geographical biases

[ucd]

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I was wondering in terms of residency selection...How much preference/weight do Hospitals that are affiliated with pod schools in NY or CA or Fl give to their own pod students. Since students in those schools can rotate thru those hospital during their clinical years(3rd and part of 4th year)....wouldn't they would have a distinct advantage over someone who only did a 1 month externship?

Since most pod school only give their students 5-6 months for externship, wouldn't it be smart to only select a hospital that's not affiliated with a pod school, so that everyone is on the same playing field (graded soley on externship performance). It seems like if 2 applicants with same scores applied for a residency spot..the pod student that did well during his clinicals (3 and 4th yr) would beat out the kid that only did a 1 month externship. Any truth?? Just curious

 

[UNVME2]

I was wondering in terms of residency selection...How much preference/weight do Hospitals that are affiliated with pod schools in NY or CA or Fl give to their own pod students. Since students in those schools can rotate thru those hospital during their clinical years(3rd and part of 4th year)....wouldn't they would have a distinct advantage over someone who only did a 1 month externship?

Since most pod school only give their students 5-6 months for externship, wouldn't it be smart to only select a hospital that's not affiliated with a pod school, so that everyone is on the same playing field (graded soley on externship performance). It seems like if 2 applicants with same scores applied for a residency spot..the pod student that did well during his clinicals (3 and 4th yr) would beat out the kid that only did a 1 month externship. Any truth?? Just curious

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how nice you are to anyone with authority; if you're not a good student, you're not getting a spot worth getting. At large institutions, with the exception of those who's open policy is to only take their own students, there are just too many hands in the pot for any one person to be selected just because they went to x school or kissed up to y attending. Granted, they get more face time, but that may be to your advantage. I heard programs get board of seeing students from the same school applying. Bottom line, if you're good, you're good. If you're not, well then it doesn't matter how much ass you kiss.

Anecdotal, but I know of several less than stellar students text messaging PG1 residents at decent programs (who they were buddies with a few years before) begging for certain months to extern, only to be turned down.

 

[Paulywog]

Every program is different. I know some programs that are affiliated with schools that only take from that school only but don't advertise it. Many of the residency directors are teachers at the local Pod school and get to know the students really well. A student coming in from another school has to be stellar both academically and personality-wise. It DOES matter who you know in some instances. It's coming in handy so far. It gives you that little edge that you need when decisions are being made.

 

[347932]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how nice you are to anyone with authority; if you're not a good student, you're not getting a spot worth getting. At large institutions, with the exception of those who's open policy is to only take their own students, there are just too many hands in the pot for any one person to be selected just because they went to x school or kissed up to y attending. Granted, they get more face time, but that may be to your advantage. I heard programs get board of seeing students from the same school applying. Bottom line, if you're good, you're good. If you're not, well then it doesn't matter how much ass you kiss.

Anecdotal, but I know of several less than stellar students text messaging PG1 residents at decent programs (who they were buddies with a few years before) begging for certain months to extern, only to be turned down.

I humbly disagree. You need to be nice to EVERYONE you meet and speak to because in a small profession like ours, you never know who and where you might meet someone again. Put your best foot forward. Always (no pun intended). I have seen lesser students get accepted to excellent programs because they worked hard and were willing to learn. They may have not done exceptionally well on exams, but put them in front of a patient, and WOW, could they perform.

On the same token, I can tell you stories of how people got certain programs that would make your head spin. And it had nothing to do with their academics, BUT these are the very large exceptions so don't take this the wrong way.

Be who you are and the chips will fall into place.

Tell your buddies that residents have NO SAY in how externships are given out. Text messaging a resident begging for a certain month only does on thing. It gives the residents stories to tell. Please don't believe the "I'll see what I can do" BS that some people who think they have control over some situations will hand out to elevate themselves. I was an externship director for a residency for many years. We never asked our residents when we should ask people to come. It was always between myself and the Director of Medical Education at the residency.

I love hearing some of these stories of "I heard" this or that. Get the information from the source.

 

[UNVME2]

I humbly disagree.

With what, exactly? My point was that there are less than average students who think that just because they suck up to certain attendings and/or are friends with residents, their academic past does not count. Bottom line is that you need to bring the goods on the academic and professional side. It sounded like you're reply was in regards to me saying you don't need to be nice to everyone, but that wasn't my message. Sure you need to be nice to everyone, but being buddy buddy doesn't assure you anything if you don't have the knowledge.

 

[347932]

With what, exactly? My point was that there are less than average students who think that just because they suck up to certain attendings and/or are friends with residents, their academic past does not count. Bottom line is that you need to bring the goods on the academic and professional side. It sounded like you're reply was in regards to me saying you don't need to be nice to everyone, but that wasn't my message. Sure you need to be nice to everyone, but being buddy buddy doesn't assure you anything if you don't have the knowledge.

Being a good "student" to me implies doing well on exams. Being a poor "student" implies not doing well on exams. I disagree that simply because you don't do well on exams, you will not get a good program. Perhaps you are stellar in the clinic, patients love you, you can recite McGlamry verbatim, but you are a poor test taker, like I was.

There are just as many excellent "students" who can't explain themselves out of a paper bag and have personalities that rival a hyena's who also "suck up" and don't understand why they don't get matched to a program a "lesser" student matched with.

Again, a mediocre "student" who has the motivation to succeed and excel is far more teachable than a top 10 who thinks they are the cat's meow.

 

[JewOnThis]

Being a good "student" to me implies doing well on exams. Being a poor "student" implies not doing well on exams. I disagree that simply because you don't do well on exams, you will not get a good program. Perhaps you are stellar in the clinic, patients love you, you can recite McGlamry verbatim, but you are a poor test taker, like I was.

There are just as many excellent "students" who can't explain themselves out of a paper bag and have personalities that rival a hyena's who also "suck up" and don't understand why they don't get matched to a program a "lesser" student matched with.

Again, a mediocre "student" who has the motivation to succeed and excel is far more teachable than a top 10 who thinks they are the cat's meow.

I love it how all those "poor" students always bring up that personality, "stellar" in clinic, "my patients love me" BS.
Lets just face it, if you dont know your anatomy, biochem, physio....then you probably won't be a very good doctor.
You can teach a monkey to do surgery, but it's not all about doing surgery, you still have to know the etiology as well.

All the top programs don't have any of these poor students with bad grades, "dont do well in exams" types.
Just look at UPMC, INOVA, DEKALB.

 

[347932]

I love it how all those "poor" students always bring up that personality, "stellar" in clinic, "my patients love me" BS.
Lets just face it, if you dont know your anatomy, biochem, physio....then you probably won't be a very good doctor.
You can teach a monkey to do surgery, but it's not all about doing surgery, you still have to know the etiology as well.

All the top programs don't have any of these poor students with bad grades, "dont do well in exams" types.
Just look at UPMC, INOVA, DEKALB.

You may "know" all those things and not do very well in a more social environment. Also, you can ace every test but be a basket case when put in front of a real person to actually relay all the information you "know" to.

Interestingly, your monkey analogy is a good one. Being a good student in Podiatry School doesn't mean you can THINK. It means you can regurgitate information fed to you by your professors and the books you read and spit it back. It takes a special type of student who can ace the tests, integrate what you memorized, apply it in a real world setting and be able to relate to your patients. THAT'S a star. Those types of students are few and far between. The truly remarkable programs out there take all of that into account.

Which "top" programs are you referring to? Do you know all the residents from these programs for comparison's sake? Just curious...

Also, I speak from experience with teaching students, training residents and working in collaboration with my colleagues. What experience do you have?

 

[347932]

All the top programs don't have any of these poor students with bad grades, "dont do well in exams" types.
Just look at UPMC, INOVA, DEKALB.

You may be right. I didn't get one of those "top" programs, but am proud of the training I got. 3 years of residency when there weren't many to go around. I wasn't a top student, but you know what? I am asked to lecture nationally based on my expertise and knowledge. Guess who's in the audience? The same people who turned me down for some of those "top" residencies. Interestingly they seem to think I have enough to say to stick around for my lectures and ask about my expertise after I'm done speaking. Funny how that happens.

 

[janV88]

I'm just a P1 so I don't know anything but...

I always hear conflicting opinions on how to be a successful student. Some say you gotta be a "top" student ie grades. Others say grades don't matter...what matters is personality and who you know. I, however, have a different opinion. It all boils down to who works the hardest and who is more motivated. What separates "successful" students from the "top" or "bottom" or "average" students is that they are the ones that stay up later, wake up earlier, and go the extra inch. They may or may not get the "top" grades.

Slackers who think they can charm their way into a "top" residency or braniacs who think they can regurgitate their way into a "top" residency have nothing on the student who is hard working, dedicated, and motivated. Clerkship directors will notice this and, like any employer/boss, they will appreciate it and choose these students over the "top"/cocky student and the "bottom"/good personality students.

 

[JewOnThis]

I'm just a P1 so I don't know anything but...

I always hear conflicting opinions on how to be a successful student. Some say you gotta be a "top" student ie grades. Others say grades don't matter...what matters is personality and who you know. I, however, have a different opinion. It all boils down to who works the hardest and who is more motivated. What separates "successful" students from the "top" or "bottom" or "average" students is that they are the ones that stay up later, wake up earlier, and go the extra inch. They may or may not get the "top" grades.

Slackers who think they can charm their way into a "top" residency or braniacs who think they can regurgitate their way into a "top" residency have nothing on the student who is hard working, dedicated, and motivated. Clerkship directors will notice this and, like any employer/boss, they will appreciate it and choose these students over the "top"/cocky student and the "bottom"/good personality students.

Again P1.

Programs like INOVA, only take externs who are ranked top 25% of their class.

 

[UNVME2]

I disagree that simply because you don't do well on exams, you will not get a good program.

Well, you're taking my words out of context then creating an argument against it simply for the sake of disagreement. The criticisms are beyond the scope of topic with each successive post, so I'll leave it at that.

Related, though is another interesting trend in podiatry. The more I listen to older podiatrists talk (both in class and at meetings), the more aware I am of their need to distinguish themselves from their colleagues.

This usually comes in the form of person disagreeing with another's opinion, procedure, treatment, etc. just for the sake of disagreement because they have nothing intelligent to add to the topic that would otherwise distinguish themselves.

 

[janV88]

Again P1.

Programs like INOVA, only take externs who are ranked top 25% of their class.

What do you think will separate the students that will be ranked vs. the students that won't be ranked? The students that match and the students that don't. I'm willing to bet it's their work ethic.

 

[JewOnThis]

What do you think will separate the students that will be ranked vs. the students that won't be ranked? The students that match and the students that don't. I'm willing to bet it's their work ethic.

You obviously don't understand how externships work.

Go look it up.

 

[janV88]

You obviously don't understand how externships work.

Go look it up.

Did you even read my posts?

Some places only accept the top 25%, top 1/3, top whatever. Ok great. But what will separate these students (the "top" students)?

We all know people who are slackers and get a 4.0 and we all know people who have work their their butts off to get the 4.0. Now think about these people. Who has left a better impression on you...the slacker or the hard worker?

 

[air bud]

how about you be a great student and be great in clinic. These dont need to be mutually exclusive. Problem solved.

 

[347932]

Well, you're taking my words out of context then creating an argument against it simply for the sake of disagreement. The criticisms are beyond the scope of topic with each successive post, so I'll leave it at that.

Related, though is another interesting trend in podiatry. The more I listen to older podiatrists talk (both in class and at meetings), the more aware I am of their need to distinguish themselves from their colleagues.

This usually comes in the form of person disagreeing with another's opinion, procedure, treatment, etc. just for the sake of disagreement because they have nothing intelligent to add to the topic that would otherwise distinguish themselves.

Its really too bad that you feel simply because someone is in disagreement, they have nothing intelligent to add. Perhaps you should attend more conferences and learn about new procedures and the cutting edge of techniques and technology. Where do you think these come from? They come from disagreements concerning techniques and available technology. They come from those that disagree pushing to improve things. "Nothing intelligent to add"? Hardly.

What you are glossing over is the time honored experience factor. I don't need to distinguish myself from anyone. I am very comfortable with who I am as a practitioner, with my career, as well as my skill set and what I can offer to the younger, less experienced generation of practitioners. I'm on these forums as an attending (one of the few), to try and help you and others on this site. I do this of my own free will, and am not compensated for my time trying to help out. Next time you feel like taking a stab at me, you may want to consider that.

 

[347932]

Janv88 has the right idea. P1 or not.

 

[ucd]

Thanks for all the reply. so from what i have gathered here. I guess there are a few programs that might favor their own students. However, as long as you have the brains and the people skills...any program is still possible.

ANother question: lets say you have a free month..is it better to spend that

A)1 month at 1 program
B)4 programs, each 1 week long
C)8 programs, each a few days long

Option A: benefit is that its essentially another externship experience. Option B: seems like u get more opportunity to visit more program but for a shorter period of time. Option C: the benefits is seeing a lot of programs..but will a few days of interaction really impress the staff to the point where they will rank u? What would be the best scenario

 

[347932]

Thanks for all the reply. so from what i have gathered here. I guess there are a few programs that might favor their own students. However, as long as you have the brains and the people skills...any program is still possible.

ANother question: lets say you have a free month..is it better to spend that

A)1 month at 1 program
B)4 programs, each 1 week long
C)8 programs, each a few days long

Option A: benefit is that its essentially another externship experience. Option B: seems like u get more opportunity to visit more program but for a shorter period of time. Option C: the benefits is seeing a lot of programs..but will a few days of interaction really impress the staff to the point where they will rank u? What would be the best scenario

If you have the funds for option C, do it. That is assuming that you do this before interviews and have not spent any time at these programs through your externships or clerkships.

The question that you need to be prepared to answer when you visit all these programs is "Why didn't you extern here if you are interested in this program?". I promise you you will be asked this if you go on a program visitation "tour".

 

[ucd]

Hello Kidsfeet,

Can you please explain why option C would be the best use of one's time? Is it b/c u can visit a lot of programs and at least get a little face time in? I guess in terms of programs ranking an applicant it would be exernship>>>few day visitation>>>>>>>never even visited and just applied?

You bring up a good question, I mean considering how many good programs are out there 5-6 programs is just getting at the tip of the iceberg. Aren't money/ travel/ school only allowing us an allotted number of months good reason why we might not be able to extern at some programs?

 

[347932]

Hello Kidsfeet,

Can you please explain why option C would be the best use of one's time? Is it b/c u can visit a lot of programs and at least get a little face time in? I guess in terms of programs ranking an applicant it would be exernship>>>few day visitation>>>>>>>never even visited and just applied?

You bring up a good question, I mean considering how many good programs are out there 5-6 programs is just getting at the tip of the iceberg. Aren't money/ travel/ school only allowing us an allotted number of months good reason why we might not be able to extern at some programs?

Yes you want as much exposure to as many programs as you can. "Face time" can help or hurt you depending on the impression you leave with the program you visit. The fact of the matter is that if you have a stellar externship at a program, you'll have a much better chance than someone who just visits UNLESS the person who just visits trumps you on the interview (which is mostly academic btw). If you've never visited, but ace the interview, are invited to the cocktail social and invited back for a second interview, then you're one of the lucky few. Chances are, even if a program gets to know you just for a little bit, and are impressed by you, your name will stay on people's tongues there at the very least.

Yes you are right about only having certain months to extern, but you still can't leave the impression that this program you are visiting for a few days is second fiddle. Its a fine line on how to deal with it and the question I brought up is an unfair way to approach a potential applicant imho, but they will ask anyway, just to see how you field the question. They will ask something like "If you want this program so badly why didn't you extern here?". My issue with this is that it is a BS question to put you on the spot, but its asked anyway. The fact that you're spending time, effort and money to visit should be reason enough as you said. Some of the big shot programs don't agree with this mentality. The ideal situation for this would be that program only select their residents from their externs, but this has bit so many programs in the butt, that I don't think many programs do this anymore. It also may hurt their chances at a great resident, since those programs that only select from their externship pool have a lot of competition for spots for their externships and some great potentials slip through the cracks.

Be smart and honest and as I've said in other posts, the chips will fall into place.

 

[ucd]

Thanks Kidsfeet! That was very insightful and I think would be very helpful to all current 3rd year students and underclassmen. Thanks again!

 

[347932]

Its my pleasure to try and help when I can. 😀

 

[krabmas]

Again P1.

Programs like INOVA, only take externs who are ranked top 25% of their class.

this is not always true. It depends on the year and the applicant pool. They say it on the CASPR website because that is what they prefer, but if you apply anyway, you may be lucky and get an externship.