General Rant Thread? General Rant Thread.

[Sanman]

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Well, not to get political, but Trump has historically done nothing for veterans or for mental health. True on VA versus non-VA.

Well, if he guts the VA system, a lot of folks with trauma treatment experience will be looking for private sector work.

 

[statsprof]

Well, if he guts the VA system, a lot of folks with trauma treatment experience will be looking for private sector work.

This is so true. I see more colleagues in all specialties supplmenting with telehealth services and making more money doing it.

 

[statsprof]

Severe cluster b characterological pathology. And I'm not being denigrative towards those folks. Often these patients do have legitimate trauma histories. Almost always. Let me be clear; dissociation is real. I've seen it happen in real time. But dissociating into "alters," well.... I've just never seen it. None of my colleagues have ever seen it. At least in the way it's laid out in Sybil, which then parlayed and proliferated into film. I've seen people CLAIM to be dissociating into alters. But they always recall what happens. The best example I can think of in real life of DID was the dude who claimed to have it who strangled all those women in the 1970s in California. He was a psych student and he played it perfectly. But it's really hard to keep that kind of thing up, and he was eventually found to be a fraud and using it as an attempt to get an NGRI.

While I agree on the element of recall which I have also seen, this paper is intriuging. It is lenghty so I am not necessarily expecting an in-depth discussion here:

Separating Fact from Fiction: An Empirical Examination of Six Myths About Dissociative Identity Disorder - PMC

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a complex, posttraumatic, developmental disorder for which we now, after four decades of research, have an authoritative research base, but a number of misconceptualizations and myths about the disorder ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just a share.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

While I agree on the element of recall which I have also seen, this paper is intriuging. It is lenghty so I am not necessarily expecting an in-depth discussion here:

Separating Fact from Fiction: An Empirical Examination of Six Myths About Dissociative Identity Disorder - PMC

Dissociative identity disorder (DID) is a complex, posttraumatic, developmental disorder for which we now, after four decades of research, have an authoritative research base, but a number of misconceptualizations and myths about the disorder ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just a share.

APA PsycNet

Myth: Traumatic Memories Are Often Repressed and Later Recovered

The Return of the Repressed: The Persistent and Problematic Claims of Long-Forgotten Trauma - PMC

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/acp.4005?af=R

APA PsycNet

City Research Online - The Neuroscience of Dissociative Amnesia and Repressed Memory: Premature Conclusions and Unanswered Questions

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1745691621990628

 

[statsprof]

APA PsycNet

Myth: Traumatic Memories Are Often Repressed and Later Recovered

The Return of the Repressed: The Persistent and Problematic Claims of Long-Forgotten Trauma - PMC

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/acp.4005?af=R

APA PsycNet

City Research Online - The Neuroscience of Dissociative Amnesia and Repressed Memory: Premature Conclusions and Unanswered Questions

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1745691621990628

Note for brevity first: Using New Approaches in Neurobiology to Rethink Stress-Induced Amnesia - PMC

How traumatic memories hide in the brain, and how to retrieve them

In a new study with mice, Northwestern Medicine scientists have discovered for the first time the mechanism by which state-dependent learning renders traumatic memories consciously inaccessible.

news.northwestern.edu

Yes, there is a clinging of some Neo-Psychoanalysts even if not so aligned with Freud. However, there are well designed studies of the unconscious and robust evidence memories can be repressed. I ma not sure how researchwers can justify that no repressed memories exist.

Thanks for sharing the link too which I did read with supporting material.

I agree 100% that many claims to repressed memories surfacing are false memories and even worse dishonest claims at times, but if we look at how the brain works and how memory is stored coupled with the clinical findings

I realize over the past 10-15 years there have been many studies published claiming diassociated repressed memories do not exist but I have read most of the seminal papers and the major current ones along with a few books. I have seen repressed memories in action as well as those who hve false memories. Inability to retrieve memory is a real thing absent gross neurological damage, or any CNS assaults.

Of course false biographical memories are relatively common and it is rather easy to implant false memories:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09658211.2020.1870699

We do have an issue here that is not easily remedied. The way clinical practice operates even when informed by outside research (Experimental, quasi experimental, observational, etc) whether in Clinical Psychology or Psychiatry is often significanlty removed from how a lab PI or epidemiologist study operates in collection and interpretation of data.

What makes it more convoluted is the psychologist or other mental health professional looking to help the patient/client has different goals and aims than a forensic psychologist/psychiatrist fulfilling some legal definition of analysis. Even if the memory is there, is accurate, and is not actually repressed as claimed in thereapeutic relationship that 'belief' is treated as salient and in some sense 'real.'

That being said, fight or flight can be so intense that it in the best interest of the individual to forget a traumatic experience even if it is manifest in other ways.

The Biology of Forgetting – A Perspective - PMC

Pioneering research studies, beginning with those using Drosophila, have identified several molecular and cellular mechanisms for active forgetting. The currently known mechanisms for active forgetting include neurogenesis-based forgetting, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Perhaps, repressed memories are a recent sociological invention from the 1800's:

Repressed Memory | Harvard Magazine

Are some experiences so horrific that the human brain seals them away, only to recall them years later? The concept of “repressed...

www.harvardmagazine.com

Thate being said there is scientific evidence:

How Traumatic Memories Hide In The Brain, and How To Retrieve Them - News Center

Northwestern Medicine scientists have discovered for the first time the neurotransmitter pathways that allow stressful fear-related memories become consciously inaccessible.

news.feinberg.northwestern.edu

While I am not in one 'camp' per se, and I concur many 'repressed memories' are not the evidence from well designed, replicated research from esteemed colleagues exists and we must consider that much at least.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

That being said there is scientific evidence:

How Traumatic Memories Hide In The Brain, and How To Retrieve Them - News Center

Northwestern Medicine scientists have discovered for the first time the neurotransmitter pathways that allow stressful fear-related memories become consciously inaccessible.

news.feinberg.northwestern.edu

You want to conclude that arguably misinterpreted findings from mouse models overturn the now decades-long consensus from cognitive psychology that repressed memories don’t exist? Reading the original paper and not the sensationalist press release, it’s clear they found evidence that traumatic memories are—like other memories—often state-dependent, which provides evidence for using exposure elements for treatment optimization. There’s no evidence whatsoever here for any kind of repressed memory. In addition, there is good meta-analytic evidence to show that folks who report, or are diagnosed with, dissociative amnesia, do not show objective memory dysfunction (i.e., although they report feeling as if their episodic memories are dissociated, objective memory tests fail to detect any impairment). Some of the papers I’ve cited are to that end. There just isn’t anything here that I can see that challenges the conclusion that memory repression is a debunked concept.

 

[WisNeuro]

As someone who has studied and published on PTSD and its neurological underpinnings, I'm going to agree here on saying that this mouse model does not "prove" the existence of repressed memories, particularly as we're talking about them in trauma . Further, even if it did show compelling evidence, the number of animal models, even just within the trauma field, that do not replicate in humans, is legion. The evidence for presented in this thread thus far, is wholly underwhelming.

 

[statsprof]

You want to conclude that arguably misinterpreted findings from mouse models overturn the now decades-long consensus from cognitive psychology that repressed memories don’t exist?

It is improtant to note I shared links showing reseach skeptical of dissociation based repression too. There is, however, robust evidence for repression as well.

Frontiers | Recovered memories of trauma as a special (or not so special) form of involuntary autobiographical memories

Recovered memories of trauma are memories of traumatic events experienced generally during childhood, but of which the persons were unaware until they retrie...

www.frontiersin.org

Mouse models are extremely useful and they do translate to humans. Mouse models have helped develop new AD treatments etc. Of course we need human data and we do have that too. I have zero interest in a claimed consensus. The quality of the data, analysis and evidence is what matters. You have yet to submit anything dismissing repressed memories. I am also as I aforementioned not in one camp or the other-repression should not be dismissed either as not scientific or as 'debunked' or 'completely untrue.'

I am sure you are aware that what someone recalls, knows, believes, and therefore thinks about is extremely difficult to study in any of the branched of science or specifcally, cognitive psychology. Thus, stating the affirmative for one claim over the other is ad hoc and not in line with the methods we are supposed to be using. The fMRI scans of humans, the nerual signaling modeling, and observations of behavior, and narrating one's experiences is exceptionally complex to tie together in terms of memory that can be retrieved and there is no decades of evidence showing dissacociate repression does not occur.

Frontiers | Natural Memory Beyond the Storage Model: Repression, Trauma, and the Construction of a Personal Past

Naturally occurring memory processes show features which are difficult to investigate by conventional cognitive neuroscience paradigms. Distortions of memory...

www.frontiersin.org

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(20)30342-0?fbclid=IwAR1HbX1WEyUnSIcxFupMir0hPFHlcXDC5SCGfs8QuuRRWBwPKJK4TSBNpsM

Clinical Manifestations of Body Memories: The Impact of Past Bodily Experiences on Mental Health - PMC

Bodily experiences such as the feeling of touch, pain or inner signals of the body are deeply emotional and activate brain networks that mediate their perception and higher-order processing. While the ad hoc perception of bodily signals and their ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[statsprof]

As someone who has studied and published on PTSD and its neurological underpinnings, I'm going to agree here on saying that this mouse model does not "prove" the existence of repressed memories, particularly as we're talking about them in trauma . Further, even if it did show compelling evidence, the number of animal models, even just within the trauma field, that do not replicate in humans, is legion. The evidence for presented in this thread thus far, is wholly underwhelming.

Well, we have human models too as well as some compelling fMRI scans. I am sure there are a few of us who study trauma.

 

[R. Matey]

Well, we have human models too as well as some compelling fMRI scans.

Which are notoriously unable to be independently reproduced.

 

[statsprof]

Which are notoriously unable to be independently reproduced.

You are mistaken. They are difficult to replicate due to the complex nature/expense of the studies but they have been replicated.

Again, a significant % of repressed memories are later shiwn to be at the very least false, but it is difficut to ignore the weight of quality evidence for repressed memories. The complexity of memory research, and especially in trauma related research often precluds robust findings in a lab, but traumatic amnesia among others is very well documented and replicated in findings:

https://jimhopper.com/pdf/van_der_kolk_fisler1995.pdf

 

[R. Matey]

You are mistaken. They are difficult to replicate due to the complex nature/expense of the studies but they have been replicated.

Show me.

 

[statsprof]

Show me.

I already did. I am not going to link 100 references either.

 

[R. Matey]

I already did. I am not going to link 100 references either.

You just need to link two: the original and replication.

 

[statsprof]

You just need to link two: the original and replication.

did. read. I'll digress here.I have other things to do/publish. Point is you cannot just dismiss all repression claims scientifically and replication has occurred. Enough time ranting for me.

 

[R. Matey]

did. read. I'll digress here.I have other things to do/publish. Point is you cannot just dismiss all repression claims scientifically and replication has occurred. Enough time ranting for me.

I just figured it would be simpler for you to link since you claim familiarity with the literature. I'll look through your sources when I get the time.

 

[statsprof]

I just figured it would be simpler for you to link since you claim familiarity with the literature. I'll look through your sources when I get the time.

no worries-it's all there. Traumatic amnesia is one main point of replication.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

As someone who has studied and published on PTSD and its neurological underpinnings, I'm going to agree here on saying that this mouse model does not "prove" the existence of repressed memories, particularly as we're talking about them in trauma . Further, even if it did show compelling evidence, the number of animal models, even just within the trauma field, that do not replicate in humans, is legion. The evidence for presented in this thread thus far, is wholly underwhelming.

Yeah, methinks someone here is doing some apologia for a viewpoint that simply isn’t considered to be valid by the vast majority of scholars. Nothing linked here is any way demonstrable of the validity of any kind of dissociative amnesia or repressed memory.

 

[R. Matey]

Yeah, methinks someone here is doing some apologia for a viewpoint that simply isn’t considered to be valid by the vast majority of scholars. Nothing linked here is any way demonstrable of the validity of any kind of dissociative amnesia or repressed memory.

Repressed memory people showing up on this board seems like an semi-regular occurrence. Must be lunar 🤪

 

[WisNeuro]

You are mistaken. They are difficult to replicate due to the complex nature/expense of the studies but they have been replicated.

Again, a significant % of repressed memories are later shiwn to be at the very least false, but it is difficut to ignore the weight of quality evidence for repressed memories. The complexity of memory research, and especially in trauma related research often precluds robust findings in a lab, but traumatic amnesia among others is very well documented and replicated in findings:

https://jimhopper.com/pdf/van_der_kolk_fisler1995.pdf

This study does not show compelling evidence of repressed memories. At most it shows evidence of subjective vagueness in some memories, particularly those that happened during childhood, as this was the vast majority of the reported trauma.

 

[cara susanna]

WTH is up with the professional culture where you hate overhead lights?! It's just weird. And before you say it's a gender thing, it doesn't happen in other professions. My PCP doesn't have dimmed lights when I see her. My attorney doesn't hit the dimmer switch like Austin Power with her clients. It's unprofessional and creepy. This professional culture should change. There's a light switch on the wall. Use it.

Is this a thing outside the VA? I figured it was because of our fluorescent lighting.

At least you can be happy to know that I buck that trend. If I didn't have all of my lights on, I'd barely be able to see anything

 

[R. Matey]

I totally prefer dim lighting, but that was a thing long before I was a psychologist.

 

[statsprof]

Yeah, methinks someone here is doing some apologia for a viewpoint that simply isn’t considered to be valid by the vast majority of scholars. Nothing linked here is any way demonstrable of the validity of any kind of dissociative amnesia or repressed memory.

Me thinks you are rejecting evidence far too quickly. Repressed memories while rarer than believed does exist. I've seen it and enough research shows it exists. Your claim to number of scholars really is not salient. For one you are ignoring the number of clinical and research professionals who support the existence of repression. Second, you over value consensus building since different psychologists and neuroscientists take varying positions.

Rarer than thought does not equate to non existent.

 

[statsprof]

This study does not show compelling evidence of repressed memories. At most it shows evidence of subjective vagueness in some memories, particularly those that happened during childhood, as this was the vast majority of the reported trauma.

This is your subjective bias and nothing more. I fear for the ability here to understand research. More training is needed.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

Repressed memories while rarer than believed does exist. I've seen it and enough research shows it exists.

Yet none of what you’ve posted supports it. At best what you have posted demonstrates evidence for trauma memories often being state dependent (which is unsurprising and consistent with memory research and models of neuroscience), that we can contain recollections of past bodily states in memory (again, not controversial), or irrelevant quotes about ordinary forgetting (again, an understood and model-consistent process within memory science). Decades of research have shown convincingly that repressed memories are inconsistent with what we know about memory formation. It also shows that there are significant problems with building clinical impressions upon clinical observation outside of objective actuarial data. So, with all due respect, I side with the major thrust of the literature that is skeptical, especially sans any convincing evidence to the contrary (which certainly hasn’t been posted in this thread). And I’m not exactly unaware of the literature on cognitive neuroscience—I study the cognitive neuroscience of schizophrenia, so, while I have plenty to learn, I’m not ignorant of the basic arguments and seminal papers on the repressed memories debate.

 

[statsprof]

Yet none of what you’ve posted supports it. At best what you have posted demonstrates evidence for trauma memories often being state dependent (which is unsurprising and consistent with memory research and models of neuroscience). Decades of research have shown convincingly that repressed memories are inconsistent with what we know about memory formation. It also shows that there are significant problems with building clinical impressions in clinical observation outside of objective actuarial data. So, with all due respect, I side with the major thrust of the literature that is skeptical, especially sans any convincing evidence to the contrary (which certainly hasn’t been posted in this thread).

Memory formation is very complex and there are many controversies regarding how and when memories are amplified, experienced in the body, suppressed, or repressed.

You say this due to your own biases. The literature I provided does show compelling evidence and replication. If you choose to ignore it or not read it that is your choice. I am sure, respectfully, you are busy with your studies. Keep going, and perhaps you will get time with the literatute. Modern neuroccience, the cutting edge on memory is still very controversial and undecided at points. However, the memory wars are still present as evidenced by this thread. Many clinicians still treat repressed memories and they are not only Neo-Freudian etc.

I am well aware that repression is rarer than it used to be taught and I am well aware ofLotus among others but evn she does not deny repression can exist.

How memory can be manipulated, with Elizabeth Loftus, PhD

Elizabeth Loftus, PhD, is an expert on human memory and she discusses how our recollections of events and experiences may be subject to manipulation.

www.apa.org

Yet no consensus exists now in 2024. (You just refuse to read the research I linked in detail; not just the mice but the human subject research). Good luck.

 

[statsprof]

Disliking a post does not make it less true or salient.

Once again, false memories, implanted memories, malingering, and lying all do exist. I see the pendulum of the extreme here: Psychoanalysis reigned supreme, then it was behaviorism's transition-back in the day, psychologists were trained in both then that transformed. Cognitivism took over as the paradigm then we had excellent breakthorughs in CBT/DBT. The idea that repression is either rampant or does not exist at all are both extreme views not supported by replicated research., though some researchers have a specific intepretation and fall into a "camp."

Clinical psychologists in varying degree tend to trust their clinical practice more than peer-reviewed papers, though the astute clinicians try to sta up to date and apply some findings over time.

Research Psychologists still apply behaviorism while others apply psychobiology or biopsychology models which all work in varying degrees within proper contexts. Neuroscience, Neuropsychology and hormone research are very revealing as well. Yet lots of this research is not replicatable.

There is a replication crisis in general in psychology and related fields.

Part of what I do, my expertise/niche is assess research methods/study design, and look at repication issues. My other major trainng involves lab research and the interaction of hormones and the CNS. If you think repression is non-existent-that's not what data shows-albeit hard to collect, analyze, and present.

Memory repression: brain mechanisms underlying dissociative amnesia - PubMed

Dissociative amnesia usually follows a stressful event and cannot be attributable to explicit brain damage. It is thought to reflect a reversible deficit in memory retrieval probably due to memory repression. However, the neural mechanisms underlying this condition are not clear. We used fMRI to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[statsprof]

@EnPsychlopedia you lack research and debate maturity. We will stop here.

 

[WisNeuro]

This is your subjective bias and nothing more. I fear for the ability here to understand research. More training is needed.

Your fear is shared. But, when the data is not on your side, looks like you default to the ad hominems.

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

Your fear is shared. But, when the data is not on your side, looks like you default to the ad hominems.

Nah, they are totally mature and well-informed of the debate, even if their citations don't actually say what they claim! We are the biased ones here /s

 

[R. Matey]

Memory repression: brain mechanisms underlying dissociative amnesia - PubMed

Dissociative amnesia usually follows a stressful event and cannot be attributable to explicit brain damage. It is thought to reflect a reversible deficit in memory retrieval probably due to memory repression. However, the neural mechanisms underlying this condition are not clear. We used fMRI to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Two patients is not exactly a body of evidence.

 

[RxPsych]

Disliking a post does not make it less true or salient.

Once again, false memories, implanted memories, malingering, and lying all do exist. I see the pendulum of the extreme here: Psychoanalysis reigned supreme, then it was behaviorism's transition-back in the day, psychologists were trained in both then that transformed. Cognitivism took over as the paradigm then we had excellent breakthorughs in CBT/DBT. The idea that repression is either rampant or does not exist at all are both extreme views not supported by replicated research., though some researchers have a specific intepretation and fall into a "camp."

Clinical psychologists in varying degree tend to trust their clinical practice more than peer-reviewed papers, though the astute clinicians try to sta up to date and apply some findings over time.

Research Psychologists still apply behaviorism while others apply psychobiology or biopsychology models which all work in varying degrees within proper contexts. Neuroscience, Neuropsychology and hormone research are very revealing as well. Yet lots of this research is not replicatable.

There is a replication crisis in general in psychology and related fields.

Part of what I do, my expertise/niche is assess research methods/study design, and look at repication issues. My other major trainng involves lab research and the interaction of hormones and the CNS. If you think repression is non-existent-that's not what data shows-albeit hard to collect, analyze, and present.

Memory repression: brain mechanisms underlying dissociative amnesia - PubMed

Dissociative amnesia usually follows a stressful event and cannot be attributable to explicit brain damage. It is thought to reflect a reversible deficit in memory retrieval probably due to memory repression. However, the neural mechanisms underlying this condition are not clear. We used fMRI to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Are you equating false memories and implanted memories with the concept of repressed memories? In that case, I think I may agree with you, provided that "repressed memories" are likely iatrogenic, implanted, and false.

 

[statsprof]

Two patients is not exactly a body of evidence.

That is one link with additional citations. Given how extremely difficult it is to test what one remembers or thinks reliably you shoudl be able to appreciate that. Anyways, when you have time there are a plethora of references I left with larger sample sizes.

 

[statsprof]

Are you equating false memories and implanted memories with the concept of repressed memories? In that case, I think I may agree with you, provided that "repressed memories" are likely iatrogenic, implanted, and false.

Now you are just being facetious. I am doing nothing of the kind and you understand that. I am saying some claims of repressed memories are not real while others are real. The linked studies cover this as well. I do not expect anyone to read them all or in their entirety but I do expect some form of thoroughness if you want to reply; otherwise you will keep asking questions answered and making comments already addressed.

Certainly your professors expect more, yes?

 

[statsprof]

Nah, they are totally mature and well-informed of the debate, even if their citations don't actually say what they claim! We are the biased ones here /s

The classic use of ad hominems in an improper manner when your argument does not add up and you fail to read or understand the links provided. This is a sorry state of a thread. Clearly you did not read the studies. You can certainly believe repressions does not exist becuase you have not seen it, but to say the research showing it is lacking or non existent is not true. If is it not true, this at the very least means you are way too biased. How are you surviving literature reviews? I reall want to know. Anyways, you clearly are stuck in your beliefs over data.

 

[R. Matey]

The classic use of ad hominems in an improper manner when your argument does not add up and you fail to read or understand the links provided. This is a sorry state of a thread. Clearly you did not read the studies. You can certainly believe repressions does not exist becuase you have not seen it, but to say the research showing it is lacking or non existent is not true. If is it not true, this at the very least means you are way too biased. How are you surviving literature reviews? I reall want to know. Anyways, you clearly are stuck in your beliefs over data.

 

[R. Matey]

That is one link with additional citations. Given how extremely difficult it is to test what one remembers or thinks reliably you shoudl be able to appreciate that. Anyways, when you have time there are a plethora of references I left with larger sample sizes.

You're legitimately trolling now. You haven't provided any evidence of replicated fmri studies.

 

[statsprof]

You're legitimately trolling now. You haven't provided any evidence of replicated fmri studies.

You are making things up. I am definitely not trolling. One last time:

Can the Neural Basis of Repression Be Studied in the MRI Scanner? New Insights from Two Free Association Paradigms - PMC

The psychodynamic theory of repression suggests that experiences which are related to internal conflicts become unconscious. Previous attempts to investigate repression experimentally were based on voluntary, intentional suppression of stimulus ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

1 Quote:

"

Methods​

We used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) in addition with skin conductance recordings during two free association paradigms to identify the neural mechanisms underlying forgetting of freely associated words according to repression theory.

Results​

In the first experiment, free association to subsequently forgotten words was accompanied by increases in skin conductance responses (SCRs) and reaction times (RTs), indicating autonomic arousal, and by activation of the anterior cingulate cortex. These findings are consistent with the hypothesis that these associations were repressed because they elicited internal conflicts. To test this idea more directly, we conducted a second experiment in which participants freely associated to conflict-related sentences. Indeed, these associations were more likely to be forgotten than associations to not conflict-related sentences and were accompanied by increases in SCRs and RTs. Furthermore, we observed enhanced activation of the anterior cingulate cortex and deactivation of hippocampus and parahippocampal cortex during association to conflict-related sentences.

Conclusions​

These two experiments demonstrate that high autonomic arousal during free association predicts subsequent memory failure, accompanied by increased activation of conflict-related and deactivation of memory-related brain regions. These results are consistent with the hypothesis that during repression, explicit memory systems are down-regulated by the anterior cingulate cortex."

Clinical Manifestations of Body Memories: The Impact of Past Bodily Experiences on Mental Health

Bodily experiences such as the feeling of touch, pain or inner signals of the body are deeply emotional and activate brain networks that mediate their perception and higher-order processing. While the ad hoc perception of bodily signals and their influence on behavior is empirically well...

www.mdpi.com

Quote:
It is well-known that dissociation affects and is affected by memory. According to the dissociative encoding hypothesis, peritraumatic dissociation (occurring at the time of trauma) affects the encoding of trauma-related experiences leading to a general increase in physical symptoms and somatization [59,60]. It is assumed that a failure to integrate sensory memory traces into declarative memory may leave (implicit) body memories intact [38] causing, for example, intrusive flashbacks (see Section 2.1 above) or fragmentary recall of memories. Van der Hart et al. investigated self-reported memories in dissociative identity disorder patients and observed abnormalities in basic memory processing also for non-traumatic events [61]. In particular, memory recall in these patients occurred as a somewhat detached somatosensory experience and in the form of sensory fragments (e.g., vivid smells, tastes or somatic sensation), often lacking a clear autobiographical narrative or any related narrative during initial recall. In this view, dissociation appears to affect memory. Conversely, however, memory mechanisms may also lead to dissociative symptoms. Classical concepts of dissociation in hysteria by Pierre Janet and Siegmund Freud view unresolved or repressed (unconscious) traumatic memories as the cause for a tendency to dissociate (see [62]). According to this so-called defense hypothesis, somatic dissociative symptoms that follow the traumatic event serve to avoid the recall of stressful memories by disconnecting and protecting from unpleasant, overwhelming bodily experiences. Consequently, repressed body memories may have a corporeal presence in the form of somatic ‘blind spots’ and may manifest themselves, for example, in specific sensory losses such as if a ‘part of the body is just gone’ (for a detailed clinical case, see [63]).
A case report of a young woman with left-side conversion (i.e., functional neurological) symptoms involving sensory loss illustrates how a cerebral lesion may cause reactivation of implicit sensory memories, which contributes to the formation of dissociative sensory symptoms [64]. Following a traumatic event of rape, the woman developed physical symptoms such as skin swelling and rashes as well as sensory sensations of numbness confined to the exact left side of her body involving face, neck, trunk and limbs. In neurological examinations, a right parietal infarct was identified using MRI; however, no evidence of true sensory deficits was found using somatosensory evoked potentials. Psychotherapy led to a complete remission of sensory symptoms, which confirmed the diagnosis of somatization disorder with dissociative conversion symptoms.

Finally the so called memory wars are far from over in the research:

Dissociative Amnesia and DSM-IV-TR Cluster C Personality Traits - PMC

Dissociative amnesia is a disorder characterized by retrospectively reported memory gaps. These gaps involve an inability to recall personal information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature. Dissociative amnesia most commonly occurs in the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Quote:

Introduction​

As defined by Tulving, humans have three major types of memory.1 Episodic memory is remembering events as one would recall a movie. Semantic memory is knowledge about the world and memory of words, dates, and facts. Procedural memory is the ability to remember motor routines, such as combing one's hair. Loss of any of these types of memory can arise from organic damage to the neocortex, as in the case of a traumatic brain injury, a cerebral vascular accident (CVA), a space-occupying lesion, or a toxic exposure. Alternatively, memory deficits can result from extreme psychological stress, as seen in dissociative disorders.

Dissociative amnesia (DA) is generally considered the most common dissociative disorder2 and is defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (Fourth Edition), Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) as “one or more episodes of inability to recall important personal information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature, that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness” (Table 1).3
Recent advances in neurophysiology have clarified the process of memory from a biologic perspective, but DA also has a significant psychological component.7 There is a large body of literature on peritraumatic dissociation, which is too extensive to be covered here. However, it is worthwhile noting how several experts in the field conceptualize DA. Van der Hart described the Janetian view of dissociation as “the process and the product of psychological and somatic splitting, which result from the impact of trauma emotions.”8 Posttraumatic amnesia can be thought of as faulty ego integrative functioning in the setting of traumatic emotions. Gabbard conceptualizes DA in the following way: “Memories of the traumatized self must be dissociated because they are inconsistent with the everyday self that appears to be in full control.”9 Unlike repression, which can be thought of as horizontal split in the memory system, dissociation involves a vertical split.10 This results in the loss of memory for discrete periods of time rather than for discrete events.

Nearly all individuals with DA have significant comorbid psychiatric diagnoses, which if not treated will predispose the individual to recurrent eposides of amnesia.2,9 Frequently, these diagnoses include personality disorders, which are described in the DSM-IV-TR as “enduring subjective experiences and behavior that deviate from cultural standards, are rigidly pervasive with onset in late adolescence or early adulthood, are stable through time, and result in unhappiness and impairment.” The 10 recognized personality disorders are divided into three groups or clusters with Cluster A (paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal) perceived as odd and eccentric; Cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic, narcissistic) being dramatic, emotional, and erratic; and Cluster C (avoidant, dependent, obsessive compulsive) described as anxious and fearful.3



I see you practice and are a verified expert. Kudos.

 

[statsprof]

And the research and debate continues:

Using repressed memories and the impact of childhood trauma

This articles discusses trauma & repressed memories. Processing repressed memories is critical to long term health & medical treatment.

mentalhealthcenter.com

Kevin William Grant—Registered Psychotherapist - When Memories Vanish: The Phenomenon of Dissociative Amnesia

Kevin William Grant— Registered Psychotherapist, Psychological Associate in Supervised Practice, Professional Certified Coach, Life Coach

www.kevinwgrant.com

This metaanlysis shows that more higher quality larger sample sied brain scan studies but only included higher quality studies they could find:

What are the neural correlates of dissociative amnesia? A systematic review of the functional neuroimaging literature - PMC

Dissociative amnesia is an emblematic psychiatric condition in which patients experience massive memory loss ranging from focal to global amnesia. This condition remains poorly understood and this review aims to investigate the neuroanatomical ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I am not shying away from the need of more rigorous fMRI based and similar brain scan studies as quoted below, however, enough exist with observations to support the DA and repressions claims.

5. Conclusion​

Dissociative amnesia is an uncommon neuropsychiatric condition. Its pathophysiology is unclear, but our review in the field of neuroimaging studies suggests abnormal functioning of the DMN at rest and of the SN and the CEN when patients attempt to retrieve memories. The underlying mechanism might involve an overly activated memory suppression system, but further studies are needed to confirm this theory. The scientific literature about DA lacks methodologically strong studies, and despite numerous reports published in the field of neuroimaging in DA, only one of these publications is a prospective and controlled study, the remaining articles being, for the most, case reports. Moreover, most of the studies included used molecular imaging and task-performing fMRI. More recent approaches in the field of neuroimaging like resting-state fMRI could be of use to define more precisely the discrepancies among brain networks in future experiments. As very few forms of care management have scientifically shown their efficacy for DA yet, the unveiling of these in vivo mechanism using functional imaging may help scientists to define novel targets for neuromodulation treatments in this neuropsychiatric disorder.

 

[statsprof]

Back to work.

 

[R. Matey]

I see you practice and are a verified expert. Kudos.

Thanks, I'm a real renaissance pirate.

So, I think you're confusing dissociative amnesia with memory repression. DA refers the inability to to recall events during a dissociative state (non-controversial). Repression is a ego-defense mechanism from psychoanalysis. In DA, memories theoretically cannot be recalled. In repression, they theoretically can be recalled. The former is typically associated with a dissociative disorder (which are uncommon), the latter is dubious because it's easy to generate false "memories" and doesn't mechanistically work in any way science currently understands memory.

It probably goes without saying that none of what you linked are independent sample replications of fmri studies with humans showing that repression is linked with neural activity in more than a handful of patients. Even if you had, correlation is not causation and individual differences are a thing. An ongoing issue is our field is not only the existence of x and y phenomena to a believable level of certainty, but its relevance to patient care. Memory repression has shown itself to be dangerous to patients and rests on dubious assumptions thus the standard of proof should be quite high.

 

[statsprof]

Thanks, I'm a real renaissance pirate.

So, I think you're confusing dissociative amnesia with memory repression. DA refers the inability to to recall events during a dissociative state (non-controversial). Repression is a ego-defense mechanism from psychoanalysis. In DA, memories theoretically cannot be recalled. In repression, they theoretically can be recalled. The former is typically associated with a dissociative disorder (which are uncommon), the latter is dubious because it's easy to generate false "memories" and doesn't mechanistically work in any way science currently understands memory.

It probably goes without saying that none of what you linked are independent sample replications of fmri studies with humans showing that repression is linked with neural activity in more than a handful of patients. Even if you had, correlation is not causation and individual differences are a thing. An ongoing issue is our field is not only the existence of x and y phenomena to a believable level of certainty, but its relevance to patient care. Memory repression has shown itself to be dangerous to patients and rests on dubious assumptions thus the standard of proof should be quite high.

Now we are getting to the center of it. I am not confused but I can see why you would think so and there is considerable literture on the issue of DA versus repression. I will address some of this below. You make several valid points above. I agree standards of evidence should ne very high-not proof per se as that is a more difficult standard to reach on psychology/neurpsychology/behavioral neuroscience.

I will try to keep this brief to allow for a dialogue. In Oversimplifications and Misrepresentations in theRepressed Memory Debate: A Reply to Ross: Oygaar et al., (2023, March 29) provide a rebuttal to Ross C. (2021, September 9) in False Memory Researchers Misunderstand Repression, Dissociation and Freud https://doi.org/10.1080/10538712.2022.2067095 where the debate of DA versus repression is argued out considerably. I will not start pasting a bunch of quotes, at least as of yet-you can red at your own leisure or if you have read them, you can review the highlights. There are other articles but these two pave the way to what you allued to above and discuss directly. There is considerable debate among colleagues of mine and in the literature as to whether DA and repression can be considered synomymous, similar/related, or quite distinct. In past lab research on the relationship between cortisol and stress levels oxtocin was evenually found to be major dampener or negative feedback for cortisol and related signs/symptoms that were expected to appear including but not limited to memory loss, increased BP, skin conductance etc. However, in other colleague;s research memor loss and repression were found to be related to heightened stress reponses and severe trauma with concommitant cortisol levels including delcarative and episodic. Repression, while not as common as Freud or mdoern day Psychoanalysts who dabble in brain scans is not as common as once thought but the emergin higher quality of research is showing evidence in that direction (repression and DA if we want to distinguish). Interestingly in PTSD and other traumas persons can either have high or lower than average cortisol levels. Repression is modeled as a self defense mechanism to reduce unbearable stress response which in the Lifespan Pysychology, Psychobiology, and Biopsychology labs there is emerging evidence as well as some better brain scan studies.

I will say I was not hapy with quite a few studies produced in labs I was in or partnered with and I will leave it that, so this is why I am so critical of any study or body or professionals who just dismiss or accept repression based upon a hand full of peer reviewed papers, preprints, and.or their PI/dissertation chair's opinion. I do see serious issues of quality in reseearch from both "camps," but there appears to be enough evidence to not simply state a consensus of literature and professional opinion dismisses all claims.

I want to point out that a significant % of fMRI studies in general as they relate to behavior, what one thinks, and believes are of low quality in general. They are far better along with PET, SPECT, etc, to look at blood/oyxgen flow, and diagnose physiological conditions like tumors, dementia (to a point that is), seizures, or neurological damage.

Then there is the issue of conscious suppression versus so called unconscious repression, temporary forgetting, heightened activity and memory enhancement of negative events in PTSD and related trauma, alterations in anygdala/hippocampal activity that can at times seem counterinutitive, along with brain region mass before a serious trauma event. This is not so straightforward.

Further reading addressing each of my claims above. These studies do not completely agree with each other and often contradict.

Relationship of hippocampal volumes and posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms over early post-trauma periods - PMC

Smaller hippocampal volume is associated with more severe posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) symptoms years after traumatic experiences. Posttraumatic stress symptoms appear early following trauma, but the relationship between hippocampal volume ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Association between Dissociative Symptoms and Morning Cortisol Levels in Patients with Post-traumatic Stress Disorder - PMC

Patients with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) showed inconsistencies in their cortisol level, an index of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis function. This study examined the relationship between dissociation, childhood trauma, and ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/traumatic-memories

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165178106002083

Enhanced Effects of Cortisol Administration on Episodic and Working Memory in Aging Veterans with PTSD - Neuropsychopharmacology

Though both glucocorticoid alterations and memory impairments have been noted in posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), it is not clear if these phenomena are causally linked. As there is emerging evidence that these domains become further altered in PTSD with increasing age, it is of interest to...

www.nature.com

The point for me as an educator is to consider all sides of the research and claims.

I will never deny that malingering exist, that false memory implantation exist, and just corrupted memories/deconstructive processes, but it is not clear from any study or metanalysis that all repession claims are false nor is it clear that DA and repression are completely distinct models of forgetting with only one being valid.

 

[statsprof]

I have full access to this behind a paywall, but I suspect all or most of you do too:

A scientometric and descriptive review on the debate about repressed memories and traumatic forgetting - PubMed

Recent work suggests that the debate surrounding repressed memory and traumatic forgetting continues today. To further investigate this debate, we performed preregistered scientometric analyses on publications on the debate about repressed memory to provide information about its bibliometric...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Redirecting

I will paste some highlights not on PubMed for free:

Highlights​

• •
  The present work aimed to investigate the debate regarding the existence of repressed memories and traumatic memories.
• •
  We performed a pre-registered review of publications (n = 416) retrieved by Scopus and WoS published from 1969 to 2022.
• •
  Three waves of publications were detected, the last indicates that the debate is alive. Dissociative amnesia is also used to refer to the phenomenon.
• •
  Almost 40% of scholars believe in repressed memories and 29% do not. The beliefs are strictly related to authors’ fields.
• •
  The debate is not over and suggests a lack of consensus among scholars concerning traumatic memories and repressed memories

 

[smalltownpsych]

Dissociation and difficulty recalling or reporting trauma and repression as described by Freud are completely different constructs? From a clinical stance, the reason why the memories are difficult to recall are not that relevant. Helping patients regulate their emotions and talk about the trauma and have a coherent narrative of their life and experience seems more important than quibbling over Freud being wrong about stuff back in the early days of studying this stuff.

 

[ThatPsyGuy]

Looking at some of the recent posts, im wondering if I should make a debate thread as well

 

[R. Matey]

Dissociation and difficulty recalling or reporting trauma and repression as described by Freud are completely different constructs? From a clinical stance, the reason why the memories are difficult to recall are not that relevant. Helping patients regulate their emotions and talk about the trauma and have a coherent narrative of their life and experience seems more important than quibbling over Freud being wrong about stuff back in the early days of studying this stuff.

Bad actions start with bad ideas--I suspect neither of us want to see the sequel to the repressed memories era, which was demonstrably harmful to patients.

 

[statsprof]

Bad actions start with bad ideas--I suspect neither of us want to see the sequel to the repressed memories era, which was demonstrably harmful to patients.

It's fair to say that the 1980's to early 2000's with a peak in the 1990's saw a plethora of false memory implantation and false recall. Assumimg eveything traumatic is repressed or most repression claims are true is indeed very dangerous.

 

[statsprof]

Dissociation and difficulty recalling or reporting trauma and repression as described by Freud are completely different constructs? From a clinical stance, the reason why the memories are difficult to recall are not that relevant. Helping patients regulate their emotions and talk about the trauma and have a coherent narrative of their life and experience seems more important than quibbling over Freud being wrong about stuff back in the early days of studying this stuff.

I think you make some great points here.