Gauging your grasp of a language

[Seven of Nine]

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When a school (e.g. Arizona) asks you if you are fluent in a language, what is the general definition of "fluent"?

To me, fluent makes me think of native-level mastery.
Or do they mean a working grasp of the language?

I took a year off to focus on a language, and I feel I qualify as the latter. I feel like I should say yes to this, because I can run into a stranger, outside of an organized event in the community, have a random conversation for 2-3 hours, and only stumble once or twice. My app also strongly reflects my involvement in this community. Do I feel "fluent"? Not in relation to people's skills who primarily rely on this language. But I do feel like I have a strong command it.

I don't know how to answer this question, as I do not want to misrepresent myself to adcoms.

 

[loveoforganic]

I'd call you fluent.

 

[DaisyBuchanan]

I'm kind of the same way. I'm always cautious about putting "fluent in Spanish" on an application or resume, because that indicates that your interviewer could conduct your interview in Spanish and you should have no problem providing eloquent answers smoothly. I call my level "proficient in conversational Spanish" so they get the gist that I'm above intermediate level but not quite "fluent" fluent.

 

[mitl]

Grasp merely reflects you can get by with the bare-minimum knowledge

Fluency is the ability to convey fairly complex ideas and communicate effectively in another language

However on an application when someone asks if you are fluent in German it means will you be able to say take a semester of gen chen at Univ. Munich ?

In addition the are varying levels of fluency from what you describe you do belong to the fluent category

 

[Asyouwereatrio]

Fluent, IMO, would indicate a sufficient mastery of the language such that you could hold a typical conversation with at lesat 90% comprehension, if not more.

By typical, I mean "how was your day"--with details..."tell me about (something/someone) in your life",etc.

Not: "is your arm broken? can you feel this needle?" etc.

 

[Janieve]

I worked under a linguist, and she said 'fluency' is being able to instruct someone on how to tie their shoes.

Try it in your native language. It's tough!

 

[apumic]

I worked under a linguist, and she said 'fluency' is being able to instruct someone on how to tie their shoes.

Try it in your native language. It's tough!

haha... that's probably a decent test. really, teaching someone to do anything and learning to do something new in another language probably demonstrates a decent level of fluency.

As has been said, though, there are different levels of fluency and I've noticed that the more fluent I've become in Spanish the more I realize just how far I really am from near-native fluency. From a grammatical and comprehension perspective, many schools offer a language placement exam such as the Spanish one offered at http://webcape.byuhtrsc.org (your school would be listed if it had an account). That particular test goes through idiomatic phrases. It's not bad for up through intermediate-advanced speakers. But, honestly, it's not great beyond that level. (I can fool it into thinking I'm a native speaker and I'm nowhere near that.)

Honestly, though, I think the only way to know is to talk with someone who is a native speaker in a country where that is the primary language and ask them their opinion. (Native speakers in the US won't work. I've found that, at least for Spanish, the native typical Spanish speaker here tends to consider you "near-native" if your fluency is even moderate. It seems their standard for "native fluency" is often quite low; whereas people in-country tend to have much higher standards for "native" fluency.)

 

[SoFreakedOut]

Native speakers in the US won't work. I've found that, at least for Spanish, the native typical Spanish speaker here tends to consider you "near-native" if your fluency is even moderate. It seems their standard for "native fluency" is often quite low; whereas people in-country tend to have much higher standards for "native" fluency.

Wrong, at least as a generalization. Perhaps with some people you know but not as a rule. Maybe some are impressed and praise others for moderate skills but that doesn't mean they think they're fluent or sound like a native. Your experience may also be with "native" speakers who have Spanish speaking families so you assume they speak at a native level--that's wrong. Some of those speakers do not speak at college level Spanish and often can't write or read Spanish at that level either. That's not the "native" you're looking for. If they can read, write, and speak completely comfortably at a college level in Spanish then they're fit to help evaluate you.

I've had an OPI (oral proficiency interview) before. I was getting certified as an interpreter and had to do it. Anyway, here's a pyramid that lists, in general, what they're looking for when evaluating you: http://wahs.8j.net/forlan/spanish/images/actflpyramid.jpg.

The interview is basically just a structured conversation. You don't really notice that it's structured but the interviewers are trained to do it. They ask you questions that require you to think and come up with well formulated concepts. It's not just, "do you know how to say X in Y language". If you make zero to very few errors, speak with advance and varied vocabulary, and can form complex arguments you'd likely get a superior/native rating.

Basically, if you can have your med school interview in Spanish without getting flustered or messing up then it's likely okay to select "fluent". If that's not the case then you can always write about your proficiency in the activities section or in the "is there something else" section.

 

[apumic]

Wrong, at least as a generalization. Perhaps with some people you know but not as a rule. Maybe some are impressed and praise others for moderate skills but that doesn't mean they think they're fluent or sound like a native. Your experience may also be with "native" speakers who have Spanish speaking families so you assume they speak at a native level--that's wrong. Some of those speakers do not speak at college level Spanish and often can't write or read Spanish at that level either. That's not the "native" you're looking for. If they can read, write, and speak completely comfortably at a college level in Spanish then they're fit to help evaluate you.

I've had an OPI (oral proficiency interview) before. I was getting certified as an interpreter and had to do it. Anyway, here's a pyramid that lists, in general, what they're looking for when evaluating you: http://wahs.8j.net/forlan/spanish/images/actflpyramid.jpg.

The interview is basically just a structured conversation. You don't really notice that it's structured but the interviewers are trained to do it. They ask you questions that require you to think and come up with well formulated concepts. It's not just, "do you know how to say X in Y language". If you make zero to very few errors, speak with advance and varied vocabulary, and can form complex arguments you'd likely get a superior/native rating.

Basically, if you can have your med school interview in Spanish without getting flustered or messing up then it's likely okay to select "fluent". If that's not the case then you can always write about your proficiency in the activities section or in the "is there something else" section.

Well, apparently we have different experiences. I don't assume anything when it comes to someone's fluency (i.e., I don't assume someone who grew up in a Spanish-speaking household is anywhere near native as they often hardly speak the language at all). I have friends both in the States and in several Latin American countries with whom I correspond regularly in Spanish (all of whom that I refer to here are native; those in the US are generally 1st gen immigrants who regularly return to their own country, attend Spanish-speaking church services, and are active in the local Latino community). The ones in the States are generally much more "gracious" or "generous" when it comes to rating my own fluency in the language. I wonder if this may be due to feeling they are "able" to do so as they are in-country and, therefore, more confident of their skills in the language (i.e., someone who has completed through a college degree in-country vs. someone who is native at a HS literacy level but completed their education in English and, therefore, is slightly less confident as to exactly what is correct despite knowing the language natively). Per your guide, I would rank somewhere in the "Advanced" range with some "Superior" attributes; however, the guide you gave is far too general to be of any real use in rating one's own level of skill in a language. Too much is left out and there are far too many scales of measurement one needs to consider when evaluating skill in a language.

 

[jvesco22]

Wrong, at least as a generalization. Perhaps with some people you know but not as a rule. Maybe some are impressed and praise others for moderate skills but that doesn't mean they think they're fluent or sound like a native. Your experience may also be with "native" speakers who have Spanish speaking families so you assume they speak at a native level--that's wrong. Some of those speakers do not speak at college level Spanish and often can't write or read Spanish at that level either. That's not the "native" you're looking for. If they can read, write, and speak completely comfortably at a college level in Spanish then they're fit to help evaluate you.

I've had an OPI (oral proficiency interview) before. I was getting certified as an interpreter and had to do it. Anyway, here's a pyramid that lists, in general, what they're looking for when evaluating you: http://wahs.8j.net/forlan/spanish/images/actflpyramid.jpg.

The interview is basically just a structured conversation. You don't really notice that it's structured but the interviewers are trained to do it. They ask you questions that require you to think and come up with well formulated concepts. It's not just, "do you know how to say X in Y language". If you make zero to very few errors, speak with advance and varied vocabulary, and can form complex arguments you'd likely get a superior/native rating.

Basically, if you can have your med school interview in Spanish without getting flustered or messing up then it's likely okay to select "fluent". If that's not the case then you can always write about your proficiency in the activities section or in the "is there something else" section.

sounds legit.

Well, apparently we have different experiences. I don't assume anything when it comes to someone's fluency (i.e., I don't assume someone who grew up in a Spanish-speaking household is anywhere near native as they often hardly speak the language at all). I have friends both in the States and in several Latin American countries with whom I correspond regularly in Spanish (all of whom that I refer to here are native; those in the US are generally 1st gen immigrants who regularly return to their own country, attend Spanish-speaking church services, and are active in the local Latino community). The ones in the States are generally much more "gracious" or "generous" when it comes to rating my own fluency in the language. I wonder if this may be due to feeling they are "able" to do so as they are in-country and, therefore, more confident of their skills in the language (i.e., someone who has completed through a college degree in-country vs. someone who is native at a HS literacy level but completed their education in English and, therefore, is slightly less confident as to exactly what is correct despite knowing the language natively). Per your guide, I would rank somewhere in the "Advanced" range with some "Superior" attributes; however, the guide you gave is far too general to be of any real use in rating one's own level of skill in a language. Too much is left out and there are far too many scales of measurement one needs to consider when evaluating skill in a language.

No one cares about you, personally, brah...you're trying too hard. The guy disagreed with your generalization, leave it at that...

 

[wanderer]

If you learn a language after the age of 15 or so, you will never achieve native fluency unless you are totally immersed in it, and even then it depends on other factors for it to happen.