Funding after switching to a different specialty PGY-2

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

PMR2Anesthesia

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
Messages
11
Reaction score
4
I'm currently a PGY-2 PM&R resident switching into a PGY-2 year anesthesia (CA-1) starting July. I just learned about the CMS funding issues with switching specialties midway. I have some questions that I hope someone will enlighten me with 🙂

1. Does this issue depend on the hospital I'm going to? How do I tell which hospitals don't go through CMS funding for residents? I'm currently at a hospital where as far as I know the residents's salary is being paid by the hospitals we're rotating through, does this mean that it's not through CMS?

2. What does 1 year less of funding mean for the residency? Does it mean that I won't get paid or the program/faculty gets paid less as well? I'm willing to work a year of residency for less pay if that's what it takes.

3. I already signed the renewal contract for my current specialty for 2013-2014, if I decide to switch, what will be my repercussions?

4. Will going through the NRMP/SOAP again "reset" the clock of CMS funding? How about out-of-the-match positions?

5. A unrelated question. Why do programs accepting CA-1 applicants require current PD letters? It's not a requirement for the current PD's approval for a resident to switch, is it just an act of courtesy? I haven't told my PD yet that I am leaving, as I am not sure if I will match for sure. But if the PD is unhappy that I am leaving, what are some possible actions they can take against me?
 
I'm currently a PGY-2 PM&R resident switching into a PGY-2 year anesthesia (CA-1) starting July. I just learned about the CMS funding issues with switching specialties midway. I have some questions that I hope someone will enlighten me with 🙂

1. Does this issue depend on the hospital I'm going to? How do I tell which hospitals don't go through CMS funding for residents? I'm currently at a hospital where as far as I know the residents's salary is being paid by the hospitals we're rotating through, does this mean that it's not through CMS?

It's a complicated issue, and believe it or not some debate about exactly what happens. But, in a nutshell, when you start training in PM&R you get assigned full funding for the length it would take to train in PM&R - 4 years (prelim, plus 3 years of PM&R). Every year "counts", so you'll have used two years at the end of this year. You'll have 3 Anesthesia years to go, but only 2 years of full funding left. So the last year will be reduced funding.

You can read all about it here: https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Medicare Payments For Graduate Med Ed.pdf

All of the hospitals you work at probably bill CMS. Even if they don't, the time counts anyway (so it doesn't really matter). And it doesn't matter where you are going (although if you somehow go to a program that doesn't bill Medicare at all, then it doesn't matter. But I've never heard of such a thing).

2. What does 1 year less of funding mean for the residency? Does it mean that I won't get paid or the program/faculty gets paid less as well? I'm willing to work a year of residency for less pay if that's what it takes.

See the link above. DME funding is decreased by 50%. IME funding is the full 100%. But, each institution has a maximum cap -- the maximum amount it is allowed to bill Medicare. If your institution is over the cap, then this doesn't matter at all -- you become one of the people they don't bill for.

You cannot be paid less than your colleagues -- that's a violation of labor laws.

3. I already signed the renewal contract for my current specialty for 2013-2014, if I decide to switch, what will be my repercussions?

This could be a big problem, or not a problem at all. You signed a contract. Chances are, it tells you exactly what happens if you don't follow it. What will happen if you violate the contract? Several options:

1. Nothing. Your PD decides not to care, let's you go, end of story.
2. Your program decides to enforce the contract. Whatever damages are in the contract, you have to address -- perhaps you have to pay for your replacement cost, etc.
3. Your contract doesn't state what the repercussions are. In that case, your program would need to take you to court. Chances are, they will not do this. They could give you an unsatisfactory rating in professionalism, and that could void credit for the year (but perhaps not an issue, if you're training in anesthesia).
4. Your program could report you to the NRMP as a match violator. In order to participate in the match, you stipulated that you were free to work in July 2013. If you already signed a contract, you were untruthful about this. This is a match violation. You could lose your match spot, be barred from future matches, and then get fired from your current program also. All of this costs your program zero, since all they have to do is complain to the NRMP to start an investigation. It appears I am incorrect in this point. The match agreement only stipulates that it is a match violation to match to a program when you have a concurrent match elsewhere -- i.e. if you match to a prelim/advanced combination, it would be a match violation to try to match the next year unless your advanced match had been waived. If you have signed a contract for the next year, the NRMP doesn't care.

BUT, I am confused. If you are in the NRMP match for PGY-2/CA-1 positions, you realize that almost all of those are matching for July 2014, right? Any "Advanced" position to which you applied is for 2014. If you applied to Anesthesia Categorical programs, those will start July 2013 but not as a CA-1, you'll be an intern again. Unless you applied to "R" programs which would be PGY-2 positions for July 2013. I'm interested to know whether programs really registered these spots (as this is a new deal for the NRMP).

4. Will going through the NRMP/SOAP again "reset" the clock of CMS funding? How about out-of-the-match positions?

No and No. Funding is fixed, regardless of match or how you get the spot. There is no way to reset your clock.

5. A unrelated question. Why do programs accepting CA-1 applicants require current PD letters? It's not a requirement for the current PD's approval for a resident to switch, is it just an act of courtesy? I haven't told my PD yet that I am leaving, as I am not sure if I will match for sure. But if the PD is unhappy that I am leaving, what are some possible actions they can take against me?

We ask for a letter because I want to make sure that you're not failing out of your current program. I'd like to know that your performance is fine, and that you're switching to truly change fields out of interest, not because you're about to get fired.

Which again confuses me. If you've applied and are awaiting the match, and programs require a PD letter, how could your PD not know? Rhetorical, feel free to answer if you wish.
 
Last edited:
See the link above. DME funding is decreased by 50%. IME funding is the full 100%. But, each institution has a maximum cap -- the maximum amount it is allowed to bill Medicare. If your institution is over the cap, then this doesn't matter at all -- you become one of the people they don't bill for.

You cannot be paid less than your colleagues -- that's a violation of labor laws.

Is there any way around this? Looks like this puts me at a significant disadvantage compared to those who are fully funded. Would it make any difference if it's out of the match? I don't understand how do programs take residents from other specialties even if they're practically done with their 1st specialty already.

This could be a big problem, or not a problem at all. You signed a contract. Chances are, it tells you exactly what happens if you don't follow it. What will happen if you violate the contract? Several options:

1. Nothing. Your PD decides not to care, let's you go, end of story.
2. Your program decides to enforce the contract. Whatever damages are in the contract, you have to address -- perhaps you have to pay for your replacement cost, etc.
3. Your contract doesn't state what the repercussions are. In that case, your program would need to take you to court. Chances are, they will not do this. They could give you an unsatisfactory rating in professionalism, and that could void credit for the year (but perhaps not an issue, if you're training in anesthesia).
4. Your program could report you to the NRMP as a match violator. In order to participate in the match, you stipulated that you were free to work in July 2013. If you already signed a contract, you were untruthful about this. This is a match violation. You could lose your match spot, be barred from future matches, and then get fired from your current program also. All of this costs your program zero, since all they have to do is complain to the NRMP to start an investigation.

BUT, I am confused. If you are in the NRMP match for PGY-2/CA-1 positions, you realize that almost all of those are matching for July 2014, right? Any "Advanced" position to which you applied is for 2014. If you applied to Anesthesia Categorical programs, those will start July 2013 but not as a CA-1, you'll be an intern again. Unless you applied to "R" programs which would be PGY-2 positions for July 2013. I'm interested to know whether programs really registered these spots (as this is a new deal for the NRMP).

I'm currently ranking only the programs with the R designations, so that I start July this year. If anything, I was planning to use the SOAP to find open programs to scramble into. I didn't realize that signing the contract would be a violation of the NRMP rules. I actually did a year of my PGY-2 so that I don't violate the rules, kind of disappointing to hear about it now. Who would be able to start this investigation, any staff or just the PD? Perhaps I need to have a heart to heart conversation with my PD why I can't stay in rehab and perhaps help find a replacement for my vacancy.

We ask for a letter because I want to make sure that you're not failing out of your current program. I'd like to know that your performance is fine, and that you're switching to truly change fields out of interest, not because you're about to get fired.

Which again confuses me. If you've applied and are awaiting the match, and programs require a PD letter, how could your PD not know? Rhetorical, feel free to answer if you wish.

I had my PGY-1 PD write a letter explaining why I wanted to go in anesthesia. At that time I didn't apply through the NRMP match because it would be violating the rules if I didn't do at least 45 days of my PGY-2 year. My PGY-1 PD was supportive of my switching, but I am not so sure if my current PD would. I feel like this is a fine line that I'm walking between "all in" into anesthesia and completely give up my PM&R spot versus a cautious approach to prevent me to losing my current position in case I don't find one. I just don't know how to approach my PD regarding this.
 
Is there any way around this? Looks like this puts me at a significant disadvantage compared to those who are fully funded. Would it make any difference if it's out of the match? I don't understand how do programs take residents from other specialties even if they're practically done with their 1st specialty already.

No, there is no way around this. The funding rules are what they are. That said, many programs take people with less funding. At big institutions the funding issues are managed by the GME office, while other issues are managed by the programs. So, if I match someone who has less than 100% funding, nothing really happens. So it's not as big a deal as it seems. That said, with funding for everything becoming tighter and the 2% sequester starting next week, perhaps we will see this be more of an issue.

I'm currently ranking only the programs with the R designations, so that I start July this year. If anything, I was planning to use the SOAP to find open programs to scramble into. I didn't realize that signing the contract would be a violation of the NRMP rules. I actually did a year of my PGY-2 so that I don't violate the rules, kind of disappointing to hear about it now. Who would be able to start this investigation, any staff or just the PD? Perhaps I need to have a heart to heart conversation with my PD why I can't stay in rehab and perhaps help find a replacement for my vacancy.

I am intrigued to see how many R spots there will be in the match.

I am having some trouble understanding how you wouldn't see that this is wrong. It's like signing a lease for your apartment for the next year, and still looking to buy a condo, figuring that you can just drop the apartment when it's convenient for you -- forgetting that there are many other people involved. I'm currently working on the schedule for next year's residents -- if one of them comes to me in 2 weeks and tells me that they've matched somewhere else, and all the work I've done building the schedule is wasted, I'll be quite upset. Note that one resident has been honest with me and might not be here next year -- I'm building the schedule without her, but happy to add her back in later -- adding someone is a piece of cake compared with filling a bunch of holes.

I had my PGY-1 PD write a letter explaining why I wanted to go in anesthesia. At that time I didn't apply through the NRMP match because it would be violating the rules if I didn't do at least 45 days of my PGY-2 year. My PGY-1 PD was supportive of my switching, but I am not so sure if my current PD would. I feel like this is a fine line that I'm walking between "all in" into anesthesia and completely give up my PM&R spot versus a cautious approach to prevent me to losing my current position in case I don't find one. I just don't know how to approach my PD regarding this.

I am surprised that programs are seriously looking at you without speaking to your PD, but I'm certain it happens. Honestly, this is like breaking up with an SO. It hurts, and it sucks. And it's scary, as you'll always wonder whether the next will be "better". Invariably, the next is "different". At this point, the damage is done. Still, I might talk to your PD now. If you're miserable in PM&R, you have to wonder whether you even want to finish (especially remembering that the more PM&R training you do, the less funding you'll have for something else). At this point it's unlikely your PD will kick you out if you don't match.
 
I'm currently in a similar situation, switching specialties.

I had spent some time last spring contacting programs I was interested in in the new specialty to see if they would consider an applicant who doesn't have the full 3 years of GME funding for new specialty training (I have two years) Sadly, some of the programs I was most interested in had a strict policy that they would not accept anyone who didn't have the full 3 years of funding.

It took some time and was a bit difficult- many of the program coordinators didn't understand the question I was asking. They thought I was asking for a guarantee of an interview. I was just looking to ensure my application would automatically be rejected based on funding years left. This helped me narrow my applications. I wound up not interviewing at as many programs as I had hoped. But one of the places I interviewed at I even had an open conversation about the GME funding.

Even if you didn't do this, you can probably presume that the programs who interviewed you are aware of the funding issues and willing to take you anyway.
 
I am surprised that programs are seriously looking at you without speaking to your PD, but I'm certain it happens. Honestly, this is like breaking up with an SO. It hurts, and it sucks. And it's scary, as you'll always wonder whether the next will be "better". Invariably, the next is "different". At this point, the damage is done. Still, I might talk to your PD now. If you're miserable in PM&R, you have to wonder whether you even want to finish (especially remembering that the more PM&R training you do, the less funding you'll have for something else). At this point it's unlikely your PD will kick you out if you don't match.

I heard of many stories of residents talking to understanding PD's who support them through this. I've also heard of many horrors of what PD's can do. Unfortunately, my gut tells me that my PD isn't one of those supportive ones. She might not go out of her way to make me miserable, but I want to maintain a good relationship with her in case I don't match in anesthesia this year. I don't want to go through 2 more years of PM&R and be that resident who wanted to leave but came back because I didn't find a spot.

I would love to have a heart to heart with my PD. Just tell me a way and I'll do it.
 
I would love to have a heart to heart with my PD. Just tell me a way and I'll do it.

"Hey Dr. Jones...I'm not sure that specialty X (PMR...obvs) is right for me. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it and I think specialty Y (Gas...duh) is where my real passion lies. I've really appreciated the training I've gotten in your program and I think it will make me a better gas passer. I've decided to apply for Gas spots for next year and wanted to let you know. I'm totally committed to providing the best possible care for my patients through the end of my time in your program but I wanted to let you know that I'll be moving on next year."

How hard was that?

You can't control his/her reaction. Don't try.
 
I've seen a lot of former Anesthesiologists in PM&R. I've never heard of someone switching from PM&R to Anesthesiology.

You mean people who have switched from anesthesia into PMR? I don't see how an anesthesiologist could otherwise be in PMR. I'm sure it's possible to switch from just about anything into something else with a few exceptions.
 
I am having some trouble understanding how you wouldn't see that this is wrong. It's like signing a lease for your apartment for the next year, and still looking to buy a condo, figuring that you can just drop the apartment when it's convenient for you -- forgetting that there are many other people involved. I'm currently working on the schedule for next year's residents -- if one of them comes to me in 2 weeks and tells me that they've matched somewhere else, and all the work I've done building the schedule is wasted, I'll be quite upset. Note that one resident has been honest with me and might not be here next year -- I'm building the schedule without her, but happy to add her back in later -- adding someone is a piece of cake compared with filling a bunch of holes.

Just checked my contract, it seems to me that the program's policy regarding residents leaving for the reason of switching specialties is not too punitive, on the contract:

"8. RESIDENT DESIRING TO LEAVE BEFORE CONTRACT END DATE:

Residents may terminate this Agreement with a 90 day written notice to the Program Director and the Designated Institutional Official in situations in which:
(i) the Resident decides to change specialties;
(ii) the Resident decides to no longer practice medicine or
(iii) other reasons mutually agreed upon by both parties (e.g. extended medical leave exceeding the 12 weeks allowable under the Family Medical Leave Act and where there is no reasonable chance of the resident resuming their duties).

In the interests of professionalism and educational progression, the GME Office and its respective programs strongly encourage Residents to complete the academic year they are in prior to changing specialties."

Especially if I finish my PGY-2 year and give them enough time to look for a replacement resident, they might be more understanding on my situation.

Our program just hired an incoming PGY-2 resident, who has finished his PGY-2 at another program. I'm not sure why would they hire someone who has only 2 years of CME funding left out of his 3 years of residency. Does it mean that our program does not only use the CME funding but also additional funding from rotating hospitals to fund their residents? Will this mean anything if I transfer to another specialty, that a part of my education there will be paid for?
 
Just checked my contract, it seems to me that the program's policy regarding residents leaving for the reason of switching specialties is not too punitive, on the contract:

"8. RESIDENT DESIRING TO LEAVE BEFORE CONTRACT END DATE:

Residents may terminate this Agreement with a 90 day written notice to the Program Director and the Designated Institutional Official in situations in which:
(i) the Resident decides to change specialties;
(ii) the Resident decides to no longer practice medicine or
(iii) other reasons mutually agreed upon by both parties (e.g. extended medical leave exceeding the 12 weeks allowable under the Family Medical Leave Act and where there is no reasonable chance of the resident resuming their duties).

In the interests of professionalism and educational progression, the GME Office and its respective programs strongly encourage Residents to complete the academic year they are in prior to changing specialties."

Especially if I finish my PGY-2 year and give them enough time to look for a replacement resident, they might be more understanding on my situation.

Our program just hired an incoming PGY-2 resident, who has finished his PGY-2 at another program. I'm not sure why would they hire someone who has only 2 years of CME funding left out of his 3 years of residency. Does it mean that our program does not only use the CME funding but also additional funding from rotating hospitals to fund their residents? Will this mean anything if I transfer to another specialty, that a part of my education there will be paid for?


What specialty did the PGY-2 transfer from? Usually funding is not a big issue at major medical centers. If the program wants you, they will fund you even if you don't have complete funding, ie-you have less than 3 years for anesthesia for example. Also programs who may have a funding problem are usually smaller programs, or programs that are not profitable, etc. I know a number of people for example who started in IM, did 2 years, and then transferred to rads which clearly would be 3 extra funding years and there was no issue. So if a program is interviewing you, they know hat you don't have enough funding left yet they still think you are a decent candidate and they will find the funding for the position.
 
Left of center question; does this IRP apply to Canadian programs?
ie can a Canadian FM resident just finishing their training apply to anesthesiology in the US w/o having the GME funding restricted?
 
Left of center question; does this IRP apply to Canadian programs?
ie can a Canadian FM resident just finishing their training apply to anesthesiology in the US w/o having the GME funding restricted?
Unless you have previous US training paid for by CMS, there will be no restriction on your funding.
 
Most hospital contracts grant both parties 90 days as the length of time to give notice that the contract will be unilaterally broken.
The only issue her I would caution you about is that the PD has the power to really hurt your portfolio, not support your application and you would be placed under scrutiny once you initiate this process. So you have to be absolutely sure and be willing to take a significant risk. This is especially the case given your thoughts about your PD.

In addition, you want to check and make sure you are not going into a match violation if you already signed your PGY3 contract. You can call ACGME and ask anonymously, but I have noticed how PGY 1 -> 2 prelim surgery residents are threatened with match violations if they found a categorical position and wanted to leave regardless of 3 months notice if they had already signed the contract.
 
In addition, you want to check and make sure you are not going into a match violation if you already signed your PGY3 contract. You can call ACGME and ask anonymously, but I have noticed how PGY 1 -> 2 prelim surgery residents are threatened with match violations if they found a categorical position and wanted to leave regardless of 3 months notice if they had already signed the contract.
This may be a contract violation (which no program will bother to pursue except in extraordinary circumstances), but it is not in any way a Match violation. Once you get past the 45 day mark (I think that's the NRMP contract requirement but I'm too lazy to look it up right now), your Match commitment has been honored (to the letter, if not the spirit of the contract).

Programs can certainly threaten you but they are:
A) Wrong about this
B) Being vindictive a**holes
 
This may be a contract violation (which no program will bother to pursue except in extraordinary circumstances), but it is not in any way a Match violation. Once you get past the 45 day mark (I think that's the NRMP contract requirement but I'm too lazy to look it up right now), your Match commitment has been honored (to the letter, if not the spirit of the contract).

Programs can certainly threaten you but they are:
A) Wrong about this
B) Being vindictive a**holes

However, OP has not passed the 45 day mark. If he is already signed onto a PGY3 contract and SOAPs any position he would be violating match.

Doesnt stop them from being the above 🙁
We can only hope that OP's PD is kind.
 
However, OP has not passed the 45 day mark. If he is already signed onto a PGY3 contract and SOAPs any position he would be violating match.

Doesnt stop them from being the above 🙁
We can only hope that OP's PD is kind.
Nope. 45 day mark is for the initial match. Also, the "OP" is 2 years old so I suspect that this is no longer an issue.

And if you match Prelim/Advanced and switch into a different advanced specialty or stay with your prelim specialty, there's no Match violation involved, even without the 45 day issue.
 
It is...especially before you go spreading misinformation.

Nope. If OP is signed onto a PGY3 contract and SOAPs any position he would be violating match. He would therefore in the match despite having already signed a contract.
However, the circumstance you are alluding to is different to what the OP has described. Your statement could be true, but is not applicable to OP.
See #2 and #3 as already previously discussed by a program director.
 
I am afraid I may have been incorrect. I just read through the match agreement. It only states that you can't have a match commitment for the concurrent year -- there is nothing about just signing another contract. So I believe WS is correct, it is not a match violation. I'll edit my post above.
 
I am afraid I may have been incorrect. I just read through the match agreement. It only states that you can't have a match commitment for the concurrent year -- there is nothing about just signing another contract. So I believe WS is correct, it is not a match violation. I'll edit my post above.
I assume that by WS, you mean gutonc.

Either way....
 
Nope. If OP is signed onto a PGY3 contract and SOAPs any position he would be violating match. He would therefore in the match despite having already signed a contract.
However, the circumstance you are alluding to is different to what the OP has described. Your statement could be true, but is not applicable to OP.
See #2 and #3 as already previously discussed by a program director.
Nope...you're wrong. Completely.

And I'm still trying to figure out what you're trying to gain from bumping this thread. The OP is long gone. There was a semi-legit necrobump that asked a related and at least marginally relevant question. But you're just here dropping crazy-talk. Just stop already.
 
Top