PsychMode said:
PublicHealth, I reread what I wrote and I have to clarify. When I said "traditional psychologist," I actually meant traditional in any subfield. Like, for example, a traditional clinical psychologist having to compete with master's degree practitioners and having to look for jobs in industry or research that doesn't involve abnormal psychology/psychopathology (or what is traditionally meant by clinical psychology). Or a traditional academic/experimental psychologist going into industry instead of academia. Regardless, you make a good point. But my concern is about the number of those jobs like the one in the ad you used as an example. I guess, either way, a clinical PhD has always been the most versatile of the psych PhD degrees, so I'm not disagreeing with you. After all, there has to be a reason why it is statistically harder to get into a clinical PhD program than it is to get into med school (even if MDs make more money 😉 )
You also mentioned neuro and forensic in your later post, and most likely I will pursue health/neuro, and perhaps forensic as well. I've even thought about a JD/PhD, but I already discussed that in another thread and I can go on and on about it.
Kushkeeee, that was good reframing, about the MSW being more practical in terms of taking less time and requiring less loans. About going into a PhD for money, I don't feel like that's all it is for me. I know the prospects and I still want to do it. I have to go for it. Honestly, medical school does not appeal to me, but it appeals to me more than an MSW program for some reason. And with my undergrad gpa I'm not even sure that I can get into a med school or a clinical phd program (my grad gpa is good though)! But I do have to say that in the past, a clinical PhD offered, through private practice or other clinical/mental health work, a commensurate financial reward for all of the hard work. Not anymore, but I am still interested in clinical PhD, I'm still interested in helping people, and I'm still interested in challenging myself. The MSW option is a good option, but my goal is to be a psychologist. I don't want to be limited (e.g., from pursuing neuro, clincal forensic, etc). It surprises me that, considering the data managed care bases their policies and attitudes toward PhD clinicians on, that they don't go ahead and advocate for and hire therapists right out of undergrad! Even if they did, I think I would still pursue a PhD. If the PhD doesn't happen, then I'll look into other options.
The key to surviving in today's psychology job market is to be versatile. It is highly unlikely to have social workers conducting psychological assessments and testifying in court in specialized settings (e.g., neuropsychology, forensics) . Have you read the articles on forensic neuropsychology in recent issues of
Archives of Clinical Neuropsychology? Hourly rates of neuropsychologists providing forensic services parallel those of neurologists and psychiatrists, and according to a recent study (Essig et al., 2001), attorneys MORE OFTEN employ neuropsychologists to evaluate personal injury cases than any other specialists, including physicians.
Check out the following:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14590178
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14609579
Your point about "traditional clinical psychologists" is well taken. Specialization is increasingly becoming requisite for survival. This is true in psychology as well as in medicine. Just look at how many graduating medical students are avoiding primary care in favor of specialized fields. Even osteopathic physicians, who pride themselves on having a "primary care orientation" are increasingly pursuing entrance into specialized fields (I'm sure their being strapped with $200K in debt and declining salaries for primary care doctors has something to do with it)
Healthcare in general is undergoing a period of transition. There is tension in virtually every area of healthcare: optometry and ophthalmology, nurse anesthesia and anesthesiology, clinical psychology and psychiatry, physical therapy and chiropractic, and physician assistants/nurse practitioners and MDs/DOs. Sure, these professionals may exist harmoniously in most settings, but professionally, nonphysician providers tend to want more privileges, albeit in various degrees. Who knows what healthcare in this country will be like in ten, twenty, or fifty years.
Psychology as a profession has a lot to offer. Training in clinical psychology equips you with research, clinical, and teaching skills that easily trump those of any social worker. Moreover, postdoctoral training opportunities allow clinical psychologists to specialize in a range of applied areas (e.g., neuro, child, gero, health, forensic, sports, etc.). In my view, specialization (and prescription privileges?) is key to clinical psychology's survival. As we all know, the future of the field hinges tightly on a number of interprofessional, political, social, and economic factors. How these tensions will play out in the years to come is open to discussion.
As for availability of the jobs in applied settings, you'd be surprised. I actually contacted several of the people on that website about their career paths, and all of them mentioned that they were heavily recruited for their current positions. Most mentioned that they started out in traditional academic/clinical positions, established a name for themselves through their research and clinical work, and were then recruited for their current positions. I guess that when it all boils down, you have to be good at what you do, and be willing to accommodate your training in novel ways. Three of my friends trained in social psychology and are now doing usability testing for insurance companies! The jobs are out there (yes, even in applied settings), it's just that most psychologists tend to pursue the more traditional academic and clinical tracks out of fear that straying into the "path less taken" is tantamount to "professional suicide."
This a great discussion...let's keep it going.
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