Gap Year or Caribbean Medical School?

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mary3x

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I know several people who went to Ross and st George and despite being top of their class were unable to secure a U.S. Residency even after going through the match in uncompetitive fields like psych and FM. I'd strongly recommend against it since you could find yourself in a mountain of debt with effectively no way to pay it off.

Retake and apply both MD and DO. Both a U.S. Md or do degree is more respected than a carribean one, and DO should be within reach given your current stats
 
Just as a helpful addition, do you know the equivalent of a 506 in the old MCAT scale? Is that something like a 27-28, or more like a 22-23?

I would strongly advise against going to a Carib school unless your tuition is being paid for. Considering the fact that if you go to a Carib school, you almost have to slash a number of specialties off the list of those you can even consider... the potential regret isn't worth it, in my opinion.

Retake the MCAT, and enjoy the extra year of life before walking into the pit of despair that is medicine :laugh:

I will also echo the advice that a well-regarded DO school is superior to a Caribbean school as far as most residencies go, and this will be even more relevant with the upcoming merger. I know for a fact that even very good Ophtho programs interview well-qualified DO applicants. But I can't promise that a Derm program would interview a DO... maybe a derm resident could chime in here.

EDIT: If this conversion is correct (and it seems to be reasonable), I would double down and say that going to a Carib school would be a bad decision. You have the potential to jump significantly on another testing. Even if you didn't, your current score puts you well within reach of some very good DO schools.
 
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mary3x said:
A carribean school would be nice cause I wouldn't have to waste time taking a gap year (plus the mcat) and instead can just start my medical career, but there are obvious issues like getting a residency.
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So you know the obvious issue of it being tougher to get a residency. Yet you say that you wouldn't have to waste your time and could just "start your career."

Here's a tip: Med school is not your career. Residency is the foundation of your career, something you absolutely must have in order to practice. Starting med school sooner is not starting your career, especially if you end up without a residency spot. Take the time on the front end to improve your application.
 
mary3x said:
Hi all,

I applied to medical school this cycle and at this point I've interviewed at only 1 school. I have a 3.85 GPA but my mcat of 506 really screwed me. I've also done research, presented posters at SfN, and have good ECs. I feel like the only thing holding me back from a US MD school is my low mcat. I am considering taking a gap year and retaking the mcat, but my uncle who is a doctor is encouraging me to just go to a carribean medical school like Ross University if I don't get in this cycle. A carribean school would be nice cause I wouldn't have to waste time taking a gap year (plus the mcat) and instead can just start my medical career, but there are obvious issues like getting a residency.

Anyone that's been in a similar situation have any advice on what to do?
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I applied to med school 3 times (combination of not knowing what I was doing and getting a bad MCAT score the first time).

I ended up retaking it and working hard to boost my app.

I'm now an MS3 at a top 20 school.
 
The majority of students who will matriculate into a Caribbean school this fall will never become physicians. Half will get kicked out before taking Step 1. Amongst those who take Step 1, there will be more kicked out before graduation. For those who make it to graduation a number wont find anywhere to match. Amongst those who find a "match", a number of those will be at dead end prelims which arent really matches and dont lead to becoming a physician. For those who match, by and large the majority will match at the bottom of the barrel caliber residency programs in undesirable locations in primary care.

Note this number is only going down every year more and more. This is a major major reason why at one time the Caribbean was a viable option for those interested in primary care who couldnt get into a US school(which is probably what your uncle is alluding to) but it is no longer a viable option at all.

Compare this to a US MD school where 95% of people who start medical school will graduate and match. At US DO schools it is 0ver 90%. The programs US students match into are on average much higher quality than the residency programs a Caribbean student does in far more areas.

Note a 506 is a 29 on the old scale. Historically more than half of 3.8/29 candidates who apply to MD schools get accepted somewhere. And those stats are competitive for any DO program. So you have options that arent the Caribbean route; it's simply a matter of will you realize you should pursue them.
 
redferrari said:
This shouldn't even be a question..

Gap year. It's one year vs. 40 years.
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It's easy to ask this question if you've fallen into the trap of thinking that getting into med school is the end point and ultimate goal. I see it all the time.
 
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22031 Alum said:
It's easy to ask this question if you've fallen into the trap of thinking that getting into med school is the end point and ultimate goal. I see it all the time.
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I don't see where you're coming from. Perhaps I've fallen into the trap of thinking that getting a good residency is a good thing...
 
The Knife & Gun Club said:
I know several people who went to Ross and st George and despite being top of their class were unable to secure a U.S. Residency even after going through the match in uncompetitive fields like psych and FM. I'd strongly recommend against it since you could find yourself in a mountain of debt with effectively no way to pay it off.

Retake and apply both MD and DO. Both a U.S. Md or do degree is more respected than a carribean one, and DO should be within reach given your current stats
Click to expand...
I definitely think gap year is the right answer but I find it hard to believe that students at the top of their class at SGU and Ross couldn't match into uncompetitive fields. If this is true there must be some major red flag(other than being IMG) or they applied very poorly. I know people from non big 4 Caribbean schools who matched psych with crap step 1 scores. Definitely wouldn't recommend it though.
 
So you're comfortable with the idea of being deeply in debt and not having a medical career?

Do some searching in these forums for why going to a Carib diploma mill is a bad idea. A need for instant gratification and failing to look before you leap makes you exactly the type mark these places prey upon. Program Directors are aware of these flaws and act accordingly on those Carib grads that somehow make it past Boards.

Cue Argus to come in sputtering "but, but...NRMP!!"

mary3x said:
Hi all,

I applied to medical school this cycle and at this point I've interviewed at only 1 school. I have a 3.85 GPA but my mcat of 506 really screwed me. I've also done research, presented posters at SfN, and have good ECs. I feel like the only thing holding me back from a US MD school is my low mcat. I am considering taking a gap year and retaking the mcat, but my uncle who is a doctor is encouraging me to just go to a carribean medical school like Ross University if I don't get in this cycle. A carribean school would be nice cause I wouldn't have to waste time taking a gap year (plus the mcat) and instead can just start my medical career, but there are obvious issues like getting a residency.

Anyone that's been in a similar situation have any advice on what to do?
Click to expand...
 
CleganeBowlis4Real said:
I definitely think gap year is the right answer but I find it hard to believe that students at the top of their class at SGU and Ross couldn't match into uncompetitive fields.
Click to expand...

You're right, those top students probably get to train somewhere. But most people who post here have goals beyond training in any specialty and at any place they can manage to get accepted to. It's also not a good idea for anybody to make decisions based on what might happen if they're at the top of their med school class.
 
With the current climate, your scores are decent. Retake the MCAT and apply again. You should have gotten DO schools this time around. Apply US MD and DO. I wasted several years and it is worth it in the end when you are able to get a residency. No question here what to do. Uncle does not know how the game has changed.
 
Optimus-Prime said:
The Caribbean is your last option, you are no where near it yet
Click to expand...

Flat out respectfully disagree.

DO offers grade replacement. You can literally go back and retake all of your pre-reqs if you bombed them. Last grade that you got counts. Technically, there won't even be a last option because you can retake all your classes, prove yourself on the MCAT, sprinkle in or strengthen your ECs by getting a DO lor and you SHOULD get into SOME DO program that awards reinvention and maturity.

Caribbean shouldn't even be a frickin' option at all.
 
This is not a troll post. I heard from a friend that SGU and Ross are somewhat decent options but the other schools should be avoided at all costs. If you are smart, maybe were not a good student/immature in undergrad, wouldn't this be a decent option for that kind of student.

I heard some horror stories about the other Caribbean schools......
 
QueenJames said:
Flat out respectfully disagree.

DO offers grade replacement. You can literally go back and retake all of your pre-reqs if you bombed them. Last grade that you got counts. Technically, there won't even be a last option because you can retake all your classes, prove yourself on the MCAT, sprinkle in or strengthen your ECs by getting a DO lor and you SHOULD get into SOME DO program that awards reinvention and maturity.

Caribbean shouldn't even be a frickin' option at all.
Click to expand...

MD>DO>Carib

I know people who have gone the Carib route and practice currently, its one hell of an uphill battle.
 
Officer Farva said:
This is not a troll post. I heard from a friend that SGU and Ross are somewhat decent options but the other schools should be avoided at all costs. If you are smart, maybe were not a good student/immature in undergrad, wouldn't this be a decent option for that kind of student.

I heard some horror stories about the other Caribbean schools......
Click to expand...

Carib meaning SGU or Ross of course
 
Optimus-Prime said:
MD>DO>Carib

I know people who have gone the Carib route and practice currently, its one hell of an uphill battle.
Click to expand...

Lol

It's more like MD > DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carib.

You can go Carib if all you want is FM, IM, or Psych... in a program that is not your choice in a location that is not your choice.. while trying to jump all the BS hurdles that the Carib offers and scoring super high on the STEP (which if you had done schooling here in the states, you would have a shot at super competitive specialties).

You are essentially working 10 times harder to get much less. Not saying that these fields are any "lesser" than any other specialty or "not competitive" or "not desirable", please don't get me wrong, but what if you loved some other residency or something during your rotations and you want to go into it but are unfortunately shut out because of being an IMG? Wouldn't wish that burden or displeasure on my worst enemy.
 
QueenJames said:
Lol

It's more like MD > DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carib.

You can go Carib if all you want is FM, IM, or Psych... in a program that is not your choice in a location that is not your choice.. while trying to jump all the BS hurdles that the Carib offers and scoring super high on the STEP (which if you had done schooling here in the states, you would have a shot at super competitive specialties).

You are essentially working 10 times harder to get much less. Not saying that these fields are any "lesser" than any other specialty or "not competitive" or "not desirable", please don't get me wrong, but what if you loved some other residency or something during your rotations and you want to go into it but are unfortunately shut out because of being an IMG? Wouldn't wish that burden or displeasure on my worst enemy.
Click to expand...

http://www.downstate.edu/orthopaedics/surgery/residents.html

class of 2016, 2019, 2020

There are other places as well. I am not advocating for OP to go, just looking at the facts. I lived in the Carribean while my dad went to SGU, I lived through the pains of his matching process. yes there are more hurdles, but I think you fail to realize that there are situations that force you to either go to the Carribean or give up up medicine.

I was also very close to going

Your number of ">" is apropriate
 
Optimus-Prime said:
http://www.downstate.edu/orthopaedics/surgery/residents.html

class of 2016, 2019, 2020

There are other places as well. I am not advocating for OP to go, just looking at the facts. I lived in the Carribean while my dad went to SGU, I lived through the pains of his matching process. yes there are more hurdles, but I think you fail to realize that there are situations that force you to either go to the Carribean or give up up medicine.

I was also very close to going

Your number of ">" is apropriate
Click to expand...
Hmm...interesting that the 3 guys who went to the Caribbean are all either from CA or went to undergrad in CA (from AZ).
 
First, whenever an uncle or someone of an older generation suggests Caribbean, they probably mean well. They just don't realize how much things have changed. When they were applying to med school, offshore was probably still a somewhat viable option. Also gasoline still cost a quarter a gallon, and telephones were all attached to the wall. Just smile, nod and walk away.

Second, you rarely "save a gap year" going offshore. Even if you survive the high attrition the first two years, there are internal hold-ups at many of these schools that can cost you a year or more. If you aren't scoring well enough on internal metrics you might be held back a year or not be allowed to sit for the steps on time. If you look at the total enrollment at some of these offshore schools, it's frequently more than 5 times the enrollment of their senior class, meaning there are a lot of people in the pipeline moving at slower than a 4 year pace. And because these places don't have built in internal rotations and contract for them externally, there can be scheduling glitches. I knew a guy who couldn't get a core rotation in the year when he needed it and ended up having to wait a year to finish third year. And then there are many people who don't match and end up spending a year or two doing research at a US school making contacts in order to try and get an inside track in a future match. And plenty who match/soap into dead end surgical prelims because that's all they can get and end up applying to match into a second intern year in a subsequent match. So basically while you won't have a gap year before med school, this path can potentially add a couple of years to the other end of your journey into residency. You'll rarely save time on this route. It's all negatives, no benefits unless it's just a last ditch Hail Mary attempt to be a doctor.
 
Optimus-Prime said:
http://www.downstate.edu/orthopaedics/surgery/residents.html

class of 2016, 2019, 2020

There are other places as well. I am not advocating for OP to go, just looking at the facts. I lived in the Carribean while my dad went to SGU, I lived through the pains of his matching process. yes there are more hurdles, but I think you fail to realize that there are situations that force you to either go to the Carribean or give up up medicine.

I was also very close to going

Your number of ">" is apropriate
Click to expand...

Those folks went atleast 4-5 years ago..... OP is asking if he should go now.. not knowing what the future holds 4-5 years from now.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Anecdotes are fun; the plural of anecdote is not data.

703 orthopedic surgery residency positions available last year in the match; 663 positions filled by US seniors. That's a pretty consistent number year to year, meaning 5% of available ortho positions go to independent applicants (Which includes not only IMGs but also DOs and FMGs).

You also have to ask yourself what those applicants did to obtain these positions. They likely not only had solid scores and grades, but also took extra time off for research (evidenced by charting outcomes in the match data - independent applicants to ortho who matched had an average of 16 pubs/abstracts compared to an average of 7 for USMD students), sometimes even unpaid research years.

In other words, the likelihood of going to a carib school and then matching to a competitive field like ortho is astronomically small.
Click to expand...

The chances are ****ing small for ortho, but what do you think the chances are for an IM spot at an NY hospital SGU pumped money into to for guaranteed spots?

My only point is you can make it out of the Carribean, by no means commonplace/easy but people do it and it is possible. You drop the standards of admission and the probability of an above average step 1, strong publication resume, and strong clerkship grades drop. For those that perform it is possible, unfortunately the return is drastically less than their DO and MD counterparts.
 
Optimus-Prime said:
The chances are ****ing small for ortho, but what do you think the chances are for an IM spot at an NY hospital SGU pumped money into to for guaranteed spots?
Click to expand...

Those programs that are filled with IMGs?? Nobody who knows better considers them good places to train. They don't fill with IMGs because the spots are guaranteed. They fill with IMGs because other applicants don't want to go there if they have any sort of choice. So like before, you're technically right in that some sort of spot may be found. But when we're giving advice, being technically right isn't the goal. The goal is to help somebody achieve their full potential, not just settle because "Hey, you can get a spot somewhere." That's why the anecdotes of random people who beat the odds aren't helpful, but caution -and yes, generalizations- are.
 
22031 Alum said:
Those programs that are filled with IMGs?? Nobody who knows better considers them good places to train. They don't fill with IMGs because the spots are guaranteed. They fill with IMGs because other applicants don't want to go there if they have any sort of choice. So like before, you're technically right in that some sort of spot may be found. But when we're giving advice, being technically right isn't the goal. The goal is to help somebody achieve their full potential, not just settle because "Hey, you can get a spot somewhere." That's why the anecdotes of random people who beat the odds aren't helpful, but caution -and yes, generalizations- are.
Click to expand...

Agree with everything you say, for OP Carribean isn't an option.
 
I've been wondering for a while, is Mexico a viable alternative to DO if the opportunity isn't there after X-cycles?
 
Thanks a lot for the feedback guys this was really helpful!
 
Wow that report is ****ing great. Can we get that put in one of the sticky threads?
 
I mean, on the other hand, Anjali Ramkissoon went Carribean and landed a Neurology residency in the U.S. 🙄
 
GrapesofRath said:
The majority of students who will matriculate into a Caribbean school this fall will never become physicians. Half will get kicked out before taking Step 1. Amongst those who take Step 1, there will be more kicked out before graduation. For those who make it to graduation a number wont find anywhere to match. Amongst those who find a "match", a number of those will be at dead end prelims which arent really matches and dont lead to becoming a physician. For those who match, by and large the majority will match at the bottom of the barrel caliber residency programs in undesirable locations in primary care.

Note this number is only going down every year more and more. This is a major major reason why at one time the Caribbean was a viable option for those interested in primary care who couldnt get into a US school(which is probably what your uncle is alluding to) but it is no longer a viable option at all.

Compare this to a US MD school where 95% of people who start medical school will graduate and match. At US DO schools it is 0ver 90%. The programs US students match into are on average much higher quality than the residency programs a Caribbean student does in far more areas.

Note a 506 is a 29 on the old scale. Historically more than half of 3.8/29 candidates who apply to MD schools get accepted somewhere. And those stats are competitive for any DO program. So you have options that arent the Caribbean route; it's simply a matter of will you realize you should pursue them.
Click to expand...

gonnif said:
here is one way to look at the difference of US schools and off shore.

In US schools over 50% of applicants do not get in. The 40%-45% who do get in virtually all graduate and go on to a residency slot
In off shore schools, about 50% who do get in, never earn a degree. About 40%-45% from the original starting class go on to some residency slot.

in the first instance for US schools, only costs in application and perhaps travel to interviews
in the second instance for off shore schools, serious tuition debt of hundreds of thousands of dollars can be at risk

It is that risk of less that half of the off shore starting class actually graduating and getting a slot is why I can not recommend any of the carib schools
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gonnif said:
All off-shore schools graduates suffer the same diminishing opportunities for residency slots in terms of chances of getting any slot and limiting pressures on what slots you may get. While all off-shore schools are not alike, some with better reputations and placements than others, it still requires a potential applicant to investigate. While the placement rate for residency is what schools usually promote, you should find out how many student who start, actually graduate and get a slot. For some carib schools nearly 50% of students drop out before earning a degree. So the 85%+ placement rate they promote for residency must be cut in half to see what actual chances are.

As for the Mexican schools, UAG has the advantage of being associated with a long time, legitimate university. But it has suffered the last decade or so on being slow in moving from fifth pathway to direct US clinical rotations. I would assume (note I said assume) they have overcome that and at least have stable rotations now established. I have no information on dropout rate and placement rate.

But as I advise all students, doing at least two full application cycles for both MD and DO, with a break in between for application repair and enhancement before even considering off shore schools. I find reapplicants with larger issues do not take a year or two between cycles to do this repair and enhancement. With DO this is especially important as grade replacement exists and can enhance many students chances. Redoing an MCAT, post-bacc, SMP, additional EC, volunteering, etc are all available to applicants to increase their chances and should be attempted where needed.

It also serves to bolster an applicant's work ethic if they eventually choose an off shore school where you will have to work so hard to be on top and get a decent residency. But the risk of not getting one, leaving you hundreds of thousand dollars in debt is why I truly hesitate to recommend this path to most applicants.
Click to expand...


Genuine question here. I see the statistic bolded above thrown around a lot, but I've never seen a source for it. Sources for the match rate of graduates are pretty easy to find, but on what basis is this "50% of Caribbean matriculants will not graduate" statistic founded upon?

I don't really have a pony in this race, regardless, but I'd like to be able to use and read that statistic believably in the future.
 
sovereign0 said:
Genuine question here. I see the statistic bolded above thrown around a lot, but I've never seen a source for it. Sources for the match rate of graduates are pretty easy to find, but on what basis is this "50% of Caribbean matriculants will not graduate" statistic founded upon?

I don't really have a pony in this race, regardless, but I'd like to be able to use and read that statistic believably in the future.
Click to expand...

Look at the entering class, and compare that number to the graduating class
 
sovereign0 said:
Genuine question here. I see the statistic bolded above thrown around a lot, but I've never seen a source for it. Sources for the match rate of graduates are pretty easy to find, but on what basis is this "50% of Caribbean matriculants will not graduate" statistic founded upon?

I don't really have a pony in this race, regardless, but I'd like to be able to use and read that statistic believably in the future.
Click to expand...
If you compare the 1st year matriculation data (of SGU for example) to the NRMP application numbers, you will see that half of them have disappeared. When half of the ones allowed to sit for step one do not match into a preferred specialty, you lose half of that half.
 
MatthewDamon said:
I mean, on the other hand, Anjali Ramkissoon went Carribean and landed a Neurology residency in the U.S. 🙄
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Which ended up with her entering residency at a location to drink the pain away....

Don't pull an Anjali Ramkissoon.
 
MatthewDamon said:
I mean, on the other hand, Anjali Ramkissoon went Carribean and landed a Neurology residency in the U.S. 🙄
Click to expand...

If you blindfold yourself and throw a thousand darts I'm sure you'll get a couple bulls-eyes.
 
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