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[AppleRind]

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Hi everyone,

I'm just curious as to what the MD/PhD life is like. I've always wanted to be a physician, more specifically an anesthesiologist, due to my interest in pain relief and the use of anesthetics and analgesics. However, I've always had a very strong interest in research as well. After having shadowed some anesthesiologists/surgeons, I definitely want to concurrently do research. In preparation for anesthesiology and research, I'm currently in a third year pharmacology undergraduate program.

In the past, I've found interest in neurology and immunology/microbiology. I'm kind of all over the place in terms of interests. Anyways, I'm still a few years away from applying to either MD or MD/PhD as I will be doing a co-op term (Work for 1 year), but this isn't a decision to be taken lightly. Any input would be amazing! Thanks in advance.

-AppleRind

 

[PfNO22]

Hi everyone,

I'm just curious as to what the MD/PhD life is like. I've always wanted to be a physician, more specifically an anesthesiologist, due to my interest in pain relief and the use of anesthetics and analgesics. However, I've always had a very strong interest in research as well. After having shadowed some anesthesiologists/surgeons, I definitely want to concurrently do research. In preparation for anesthesiology and research, I'm currently in a third year pharmacology undergraduate program.

In the past, I've found interest in neurology and immunology/microbiology. I'm kind of all over the place in terms of interests. Anyways, I'm still a few years away from applying to either MD or MD/PhD as I will be doing a co-op term (Work for 1 year), but this isn't a decision to be taken lightly. Any input would be amazing! Thanks in advance.

-AppleRind

If you ask some more specific questions, you will get some great answers here. You have experts from all (most) different stages of MD/PhD that can help, if you provide some more specific details about your inquiry. But do browse this forum! There are many posts that address different aspects of the MD/PhD lifestyle.

 

[AppleRind]

Hi,

Thanks for the input, haha, I have looked around a little bit, but I will definitely look a bit harder and ask more specific questions when I get a chance to really sit down and seriously think about my concerns.

I posted because I wanted to get a general feel for what life as an MD/PhD student is like. My major concern is that I'll be a "Student" until I'm 30. By "Student" I mean like school eats up all of my time and I have no time to further my personal life/interests. I read the thread about MD/PhD students having time for their personal hobbies, but I am more worried about the financial side. I don't want to have to live with my parents until I'm settled in my career. Any input would be great! Again, thanks PfNO22 for replying.

-AppleRind

 

[PfNO22]

I am more worried about the financial side. I don't want to have to live with my parents until I'm settled in my career.

Where the heck did you get that idea???

 

[Choculitis]

Where the heck did you get that idea???

Yeah, that's more likely for straight MD than for MD/PhD, haha

 

[URHere]

I posted because I wanted to get a general feel for what life as an MD/PhD student is like.

In my opinion, you should be less worried about what life as a student is like, and more worried about whether MD/PhD training is really the best route to the future you want. Student-status is short-term, and you can deal with even the worst situation if you have a reason to. So...do you have a reason to?

Yes, you enjoy research. But, do you want to run your own lab someday, or would you be content with working under another PI or taking on the occasional clinical research project? If it is the latter, the PhD might not be a sound time investment.

I'm not implying that this is the wrong path for you...I'm just saying that having an interest in research isn't always enough.

I read the thread about MD/PhD students having time for their personal hobbies, but I am more worried about the financial side. I don't want to have to live with my parents until I'm settled in my career. Any input would be great!

Most MD/PhD programs cover the cost of tuition/health insurance and provide a living stipend to students. This isn't a great deal of money (20-30k/year), but it is far better than living on loans. If you are interested in what specific programs pay/which programs only pay for certain years/etc, just ask...it is likely that someone here will know.

 

[Choculitis]

In my opinion, you should be less worried about what life as a student is like, and more worried about whether MD/PhD training is really the best route to the future you want. Student-status is short-term, and you can deal with even the worst situation if you have a reason to.

I wouldn't exactly consider 7-8 years to be short term. Especially with several more years of residency looming after it.

 

[URHere]

I wouldn't exactly consider 7-8 years to be short term. Especially with several more years of residency looming after it.

Sure, the entire program isn't "short term", but if you are someone who wants an MD but goes MD/PhD (or conversely, someone who wants a PhD but goes MD/PhD), your extraneous training is really only going to take 3-5 years (assuming the person who wants a 100% research career skips residency). I consider that short-term in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Choculitis]

Sure, the entire program isn't "short term", but if you are someone who wants an MD but goes MD/PhD (or conversely, someone who wants a PhD but goes MD/PhD), your extraneous training is really only going to take 3-5 years (assuming the person who wants a 100% research career skips residency). I consider that short-term in the grand scheme of things.

I dunno...I feel like the time for this training is so long that our sense of relative length gets a little skewed. You can do a lot in 3-5 years, so I would not want to waste it working really hard for something that I won't ever need. If you like research, then I guess it's not too big of a deal, but 3 years is a long time do do something that you don't like.

Regardless, for me at least, 4 years with a summer off is a lot more palatable than 8 years non-stop, especially with the possibility of extra course work during the first two years. So I think it's worth taking the time to be really sure that you NEED a PhD as well before embarking on it.

 

[URHere]

You can do a lot in 3-5 years, so I would not want to waste it working really hard for something that I won't ever need.

So I think it's worth taking the time to be really sure that you NEED a PhD as well before embarking on it.

You and I are arguing the same thing here. My point is that everyone will hate the MD/PhD lifestyle at some point. If you are sure that MD/PhD is something truly useful for you, you can deal with that frustration. If you aren't sure that the degree is right for you, it really won't be worth it (with respect to time or emotional turmoil).

 

[AppleRind]

First off, thank you everyone for all the helpful replies, below I have quoted some to which I will respond.

Where the heck did you get that idea???

I have not specifically asked this to anyone, so I figured this forum would be the best place to inquire. From the experiences I've had with grad students and profs, the general consensus I received is that getting any graduate degree and beyond greatly drains monetary funds. I'm in no way claiming that it is true, it is simply a concern.

In my opinion, you should be less worried about what life as a student is like, and more worried about whether MD/PhD training is really the best route to the future you want. Student-status is short-term, and you can deal with even the worst situation if you have a reason to. So...do you have a reason to?

Yes, you enjoy research. But, do you want to run your own lab someday, or would you be content with working under another PI or taking on the occasional clinical research project? If it is the latter, the PhD might not be a sound time investment.

This entire post was very insightful and it has given me much to consider. Especially the question that is in bold. Regarding thinking about my future, my personal life is part of my future and I think it is a valid factor to consider. I ask about the commitment required in MD/PhD because I always thought that it would require similar commitment throughout one's career (Although probably with more free time). I have always imagined that I would do research, but I've never really considered whether or not I want to have my own lab. Could you, or anyone, please give me a bit more information on what running a lab and concurrently being a practicing physician is like? This is really new ground for me and I'd like to know as much as possible. Thanks in advance.

I'm not implying that this is the wrong path for you...I'm just saying that having an interest in research isn't always enough.

Haha, don't worry, I know that no one here would intentionally try and discourage me from something just for the sake of it and if they do, well nuts to them.

Most MD/PhD programs cover the cost of tuition/health insurance and provide a living stipend to students. This isn't a great deal of money (20-30k/year), but it is far better than living on loans. If you are interested in what specific programs pay/which programs only pay for certain years/etc, just ask...it is likely that someone here will know.

I did not know this; does the school provide this for all their MD/PhD students or is it on a case-by-case basis? Is there an online database somewhere that gives the amount paid for each program?

Again, thank you to everyone who took the time to reply, your input has been very helpful. Thanks.

-AppleRind

 

[K31]

I did not know this; does the school provide this for all their MD/PhD students or is it on a case-by-case basis? Is there an online database somewhere that gives the amount paid for each program?

There are two types of MD/PhD programs that people talk about--MSTP (Medical Scientist Training Program) and non-MSTP. The MSTP programs are funded in part by an NIH grant (list of schools here); non-MSTP programs get all their funding from other sources (the medical school, private donors, etc.).

All students in MSTP programs are fully funded for the entire length of the program--full scholarship for both medical and graduate school, as well as a stipend of $20-30,000.

Virtually all non-MSTP MD/PhD programs provide some degree of support for their students. Everyone is funded during the PhD years (as is standard for any science PhD in the US) but the support during medical school varies--some pay nothing, some give you a full-tuition scholarship but you are on your own for living expenses, and some give you a full scholarship and stipend same as an MSTP.

 

[QofQuimica]

This entire post was very insightful and it has given me much to consider. Especially the question that is in bold. Regarding thinking about my future, my personal life is part of my future and I think it is a valid factor to consider. I ask about the commitment required in MD/PhD because I always thought that it would require similar commitment throughout one's career (Although probably with more free time). I have always imagined that I would do research, but I've never really considered whether or not I want to have my own lab. Could you, or anyone, please give me a bit more information on what running a lab and concurrently being a practicing physician is like? This is really new ground for me and I'd like to know as much as possible. Thanks in advance.

From personal experience, most of us cannot answer this question, since we're still trainees ourselves. Plus, there is not just one answer to this question, since there are many types of physician scientists, and multiple possible academic or industry career tracks.

It sounds like what you really need is some shadowing experience and a physician scientist mentor (whether MD or MD/PhD). I suggest that you spend some time with several different physicians and physician scientists. Talk to them about their work, and see what they do on a day-to-day basis. Once you figure out what you want to be when you grow up, what path you need to take to get there will become more apparent.

 

[AppleRind]

There are two types of MD/PhD programs that people talk about--MSTP (Medical Scientist Training Program) and non-MSTP. The MSTP programs are funded in part by an NIH grant (list of schools here); non-MSTP programs get all their funding from other sources (the medical school, private donors, etc.).

All students in MSTP programs are fully funded for the entire length of the program--full scholarship for both medical and graduate school, as well as a stipend of $20-30,000.

Virtually all non-MSTP MD/PhD programs provide some degree of support for their students. Everyone is funded during the PhD years (as is standard for any science PhD in the US) but the support during medical school varies--some pay nothing, some give you a full-tuition scholarship but you are on your own for living expenses, and some give you a full scholarship and stipend same as an MSTP.

Very thorough explanation, thank you! I forgot to mention this, but I am a Canadian citizen and may be attending a Canadian university. Does anyone know if and what the differences are? Thanks again for all the information.

It sounds like what you really need is some shadowing experience and a physician scientist mentor (whether MD or MD/PhD). I suggest that you spend some time with several different physicians and physician scientists. Talk to them about their work, and see what they do on a day-to-day basis. Once you figure out what you want to be when you grow up, what path you need to take to get there will become more apparent.

Thanks for the reply! I would actually love to have more shadowing experience and I've started trying to find some (Went to Asia to shadow this past July) and the life of purely an anesthesiologist seems like it would not be fully satisfying; I enjoy discovering new things and problem solving. I'm wondering how one would approach physician scientists. Is it often via e-mail or a phone call or knocking on their door? I know its not a very good question, but I don't want to offend/inconvenience the people with whom I will be speaking. Also, regarding shadowing, is it a common practice that any physician or physician/scientist undertakes? Does it require paperwork/clearance? Again, I know these are very elementary questions but I do prefer answers to these questions from people who are speaking with me directly. Thanks again for all the help.

By the way, QofQuimica, your posts in the MCAT forums were very helpful, thank you.

-AppleRind

 

[Choculitis]

You and I are arguing the same thing here. My point is that everyone will hate the MD/PhD lifestyle at some point. If you are sure that MD/PhD is something truly useful for you, you can deal with that frustration. If you aren't sure that the degree is right for you, it really won't be worth it (with respect to time or emotional turmoil).

👍

 

[Silverfalcon]

I'm just saying that having an interest in research isn't always enough.

This is probably one of the best things I've read in this forum. 100% accurate.

@OP: If your other worries supersede passion for research, then I would not go on MD/PhD. If you feel that you "like" research, then just go to medical school and do lab projects when you get a chance. Unless you can't live without doing research, you shouldn't go onto MD/PhD. I think that's true for anyone who wants to get "PhD" though (you have to be a bit crazy about certain area, not just interested).

 

[K31]

Very thorough explanation, thank you! I forgot to mention this, but I am a Canadian citizen and may be attending a Canadian university. Does anyone know if and what the differences are? Thanks again for all the information.

It is an issue because to be funded by an NIH training grant you must be a US citizen or permanent resident. However, most MSTPs have funding in addition to the NIH grant and may be willing to accept non-Americans--there are definitely Canadians in US MD/PhD programs.

I'm wondering how one would approach physician scientists. Is it often via e-mail or a phone call or knocking on their door? I know its not a very good question, but I don't want to offend/inconvenience the people with whom I will be speaking.

Best bet if you have a medical school nearby would be to look at their website to identify physicians you might be interested in shadowing and send them an email.

Also, regarding shadowing, is it a common practice that any physician or physician/scientist undertakes?

Shadowing is a very common practice among people interested in medical school. Most physicians are open to people shadowin them but it varies; you are likely to have more luck with an academic physician (one who teached at a medical school) than one in private practice.

Does it require paperwork/clearance?

That depends on the physician and hospital. At the least you are likely to have to sign a confidentiality agreement and liability waiver.

 

[PfNO22]

Very thorough explanation, thank you! I forgot to mention this, but I am a Canadian citizen and may be attending a Canadian university. Does anyone know if and what the differences are? Thanks again for all the information.

This changes a lot with regards to the application process because almost all of the information in this forum is geared towards US MD/PhD admissions. Dunno about the lifestyle, but probably would be the same across the two countries.

However, I think there are very, VERY, few MD/PhD slots in Canada. For example, McGill has a program, but only 4 slots each year. Look around, info on this forum is for U.S. medical schools.

 

[Choculitis]

Very thorough explanation, thank you! I forgot to mention this, but I am a Canadian citizen and may be attending a Canadian university. Does anyone know if and what the differences are? Thanks again for all the information.

I only really looked at U of T's program, but I'm not impressed. They give a similar stipend as the US (30K), but you need to pay for the MD years out of that, which means that you're left with under 10 for those 4 years. They don't allow courses to count against both degrees, which means that you don't cut down the time to compared to getting them separately. And, given that the programs are so small, I doubt that they are as well organized in the States, especially regarding integrating the two degrees.

Basically, I think that you're much better off doing an MD/PhD in the US, if you can. That said, it's a little different for me because I have dual citizenship.

 

[AppleRind]

Wow, thanks for all the replies!

If your other worries supersede passion for research, then I would not go on MD/PhD. If you feel that you "like" research, then just go to medical school and do lab projects when you get a chance. Unless you can't live without doing research, you shouldn't go onto MD/PhD. I think that's true for anyone who wants to get "PhD" though (you have to be a bit crazy about certain area, not just interested).

Thanks for the information and I have heard a lot of people say that getting an MD and then doing some research on the side is a very common practice. Is doing this basically like being a physician scientist but without your own lab and maybe fewer research projects? I would like to think that I really do like research enough that it is something I would like to pursue. I don't think I can make a definitive answer to that question until I get some more experience shadowing physician scientists and spend some more time in the lab myself.

Dunno about the lifestyle, but probably would be the same across the two countries.

However, I think there are very, VERY, few MD/PhD slots in Canada. For example, McGill has a program, but only 4 slots each year. Look around, info on this forum is for U.S. medical schools.

I only really looked at U of T's program, but I'm not impressed. They give a similar stipend as the US (30K), but you need to pay for the MD years out of that, which means that you're left with under 10 for those 4 years. They don't allow courses to count against both degrees, which means that you don't cut down the time to compared to getting them separately. And, given that the programs are so small, I doubt that they are as well organized in the States, especially regarding integrating the two degrees.

Basically, I think that you're much better off doing an MD/PhD in the US, if you can. That said, it's a little different for me because I have dual citizenship.

Yea, I assumed that the lifestyle would be similar in all of North America, so I figured this forum would be the best place to ask around. I'm currently attending University of British Columbia and they offer an MD/PhD program. I'm going to an information session next week and I'm going to see what the program offers. I've thought about applying to US schools, but I wasn't aware that it required citizenship/permanent residence status detailed in K31's post.

Was there anything, upon entering an MD/PhD program, that you wish you knew before going into the program? Any advice that you would have given yourself, if you had the chance?

-AppleRind

 

[K31]

I've thought about applying to US schools, but I wasn't aware that it required citizenship/permanent residence status detailed in K31's post.

It's not required, but not being a citizen or permanent resident decreases the options schools have to fund you due to restrictions on federal funds. If you look around, there have been threads in the past discussing which MD/PhD programs will consider non-Americans.

 

[Silverfalcon]

Thanks for the information and I have heard a lot of people say that getting an MD and then doing some research on the side is a very common practice. Is doing this basically like being a physician scientist but without your own lab and maybe fewer research projects? I would like to think that I really do like research enough that it is something I would like to pursue. I don't think I can make a definitive answer to that question until I get some more experience shadowing physician scientists and spend some more time in the lab myself.

It's not really clear cut yes or no. You can still get involved in a lot of projects and have your own lab as MD. Running your own lab doesn't mean you have to be both MD and PhD - plenty of people run lab with just MD (and some do very well).

I would also say that MD/PhD are rather rare, and they are usually doing a lot of administrative stuffs besides patient treatments and running your own lab, so it doesn't make that much difference if you shadow someone who is MD and runs his own lab versus someone who is MD/PhD and runs his lab - latter would be just very difficult to catch.