of applying to allo programs that we already know to accept DO students OR just applying to osteopathic residencies. That's why this DO friendly "issue" comes up in threads...because a lot of osteopathic grads CHOOSE to ONLY apply to allopathic programs...it's not because we need a secret password to fill out their ERAS.

This article paints a different picture
http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/Publications/TheNewPhysician/2004/tnp103.aspx

For some, it's not necessarily a luxury but a necessity because of the lack of DO spots

These types of threads bring out two extreme groups and I just want to put out some of the concerns for a person who may be deciding between the two types of programs. I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, an outstanding applicant will do great regardless of where they end up, but there are factors to consider like anything and everything else whether its between DO and MD or between schools within either programs.

 

[willen101383]

That interpretation depends on one's level of cynicism. An alternative explanation is simple expediency. The number of academic medical centers in the country is finite, and most of them already have affiliations with existing institutions. COCA let's a given school take the easier route of placing M3 and M4 students in community settings, which are not so hard to come by.

But therein lies the rub, as one can argue that clerkships in mainly community, outpatient settings leave the students at a disadvantage if they attempt to match into anything other than community programs with heavy outpatient emphasis.



You can download the latest accreditation standards here. See IS-12 at the bottom of page 4.



I don't know how to answer this question with any specificity, as my experience with Drexel, Temple, and PCOM is quite limited.

Obviously not all clinical rotations are created equal, and having adequate case volume and variety is only one important factor. Rotations can be very observational, or they can be hands-on. You can be given incrementally increasing responsibility, or not. You can be part of a team or one-on-one. If you are doing a rotation as part of an established, long-term training curriculum, things tend to be a lot more "turnkey," as there should already be a work flow and defined teaching expectations. You can contrast these to the "Who the Hell are you?" rotations, of which everyone has at least one.

Cool thanks for the thought out reply. I have high hopes..well see how it goes. PCOM doesnt have a main hospital center, but they do have a bunch of healthcare centers for the purposes of rotations in IM/FM. So well see how it goes once I start rotations.

Glad this thread is back on topic. As ive said the DO route definitely does have its downsides..and there are things I will definitely discuss in threads that are respectful and not existing for the purposes of DO bashing.

 

[Geekchick921]

Interesting. I never actually have read into the accreditation standards of either body. I do know that DO schools focus on producing clinicians however, and that COCA policy must stem from that. Are all LCME accredited rotation sites required to be at academic centers? Or most? Or how does that work? Im a nontrad who has been working as an allied health professional for many years since college so I am not totally in the blind here...but how would you say the case "diversity" compares between a mid tier MD teaching hospital (lets say Drexel Med/Temple bc I am in Philly) and a community regional referral center with 800+ beds/level 1 center like Abington Memorial which is one PCOM's rotation sites? I know not all DO schools have large community hospitals to rotate in however...but this is the only situation that I will be dealing with.

I can't answer your questions about accreditation, but I can offer some personal experience with the area. I live a few minutes from AMH, and work at another hospital close to it. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the area. It is a large hospital, that gets a LOT of patients from Montco, as well as Philly (though I would say most of the Philadelphians are coming to the maternity ward(s, yeah, there are two) which get a LOT of traffic). It is also a level 2 trauma center. Personally, I see it get recommended a lot as the best hospital in the immediate area (that is not counting the big teaching hospitals in the city).

That said, I am pretty certain you are going to see more diverse cases in an inner-city hospital. There are certainly more GSWs and other kinds of trauma rolling into Temple, Einstein, or any of the downtown hospitals' ERs than AMH's, even if AMH is technically on the same street as Einstein and Temple, just much farther north in a suburban county. I'm sure you'll also see more people that have waited a lot longer to see a doctor and have now gotten much sicker.

If Abington's merit as a rotation site has you concerned, let me point out that Temple, Jefferson and Drexel also list AMH as one of their clinical sites. In fact, PCOM shares quite a few clinical sites with some or all of those three other schools (they also list Pennsylvania Hospital as an affiliate as well), including some within the city in less than savory parts of town (which I think is kind of a good thing for the reasons in the previous paragraph). It seems like there's not really any reason to think you can't get a comparable clinical experience to the MD schools around here.

 

[willen101383]

I can't answer your questions about accreditation, but I can offer some personal experience with the area. I live a few minutes from AMH, and work at another hospital close to it. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the area. It is a large hospital, that gets a LOT of patients from Montco, as well as Philly (though I would say most of the Philadelphians are coming to the maternity ward(s, yeah, there are two) which get a LOT of traffic). It is also a level 2 trauma center. Personally, I see it get recommended a lot as the best hospital in the immediate area (that is not counting the big teaching hospitals in the city).

That said, I am pretty certain you are going to see more diverse cases in an inner-city hospital. There are certainly more GSWs and other kinds of trauma rolling into Temple, Einstein, or any of the downtown hospitals' ERs than AMH's, even if AMH is technically on the same street as Einstein and Temple, just much farther north in a suburban county. I'm sure you'll also see more people that have waited a lot longer to see a doctor and have now gotten much sicker.

If Abington's merit as a rotation site has you concerned, let me point out that Temple, Jefferson and Drexel also list AMH as one of their clinical sites. In fact, PCOM shares quite a few clinical sites with some or all of those three other schools (they also list Pennsylvania Hospital as an affiliate as well), including some within the city in less than savory parts of town (which I think is kind of a good thing for the reasons in the previous paragraph). It seems like there's not really any reason to think you can't get a comparable clinical experience to the MD schools around here.

You must be my neighbor then 🙂..I live in the Abington side of Elkins Park so I am very familiar with the area...ive been here for 4 years now. I know that PCOMs education is pretty much on par with the other area schools based on what area docs have told me about PCOM grads...I was just interested in hearing an attendings opinion on cases in academic vs community larger hospitals. You are headed to temple IIRC right?


EDIT: Didnt know AMH was lvl 2/665 beds...I upped their "stats" a bit. But yeah I know that AMH is pretty highly regarded in the area.

 

[Geekchick921]

You live VERY close to me. I am in Jenkintown. And yup, Temple is pretty likely. As it is it became my first choice after interviewing there. The only other school I'm still looking into is Jefferson, and if I get accepted there as well, I'll be waiting to see what kind of financial aide package I get offered (though Temple will probably be better than Jefferson, based on what I've heard). I've worked with a lot of PCOM graduates here at this hospital (been treated by some, too, including the doc that delivered my daughter). They are awesome. 🙂

And I get your question now. I'd be interested to see if anyone chimes in on that.

 

[Slowpoke]

an MD gets an additional +2 dexterity but a -2 constitution while a DO has an enhanced armor roll.

This has been beaten to death here search "MD vs DO" or any variation of that and you will find what you're looking for.

I've calculated the numbers and have thus far rendered your numbers somewhat correct. Although I think the extra +stamina gain from rolling MD may be offsetting of the enhanced armor gain from DO.

Although I do feel that DO's get a +Resistance to ignorance a lot sooner than say MDs.

overall, its a matter of preference.

 

[WingedOx]

Well to clarify about Abington, we (Jeff) send abount 4 people there a year. I think it's one of those sites that we are still kinda testing out. But that's not to say we don't send people to community hospitals around the area. Jefferson and the 4 Main Line Health hospitals are all basically one corporate entity, and we have students in Reading (which has become quite popular), a ton in Christiana, Virtua, and a few other random ones.

 

[willen101383]

Well to clarify about Abington, we (Jeff) send abount 4 people there a year. I think it's one of those sites that we are still kinda testing out. But that's not to say we don't send people to community hospitals around the area. Jefferson and the 4 Main Line Health hospitals are all basically one corporate entity, and we have students in Reading (which has become quite popular), a ton in Christiana, Virtua, and a few other random ones.

Cool. Good to know that other area schools use community hospitals. AMH seems to be pretty highly regarded in the community up here in Montgomery County. I hope to get to rotate there as its literally a 5 minute drive for me.

 

[Parts Unknown]

People with the viewpoint often expressed on this forum regarding DO's will very likely change their opinions should they seek facts objectively.

Here are a few readily available facts from 2010:
Number of allopathic orthopedic surgery programs in US: 159
Number of residency spots offered in match: 656
Number of MD student applicants: 801
Number filled on match day: 653
Number filled by MD students: 598 (74.6% match rate)
Number filled by DOs: 3

Number of AOA-approved orthopedic surgery programs in US: 34
Number with at least one resident: 32
Total number of OGME1 residents: 84
Percentage of programs in Michigan or Ohio: 50%

I bring this up to point out a rather important caveat that you left out of your original post. It is true that DOs have access to AOA-approved residency positions in most competitive specialties, but when you look at the actual training programs themselves, in general you will find they are fewer, smaller, geographically limited, and less academic than their allopathic counterparts.

Whether that is good, bad, or indifferent will depend on the individual user.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Here are a few readily available facts from 2010:
Number of allopathic orthopedic surgery programs in US: 159
Number of residency spots offered in match: 656
Number of MD student applicants: 801
Number filled on match day: 653
Number filled by MD students: 598 (74.6% match rate)
Number filled by DOs: 3

Number of AOA-approved orthopedic surgery programs in US: 34
Number with at least one resident: 32
Total number of OGME1 residents: 84
Percentage of programs in Michigan or Ohio: 50%

I bring this up to point out a rather important caveat that you left out of your original post. It is true that DOs have access to AOA-approved residency positions in most competitive specialties, but when you look at the actual training programs themselves, in general you will find they are fewer, smaller, geographically limited, and less academic than their allopathic counterparts.

Whether that is good, bad, or indifferent will depend on the individual user.

Definitely won't argue that the regional preference is annoying (DO residencies, as you pointed out, are highly concentrated in the Midwest), however, because there is data on the number of MD applicants per Ortho spot, but not the number of DO applicants per number of DO Ortho spot, wanted to throw something out there:

According the the AAMC, there were 16, 838 MD grads in 2009-2010 and according to Wiki (sorry, don't have time to dig up good data) around 3,300 DO students in 2010. Taking into account the 656 ACGME spots versus (what I assume means) 84 potential AOA spots, it looks like the total ratios of graduating seniors versus number of spots comes out to be (ie bulk chances of matching ortho):

3.9% for MD going ACGME

2.6% for DO going AOA

Granted, this is taking a few things with a bit of liberty here:

-the raw numbers
-the idea of simply matching a spot (not based on location)
-the assumption that each AOA program with an OGME-1 ortho resident takes another one next year
-not considering the rate of DO expansion versus number of new OGME spots opening up each year

However, I think it goes to show that this discussions become a bit asinine when looking at the raw chances of getting one of these spots in general. I'm not going to sit here any deny that the raw numbers are better for MD students trying to match ACGME in general, nor will I comment on program quality or location (because I'm not too familiar with either, but most ortho gunners I know would probably go/do whatever it took to be an orthopod).

I guess my point is that one can nitpick these numbers all day, but, like someone said before, if you aren't a good applicant and have the right stuff, it's kind of a moot point anyway. As you can tell, the odds are in your favor for ACGME at an MD program (why shouldn't they be), but I don't think it's fair/safe to say that sliding into an MD program, scoring average, and not putting the effort forth is going to allow you to moonwalk into an ACGME ortho program (ortho has an average USMLE of what, 235 - 240 and based on your numbers it looks like almost 1 in 4 stellar US MD seniors didn't match). In the same sense, I don't think it's fair to say that the DO superstar has no chance at ortho (and the match lists agree).

Like you said before, almost everything is anecdotal to a point. I really wish someone could find the number of DO students who applied for the (presumed) 84 spots, because that would clarify quite a bit more. Also, if I misinterpreted anything, feel free to clarify.

 

[WingedOx]

well, if you're going to be an Ortho resident, you might as well live in the cloudy Midwest. It's not like you're going to see the sunlight for 5 years anywhere anyway.

 

[JaggerPlate]

well, if you're going to be an Ortho resident, you might as well live in the cloudy Midwest. It's not like you're going to see the sunlight for 5 years anywhere anyway.

Why would you want to go outside when you get to fix bones with power tools inside all day???

 

[RogueUnicorn]

me need bigger mallet!!

 

[Parts Unknown]

, but I don't think it's fair/safe to say that sliding into an MD program, scoring average, and not putting the effort forth is going to allow you to moonwalk into an ACGME ortho program

I don't think I have ever seen this sentiment expressed on these forums.

Like you said before, almost everything is anecdotal to a point. I really wish someone could find the number of DO students who applied for the (presumed) 84 spots, because that would clarify quite a bit more. Also, if I misinterpreted anything, feel free to clarify.

I don't think almost everything is anecdotal; we do have quite a bit of data from the NRMP. But yes, it would be very helpful if the bums at natmatch would publish more numbers.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't think I have ever seen this sentiment expressed on these forums.

Ehh ... in so many words, I have. Many times, people assume that MD school = automatic derm, integrated PRS, ENT, etc, and, from what I can gather, this just simply isn't the case. If you want ROADS from either MD or DO, you need to be good, get good, or give up. Granted, from a strict numbers game (as pointed out), your odds are better for US ACGME coming from US MD. No argument, rants about the "DO difference" etc from me on that one. However, my whole point is that it's highly unlikely period (2.6% versus 3.9% in my earlier example), and the data on the number of DO applicants for the AOA spots is too sparse.

I don't think almost everything is anecdotal; we do have quite a bit of data from the NRMP. But yes, it would be very helpful if the bums at natmatch would publish more numbers.

It's the AOA side that's lacking ... all we have are # of DO/AOA programs and spots, but not the number of applicants per spots, average Step I scores, and number matched versus non-matched like they provide on the ACGME side of the coin.

 

[Stronghopeful]

So DO's will not be able to land residencies as easily as MD's? Hypothetically speaking, what do you do if you don't land a residency? Are you screwed career-wise?

Gotta be concerned right now as a sophomore in undergrad, and gotta get my **** together