Georgetown SMP or not?

[KapS86]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hey Guys,

I have applied to med schools this summer, my first application cycle, and am now waiting to hear back. The application georgetown SMP is now open and I have started filling it out. On the website it says you need a 3.0 GPA and a 28 MCAT at the least to be considered into the program. My GPA is a 3.52 and my MCAT is a 28. I wanted to know if I have a good shot at getting into the program.

My MCAT improved 2 points from the first time I took it. Any suggestions? Thank you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Hey Guys,

I have applied to med schools this summer, my first application cycle, and am now waiting to hear back. The application georgetown SMP is now open and I have started filling it out. On the website it says you need a 3.0 GPA and a 28 MCAT at the least to be considered into the program. My GPA is a 3.52 and my MCAT is a 28. I wanted to know if I have a good shot at getting into the program.

My MCAT improved 2 points from the first time I took it. Any suggestions? Thank you.

Lots of things I'd like to suggest.

First, it sounds like you applied fairly late in the cycle. If you don't get in this year, then be ready to hit submit on AMCAS on June 1 next time.

Second, Georgetown is but one of many SMPs, and as with med school, you should apply early and broadly. Be thinking about maybe 5 programs.

Third, your GPA is considerably more attractive than your MCAT score. The average accepted applicant in the last MSAR had an average GPA of around 3.6, and an average MCAT around 31.

Fourth, an SMP is an expensive and risky option for GPA improvement. Your GPA is really high to justify that expense.

Fifth, that MCAT score on a 2nd take may be what's getting you negative attention. A dramatic improvement on a 3rd take would still say "needs multiple tries to succeed on standardized tests." But I think a 32+ against a 3.52 is fairly competitive.

So my advice would be to spend some money and a lot of time on getting a 32+ MCAT, and spend another chunk of money and time with a professional adviser like Judy Colwell. You'd be saving about $45,000 compared with doing an SMP.

Or, let your MCAT be what it is, and do an SMP if you're sure you're ready to get A's in 1st year med school coursework.

My $.02.

Best of luck to you.

 

[KapS86]

Hey,

Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify, I actually had all my secondaries (15 of them) completed by the first week of august, which I thought was fairly early to apply.

 

[DrMidlife]

Hey,

Thanks for the advice. Just to clarify, I actually had all my secondaries (15 of them) completed by the first week of august, which I thought was fairly early to apply.

Yep, that's early. Nevermind that part.

 

[mic2377]

I would definitely do a "gut-check" if you plan on doing an SMP.

1) They cost $$$, especially G-town
2) You have to work really, really hard to do well, and you better be ready for it.
3) You do bad, that is the end of med school dreams
4) It is risky, plain and simple.

What is commonly misunderstood is that many think that doing an SMP and making a "pass" in classes is good enough. But, it isn't. You have to make a "high-pass" or "honors" grade, which means that you are trying to place in the top 10-25% of the med school class. Think of the students you would be competing against at G-town - the med students are probably all in the 3.7/34 range, and you somehow have to outscore these really smart people.

As I am currently a SMP student, I have seen other students crash and burn and it isn't good. Plus, most SMP's have MCAT averages that are quite high, some even in the 32-33+ range.

Taking the MCAT again and nailing a 32+ would be vastly easier, cheaper, and less stressful in my opinion.


My $.02~

 

[AnthroMD]

You have a blunt yet realistic view of the SMP, I like it. I'm planning on applying to SMPs this semester, but I am taking the MCAT in January. As a current SMP student, how have you seen students of my credentials do in your class: sGPA 3.1 cGPA 3.35. I realize I would certainly need a 30+ in January

I would definitely do a "gut-check" if you plan on doing an SMP.

1) They cost $$$, especially G-town
2) You have to work really, really hard to do well, and you better be ready for it.
3) You do bad, that is the end of med school dreams
4) It is risky, plain and simple.

What is commonly misunderstood is that many think that doing an SMP and making a "pass" in classes is good enough. But, it isn't. You have to make a "high-pass" or "honors" grade, which means that you are trying to place in the top 10-25% of the med school class. Think of the students you would be competing against at G-town - the med students are probably all in the 3.7/34 range, and you somehow have to outscore these really smart people.

As I am currently a SMP student, I have seen other students crash and burn and it isn't good. Plus, most SMP's have MCAT averages that are quite high, some even in the 32-33+ range.

Taking the MCAT again and nailing a 32+ would be vastly easier, cheaper, and less stressful in my opinion.


My $.02~

 

[TheGoose]

What is commonly misunderstood is that many think that doing an SMP and making a "pass" in classes is good enough. But, it isn't. You have to make a "high-pass" or "honors" grade, Think of the students you would be competing against at G-town - the med students are probably all in the 3.7/34 range, and you somehow have to outscore these really smart people.

this just is not true. if the goal of the smp is to gain admission to medical school, then a pass is a good grade. That's not to say you're going to Harvard, but a pass in the SMP means that you are scoring just as well as the average G-town medical student (which as the quoted poster said, are a smart group of people with good numbers). So, by scoring the mean grade of a G-town med student, you're showing med schools that you can get grades equal to that caliber of student.

 

[wannabesrgn]

Hey Anthro,

Your gpa range is exactly where most of the SMP students are at. You have a decent shot at getting in assuming your extra-currics are good. The MCAT is what you can control right now and you should focus 200% on that. You need to shoot for as high as you possibly can because SMP or no SMP that will really help your chances of getting in.

With that said, nobody knows anyone else's credentials in the class and we are advised not to discuss it with each other. It can get fairly competitive in the program and it's best to maintain your current grades and past academic history with yourself and your advisors.

However, like I said the majority of people are in your GPA range. Also, most of us are in this position because we spent too much time doing extra-currics so our apps are very strong in other aspects other than GPA. So I believe that is a big determining factor in whether you will get in. They really emphasize that they look at the entire application and not just the numbers. I hope the rest of your app is strong.

As far as how you will do in the program is really up to your motivation to achieve medical school. It's really not possible to understand how much work it takes to do well in the program until you are in the program. It's not impossible, but you really have to be motivated.

Also, numbers don't reflect anything about potential. That's what the program is all about. It's hard to gauge how someone will do based on their gpa in undergrad. I'd say it comes down to how serious you are about taking on this beast of a curriculum and how relentless your drive to be a doctor is.

The whole pass vs honors vs high pass crap is all pretty much BS from anyone's perspective. It's just not possible to say what will work and what will not. With or without the SMP, med schools are very unpredictable. Yes, as Goose said, they have told us many times that a B is okay because you are demonstrating you are just as capable as the avg Gtown student. However, they have also said that all B's is not gonna cut it.

Either way, I think your main question was for us to gauge how people with your numbers are doing and it's just not possible to truthfully answer that. Sorry.

 

[AnthroMD]

Yes in retrospect, it is respectful to each other not to discuss that kind of information, I apologize.
My scheduled classes are not too difficult this semester so I am taking this semester to prep for the MCAT, I am aiming for higher than a 30. I was reading the '09 MCAT/AAMC Official Guide to the MCAT Exam that published 46% of ppl cGPA 3.2-3.39 accepted w/ MCAT 30-32 and 55% w/MCAT 33-35.
I have some work to do!
I feel like I've heard from enough people the high risk nature of SMP but if medicine is the goal then you do what you have to do. It's definitely unsettling at first, but as my dad always said: the 6 Ps of Success: Proper Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance!

 

[tacrum43]

The idea that "it is a misconception that a pass is good enough" is obviously being said by someone who has NEVER been involved with the Georgetown SMP.

Well, speaking as an alum, it is a misconception if you're planning on attending Georgetown med after completing the SMP. You need to get the equivalent of Honors in most classes to get in.

However, it is true you don't need to Honor everything in the SMP for a shot at other med schools if your application is otherwise good. High passes are OK (which is about a B+/A- in the SMP equivalent). However, doing even better is helpful. Getting all passes would not be so good, as Drexel, SLU and NYMC have an unofficial cut off for Georgetown SMP students of 3.5.

That being said, I got plenty of straight passes myself and got into GW (which I personally much prefer to Georgetown), so it's true it can be done. 🙂

 

[DrJD]

The idea that "it is a misconception that a pass is good enough" is obviously being said by someone who has NEVER been involved with the Georgetown SMP.

It is a misconception that a pass is good enough...

There, said by an SMP alum 🙂

Seriously, every class mate I know who went into the SMP and got all or mostly passes did NOT get into medical school. You have to remember that passes show up as B's on your transcript. The SMP does its best to let schools know via many letters what a B in their classes actually means. Some of the schools that work with the SMP often have a very good understanding of that. However, many do not. So to them, it will just look like you have a 3.0 in a masters program. Most people expect a 4.0 in a masters program.

I've talked directly with the dean of admissions at 3 US medical schools and they all told me that in order for the SMP to mean anything I needed a 3.8 or above. These were people who understood how SMP grades worked.

The administration tells you that B's are okay because the truth is most of the students will get those because it is a difficult program. You should not come to the SMP, and get all passes. If you get mostly passes then all of a sudden a couple low passes in the more difficult courses means that you don't get your diploma, you'd be surprised how often this happens.

All that to say, it is a misconception that all you have to do in an SMP is pass. You need to outperform current medstudents to show that you have what it takes to make up for your lower undergrad GPA. That means high pass or above.

Just my 2 cents.

PS.
I'll just edit to add that I don't want what I said above to be construed as "if you get one pass you are out of the game." Not true at all. But you need your SMP gpa to be 3.5 or higher to be taken seriously by most medical schools. That means that for every pass you get, you need to get an honors to balance it out. Just keep that in mind.

 

[TheGoose]

tacrum - i qualified what i said by saying "a med school"...i totally agree with you about high grades to get into georgetown though....

drjd - fair enough.

 

[Looking Glass]

It is a misconception that a pass is good enough...

There, said by an SMP alum 🙂

Seriously, every class mate I know who went into the SMP and got all or mostly passes did NOT get into medical school. You have to remember that passes show up as B's on your transcript. The SMP does its best to let schools know via many letters what a B in their classes actually means. Some of the schools that work with the SMP often have a very good understanding of that. However, many do not. So to them, it will just look like you have a 3.0 in a masters program. Most people expect a 4.0 in a masters program.

I've talked directly with the dean of admissions at 3 US medical schools and they all told me that in order for the SMP to mean anything I needed a 3.8 or above. These were people who understood how SMP grades worked.

The administration tells you that B's are okay because the truth is most of the students will get those because it is a difficult program. You should not come to the SMP, and get all passes. If you get mostly passes then all of a sudden a couple low passes in the more difficult courses means that you don't get your diploma, you'd be surprised how often this happens.

All that to say, it is a misconception that all you have to do in an SMP is pass. You need to outperform current medstudents to show that you have what it takes to make up for your lower undergrad GPA. That means high pass or above.

Just my 2 cents.

PS.
I'll just edit to add that I don't want what I said above to be construed as "if you get one pass you are out of the game." Not true at all. But you need your SMP gpa to be 3.5 or higher to be taken seriously by most medical schools. That means that for every pass you get, you need to get an honors to balance it out. Just keep that in mind.

Yes, I'm actually in the University of Cincinnati SMP right now and that's the similar vibe that I'm getting from the school admissions director and previous alumni, a pass means that you're good enough for medical school, but it isn't going to help your case if you already have a low undergrad GPA. Similarly, one or two passes isn't going to kill your application, but a string of them without any noticeable improvement probably will.

That said, I completely agree with the Georgetown folks about how hard it is to get a Honors or even a High Pass. We just had our first block exam and I know many people in our program got hammered on Biochem and Physiology. The medical students set the bar high and since this was their first exam, everyone probably overstudied for it (their averages were in the mid to low 80s).

Fortunately, if it's any consolation, the first block exams are usually the hardest ones since we're not really familiar with the format of the exams. Our program director stresses us to wait until after our second block exam before we send out update letters because experience has taught him that people usually do better on the second or third set of exams. Obviously, everyone's going to study harder for their second set of exams, but they do provide us with a lot of resources for tutoring and doing well.

 

[KapS86]

Thanks guys for all the input.
I am definitely motivated to do well and I understand going in (if accepted) that I will need to be better than average to have a shot at gaining entry into medical school.

As for the MCAT, I have thought extensively about re-taking it. However, there is always the chance that I don't improve as much. If my scores dont improve by that much after my third time of taking it, my chances of gaining entry would be lowered.

As for the EC's on my app,
-2 years of ER shadowing
-Volunteering at Nursing home since Feb
-2 summers of research
-2+ years as teaching assistant at my unviersity in biology dept for various courses
-Tutoring dental school student in physiology and histology since feb for a tutoring agency
-2 years of work
-Have a interview for EMS volunteer this week


Wannabesurgn- I hope you are right, when you say they look at the rest of your app.

 

[wannabesrgn]

Thanks guys for all the input.
I am definitely motivated to do well and I understand going in (if accepted) that I will need to be better than average to have a shot at gaining entry into medical school.

As for the MCAT, I have thought extensively about re-taking it. However, there is always the chance that I don't improve as much. If my scores dont improve by that much after my third time of taking it, my chances of gaining entry would be lowered.

As for the EC's on my app,
-2 years of ER shadowing
-Volunteering at Nursing home since Feb
-2 summers of research
-2+ years as teaching assistant at my unviersity in biology dept for various courses
-Tutoring dental school student in physiology and histology since feb for a tutoring agency
-2 years of work
-Have a interview for EMS volunteer this week


Wannabesurgn- I hope you are right, when you say they look at the rest of your app.

Yeah, I think you have a good shot. Your MCAT is the lower limit they say for the program, but your gpa is definitely above their average student. So I think you'll have a decent chance of getting in, esp if you apply early!!! The thing is you may have a difficult time getting considered by med schools with that MCAT score. I have heard that students that retake the MCAT after the Gtown program do significantly better, partly due to new study habits you form and a significantly stronger grasp of bio. So you might consider doing the program, seeing if you get any responses from med schools and if not take the MCAT again. Just a suggestion.

Yes, they definitely look at the entire app. All the students in the program right now are very well-rounded. It's the main reason we don't have stellar gpas, most of us spent a little too much time doing research or clinical or comm service work, most likely all of the above...I think our interest in medicine is shown through the rest of our app and that's what they really take into consideration. They have also told us they spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time reading over our apps and trying to get an idea of what we are really about...much more than med schools do.

Hope this helps!