Future Employment Opportunities...

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@JackShephard

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Can someone comment on the employment opportunities of a PMR doc? How is the job market today? Are there lots of opportunities or do you have to start your own practice? I don't care about income very much, but is the mean around 200k?

Are there tons of PMR docs or are there not enough?

I'm very interested in sports medicine and also things like traumatic brain injury rehab. I just don't hear too much about the politics and atmosphere of PMR.

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The average starting salary for general PM&R outpatient is below $200K. Doing a pain fellowship will raise that but not by as much as you might think. The interventional pain salaries were already trending downwards pre-Obamacare. Doing a pain fellowship does, however, improve your employment prospects (if you don't want to do inpatient) as many groups need some help with procedures. The listings for PM&R outpatient jobs tends to reflect this.

The large and medium sized metropolitan areas are all very saturated with various types of pain and MSK providers, which include PM&R, Anesthesia Pain, Neurology, Sports Medicine, Orthopedic Surgeons, Rheumatologists, etc. There are even many PCP's that retain most of the patients (and with that the MSK/pain management work such as office visits, basic injections, etc.) themselves and might only refer out rarely for a specific procedure (which would go to some old, more established local doctor that they've known for ages).

The places that seem to have the most jobs are university medical centers, for inpatient positions.
 
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Do you guys feel like there will be unemployed PMR docs in the future or are there plenty opportunities to go around?

What's the lowest the mean salary could go?

I know these are impossible to predict, but using your experience and knowledge, what's your best prediction?
 
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Im pretty sure there are unemployed PMR docs today... just like in any other field.
Salary goes as low as you are willing to take. My guess is <100k
 
No one is unemployed by choice in PM&R unless they are extremely picky... It's not as great as in years past, but the sky isn't falling either.

Someone much wiser than me on this forum put it this way:

For your first job:

a)Ideal salary
b)Ideal location
c)Ideal practice/patient population

Pick 2....
 
If you're an average resident, with average work ethic, and even below average networking skills, you should get at least informally a few job offers from local doctors your residency has contact with (or are rotation sites) or from your own program (which always seem to have high turnover due to low salaries for the low ranking professors) sometime during your fourth year.

If you want to go elsewhere, that's where it becomes more difficult. It'll help your cause to get a license or two for states that you are looking at. The 3 big sunbelt states of FL, TX, and CA have especially slow licensing. Otherwise, why should they waste $1000 flying you out and putting you up in a hotel to interview you when they've got willing and licensed local candidates? The AAPM&R job board is a good resource for listings and Linda Farr is the most helpful of the recruiters, IMO.

If you want to do TBI or SCI, I'd enjoy residency, try to get a paper or two done, and wouldn't even worry too much. No offense to anybody doing that, but fellowships aren't very competitive and there's plenty of unfilled jobs for those sub-specialists.
 
No one is unemployed by choice in PM&R unless they are extremely picky... It's not as great as in years past, but the sky isn't falling either.

Someone much wiser than me on this forum put it this way:

For your first job:

a)Ideal salary
b)Ideal location
c)Ideal practice/patient population

Pick 2....

Would it be unreasonable to expect to earn around 200k/yr for at least 5 years out of residency? While I'm not greedy, I also have loans to pay.

Would needing a 200k/yr salary preclude one from doing PMR?
 
In residency/fellowship, they don't teach you how to create quality work opportunities for yourself.

For example, pre-EMG cuts, you could simply sign up with a 3rd party EMG vendor, rent a small 1 room office and go to town. Start doing IMEs, etc. Even SNF consult service independent contractor positions can be financially attractive.

If you go looking for a typical employed inpatient rehab position in a saturated area then yes, starting salary will probably be less than $200k and maybe creep above it slowly after a few years.
 
Not to prolong the conversation, but I feel like I've heard conflicting opinions now. Do we think that willingness to do inpatient work/call will dramatically help earning potential and job search competitiveness?
 
@ Tromner.. As long as we live in a volume based reimbursement system (Do more get more) then your willingness to do call, cover other docs etc will increase your likelihood of being noticed by other doctors in the area. It will also *significantly* increase your earnings potential.

I laugh when I see people (mostly probably younger residents or med students) who hold on to avg salary numbers by specialty like a bible.. Those are a rough generalizations.
In any specialty (again in the system we have now), if you are willing to grind you will get more. I know internists who make loads of money and I mean loads of money.. why? Because they are willing to work hard, and often round more weekends than not. Yet if you follow average salary stuff people think a lot of general internists don't make that much money.

@jackshepard.. 200K + 5 years out from residency is very reasonable.

@ Paddington, you mentioned a certain recruiter by name. I respectfully disagree with your opinion of this recruiter. There are others out there who can get the job done. It is perfectly acceptable to work with multiple recruiters since they tend to have different jobs.

@ Taus, I agree with you .. I'd never pick the first job based on salary alone. There's often a huge catch, and sometimes the shadiest jobs i.e. those asking you to do questionable practices will pay new grads a lot because they want to sucker someone in... the wiser vets can sniff a rat a mile away. Location is somewhat overrated now; we live in an era where doctors rarely set up shop in one city and never move again.

My personal thoughts on PM&R and salaries etc:

1. Post-Obamacare there will likely be eventual large shifts in how we get paid. I believe the trend will be to get away from being driven by volume. Nobody knows when this is coming but many healthcare experts expect it to happen at some point. This will include things like Bundled payments as well as pay for performance.

2. "Are there enough PMR doc or not enough?" Both. It totally depends on where you live. Go to a big metropolitan area with a few residency programs especially in a popular city to live in, then you can expect to have relatively lower earnings potential.
Go to a smaller town or less saturated area and you will have plenty of business.

3. You can earn a great living doing anything in PMR, whether its pain, EMG, inpt, SNF etc. You can also earn very little, e.g. starting lowest end salary of a VA PMR is listed at 98K. Long term income is dependent on your ability to adapt to changes in healthcare, your marketability/charisma, where you live, etc. Ultimately you will find that your income is dependent actually not as much on what you bring in, but on how well you manage your expenses. If you have lots of overhead, read: mouths to feed, expensive office space, poor book mgmt, expect to be crying poor for a very long time.

Of course the other option is going employed, but be careful who you are getting in bed with.

4. Earning more money does not lead to more happiness. IN fact it can often lead to more personal pressure and stress.

5. You will be significantly more savvy and better able to set up what you want in your ideal practice 5 years after you start.

6. In 5 years who knows what we will be doing.
 
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I disagree with much of this. As a PM&R grad with a pain fellowship, I could not believe the number of jobs out there. I stayed in my first job after fellowship for 1 year, and when I began looking for a new job, I was overwhelmed with the job market. In 6 weeks I went on 14 job interviews and had 12 job offers, most of which started at $200k or above.

And this was in the greater New York City area, with job offers in Manhattan, the outer boroughs, Long Island, north Jersey, etc (2 of the jobs were in the Philadelphia area, now that I think about it).

And I was somewhat selective with my job search- I feel like I could have gone on many more interviews. And this was in 6 weeks. In one of (if not the most) saturated and desirable metropolitan areas of the country. I am not saying that they were all great jobs, but most of them looked good, without any major red flags.

In my experience, the job market was amazing- way beyond what I imagined it would be.
 
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I disagree with much of this. As a PM&R grad with a pain fellowship, I could not believe the number of jobs out there. I stayed in my first job after fellowship for 1 year, and when I began looking for a new job, I was overwhelmed with the job market. In 6 weeks I went on 14 job interviews and had 12 job offers, most of which started at $200k or above.

And this was in the greater New York City area, with job offers in Manhattan, the outer boroughs, Long Island, north Jersey, etc (2 of the jobs were in the Philadelphia area, now that I think about it).

And I was somewhat selective with my job search- I feel like I could have gone on many more interviews. And this was in 6 weeks. In one of (if not the most) saturated and desirable metropolitan areas of the country. I am not saying that they were all great jobs, but most of them looked good, without any major red flags.

In my experience, the job market was amazing- way beyond what I imagined it would be.

The pain fellowship certainly helps
 
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It definitely does. If you want to be paid well, you have to be able to bring in good money to anyone who is going to hire you.

No one is gonna pay you well for doing H&Ps or writing physical therapy prescriptions.
 
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It definitely does. If you want to be paid well, you have to be able to bring in good money to anyone who is going to hire you.
No one is gonna pay you well for doing H&Ps or writing physical therapy prescriptions.

Depends on how you're productivity is measured, RVU vs collections. RVU's are higher for office visits than procedures now. Reimbursement is trending that direction as well. Insurances are hacking away our reimbursements and stopping coverage for many procedures.
fee for service is dead, we're all waiting for the funeral
 
Depends on how you're productivity is measured, RVU vs collections. RVU's are higher for office visits than procedures now. Reimbursement is trending that direction as well. Insurances are hacking away our reimbursements and stopping coverage for many procedures.
fee for service is dead, we're all waiting for the funeral

Wow, RVUs are really higher for office visits?

Then what's the game plan for the post fee-for-service world?

More patients with 10-15 min appointments? More medical legal?
 
@ Tromner.. As long as we live in a volume based reimbursement system (Do more get more) then your willingness to do call, cover other docs etc will increase your likelihood of being noticed by other doctors in the area. It will also *significantly* increase your earnings potential.

I laugh when I see people (mostly probably younger residents or med students) who hold on to avg salary numbers by specialty like a bible.. Those are a rough generalizations.
In any specialty (again in the system we have now), if you are willing to grind you will get more. I know internists who make loads of money and I mean loads of money.. why? Because they are willing to work hard, and often round more weekends than not. Yet if you follow average salary stuff people think a lot of general internists don't make that much money.

@jackshepard.. 200K + 5 years out from residency is very reasonable.

@ Paddington, you mentioned a certain recruiter by name. I respectfully disagree with your opinion of this recruiter. There are others out there who can get the job done. It is perfectly acceptable to work with multiple recruiters since they tend to have different jobs.

@ Taus, I agree with you .. I'd never pick the first job based on salary alone. There's often a huge catch, and sometimes the shadiest jobs i.e. those asking you to do questionable practices will pay new grads a lot because they want to sucker someone in... the wiser vets can sniff a rat a mile away. Location is somewhat overrated now; we live in an era where doctors rarely set up shop in one city and never move again.

My personal thoughts on PM&R and salaries etc:

1. Post-Obamacare there will likely be eventual large shifts in how we get paid. I believe the trend will be to get away from being driven by volume. Nobody knows when this is coming but many healthcare experts expect it to happen at some point. This will include things like Bundled payments as well as pay for performance.

2. "Are there enough PMR doc or not enough?" Both. It totally depends on where you live. Go to a big metropolitan area with a few residency programs especially in a popular city to live in, then you can expect to have relatively lower earnings potential.
Go to a smaller town or less saturated area and you will have plenty of business.

3. You can earn a great living doing anything in PMR, whether its pain, EMG, inpt, SNF etc. You can also earn very little, e.g. starting lowest end salary of a VA PMR is listed at 98K. Long term income is dependent on your ability to adapt to changes in healthcare, your marketability/charisma, where you live, etc. Ultimately you will find that your income is dependent actually not as much on what you bring in, but on how well you manage your expenses. If you have lots of overhead, read: mouths to feed, expensive office space, poor book mgmt, expect to be crying poor for a very long time.

Of course the other option is going employed, but be careful who you are getting in bed with.

4. Earning more money does not lead to more happiness. IN fact it can often lead to more personal pressure and stress.

5. You will be significantly more savvy and better able to set up what you want in your ideal practice 5 years after you start.

6. In 5 years who knows what we will be doing.

Great post.
 
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