GEP at UCD and RCSI

[MonsterCookie]

Hi all,

As the days inch closer towards acceptance/rejection letters, I can't help but to compare and contrast the schools I applied to. I've done some research on the 4-year GEM programs at UCD and RCSI; both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I can't seem to put my foot down on which I would rather attend if I had the choice. Whether you are a current student or graduate from either school, or a prospective student like me, any insight on any of the following questions would be great!

1. (Curriculum) How do the schools compare in terms of how lectures are delivered? Is there a difference in teaching methods?

2. (Upper year medicine) How do the teaching hospitals compare between UCD and RCSI?

3. (School/learning environment) Like many GEP applicants, I'm more accustomed to a large campus with students from many different disciplines. I know that Year 1 and 2 GEP students at RCSI are placed away from the main campus to designated facilities. Do you like/dislike this system?
As for UCD, I do not really have the chance to visit the campus as I live in North America; what is your feel of the campus and its medical facilities?

4. (Finances) Is the hefty tuition fee (compared to that of UCD) really worth going to RCSI?

5. If you are an international student, how was your transition to life in Ireland?


OVERALL--would you pick the GEP at RCSI or UCD?


My apologies for the lengthy post; any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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[JohnSnow]

Hi all,

As the days inch closer towards acceptance/rejection letters, I can't help but to compare and contrast the schools I applied to. I've done some research on the 4-year GEM programs at UCD and RCSI; both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I can't seem to put my foot down on which I would rather attend if I had the choice. Whether you are a current student or graduate from either school, or a prospective student like me, any insight on any of the following questions would be great!

1. (Curriculum) How do the schools compare in terms of how lectures are delivered? Is there a difference in teaching methods?

2. (Upper year medicine) How do the teaching hospitals compare between UCD and RCSI?

3. (School/learning environment) Like many GEP applicants, I'm more accustomed to a large campus with students from many different disciplines. I know that Year 1 and 2 GEP students at RCSI are placed away from the main campus to designated facilities. Do you like/dislike this system?
As for UCD, I do not really have the chance to visit the campus as I live in North America; what is your feel of the campus and its medical facilities?

4. (Finances) Is the hefty tuition fee (compared to that of UCD) really worth going to RCSI?

5. If you are an international student, how was your transition to life in Ireland?


OVERALL--would you pick the GEP at RCSI or UCD?


My apologies for the lengthy post; any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I don't think this is an issue you'll have to worry about. If you look at where people have reported that they've been accepted in the past it seems like they've been accepted either to RCSI or UCD, but not both. Few, if any, on here have reported being accepted to both.

 

[Alexander III]

I don't think this is an issue you'll have to worry about. If you look at where people have reported that they've been accepted in the past it seems like they've been accepted either to RCSI or UCD, but not both. Few, if any, on here have reported being accepted to both.

Do you know why that is? Do applicants just withdraw other applications once they get accepted since they don't want to pay both schools to hold their spot?

 

[jf1987]

Do you know why that is? Do applicants just withdraw other applications once they get accepted since they don't want to pay both schools to hold their spot?

I think that there is some degree of coordination between the schools. This ensures that the largest number of people get in somewhere and all spots between the schools aren't taken up by the same group of more competitive applicants.

 

[macstjo]

I think that there is some degree of coordination between the schools. This ensures that the largest number of people get in somewhere and all spots between the schools aren't taken up by the same group of more competitive applicants.

Let's be careful here. Unless you aren't 100% sure, please try to avoid stating your opinion that may possibly lead others mistaken or confused.

 

[jf1987]

Let's be careful here. Unless you aren't 100% sure, please try to avoid stating your opinion that may possibly lead others mistaken or confused.

That is why I said "I think".

 

[JohnSnow]

x

 

[chx]

Look at boards.ie, its the Irish forum and they have loads more comparisons between all the different programs (direct entry and GEP/GEM)

Here is a very good and very accurate summary of RCSI GEP I.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73040232

I can't make a comparison between RCSI and UCD (I go to RCSI) but here are some positives:

- I actually LOVE the sandyford campus. I came from a large university and thought I would miss the sports and the "campus" feel, but really, undergrads are just annoying. Having a home with free coffee and tea, white boards, couches etc that only we use and not having to deal with Mercer Library is amazing. Facility-wise though, RCSI is not great. St Stephen's green building is really really old. There are basically no amenities (not that you'll have time for them anyway).

- I can't say for certain, but I am pretty sure that we are the only college that has early rotations. You start "mini- rotations" of Wednesday afternoons starting in second semester. In the summer of your first year you have a full 4 week rotation in med or surg. I am almost certain UCD doesnt have such early access to hospitals.

- 2nd year is based out of a hospital (Connelly), so there is quite a bit of clinical days. On the downside its in Blanchardstown which is not in city center.

- From week 2 onward you attend Surgical Grand Rounds (via satallite hook-up). Starting in second semester you also attend Medical Grand Rounds. I enjoy these, but they are early in the morning.

- UCD is kind of far from city center and not very accessible. Sandyford is easily accessible by LUAS so most of us live in town which is preferable (fun-wise); despite Sandyford being further south than UCD, it takes much less time to get into town than if you lived at UCD (45mins by bus v. 20mins by LUAS) Thats really the only direct comparison I feel qualified to make. So lack of campus at RCSI, but you get to live in city center. As someone who is not 18, this trade-off is more than preferable.

- Hospitals at RCSI in later years (and 1st year to some extent) can be really far away. Thats either a negative or positive depending on how you look at it I guess. You get to experience more of Ireland that way and its nice to get out of Dublin. RCSI takes care of transportation (they bring you back on weekends) and sets you up with what is usually a B&B to stay at.

- I can't compare curriculum at all, but we do get quite a bit of USMLE support (and I suppose the Canadian equivalent too). You learn a lot very quickly. Its mostly lecture based, with a case based tutorial every week and clinical skills once a week as well. In particular the Anatomy is excellent. Traditionally a surgical school, they really take pride in anatomy and procedure teaching. Also, note for UCC GEM, you don't do the dissections, you watch a demonstrator. I think this is mostly true in the 5/6 year programs too. And Limerick doesnt have cadaviers. I think Trinity lets you cut (we share the same instruction videos as them), no idea what UCD does.

---------
finances: It is more expensive to go to RCSI and while I can't say if I think its "worth it", I do feel like we get really good administrative support (this is rare in Ireland), we get lots of USMLE resources and we get some name recognition. Dublin is an expensive place to live though, so factor that in.

Transition: I don't know what your experience is, I have been away from "home" for many years before I came to Dublin so transition to living independently isn't an issue - and those in the class who did make that transition didn't seem to have any problems. The food is different (you will eat a lot more french fries), there are different brands of things, they spell words wierdly (oedema is my least favorite), they pronounce words even wierder (trachea), dates are arranged wierdly (as is the calendar, actually its more logical). Mostly its funny and interesting and at worst its frustrating. Irish are very nice and very helpful. It was an easy transition.

I have no regrets about coming to RCSI at all. Hopefully someone at UCD can comment about their experience so you can compare. Good luck!

 

[MonsterCookie]

Thank you SO much for your input chx. Your post was very helpful; regardless of whether or not we're comparing the two schools, I appreciate any information on either school really.

Do you know what the current situation is regarding graduates securing a residency match back in the U.S. or Canada? I've heard that it is getting increasingly VERY difficult to come back to either country, as there are that many more students going overseas every year (given the competitive nature of medical school admissions, particularly in Canada) and yet such few residency spots for these graduates who planned on returning. As with many applicants, this is my biggest concern of going to Ireland (or to any other country for that matter) for medical school--not being able to come back to train and work back at "home" after completing the program. Any insight on this?

 

[Alexander III]

I know that getting a Canadian residency spot is getting increasingly harder however; I found out recently that an RCSI grad secured the first match in one of the radiology residencies, which is one of the most competitive fields, at least in Canada. That being said, certain medical fields in Canada already have too many docs so you may want to take that into consideration when choosing a specialty. My understanding is that many Irish grads have little to no problem securing a residency in the United States although you may not get into your top residency choices. Also Irish schools have a very good reputation in North American in general which should make you more competitive than many other international grads. I know quite a few docs who graduated from an Irish school, did their residency in the United States and then moved back to Canada. This process can be a bit tedious since you would also have to write exams for each country in order to practice medicine. (info on those exams is available online and on other threads),

Most of the above information I have heard from Canadian docs who have some involvement with residency programs and not from forums or other internet sources which may or may not be more accurate. If I made any mistakes please correct me.

 

[JohnSnow]

Thank you SO much for your input chx. Your post was very helpful; regardless of whether or not we're comparing the two schools, I appreciate any information on either school really.

Do you know what the current situation is regarding graduates securing a residency match back in the U.S. or Canada? I've heard that it is getting increasingly VERY difficult to come back to either country, as there are that many more students going overseas every year (given the competitive nature of medical school admissions, particularly in Canada) and yet such few residency spots for these graduates who planned on returning. As with many applicants, this is my biggest concern of going to Ireland (or to any other country for that matter) for medical school--not being able to come back to train and work back at "home" after completing the program. Any insight on this?

People have been saying it's going to be crazy hard for FMGs to land residencies for the last 10 years or so.

There are a couple things you have to consider.

- Where was the school? Was is it in an English-speaking highly developed country? Or was it somewhere like the Caribbean?
My opinion is that medical schools in the UK, Ireland, Australia, & New Zealand are probably viewed more favorably than Carib schools just because the admissions standards are higher and they cater primarily to their own populations, not US/CAN citizens. So assuming your board scores are competitive, I think graduates from the aforementioned countries will probably have an easier time getting residencies than Carib grads if it came down to a choice between the two.

- The data for FMGs residency match is poor, everyone just gets lumped into one big pool. I would be willing to bet that a vast majority of those who do not match have a critical flaw, e.g. they don't speak English very well so programs don't see them as ideal candidates to practice in the US or Canada yet. Or perhaps they are US/CAN citizens that went to one of the more dodgy Caribbean schools (the schools outside the 'big 4').

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter!

 

[chx]

RCSI has good matches. The canadians tell me that its harder to match in Canada than it is in the US, but thats hearsay. A lot of them take the USMLE as well.

Alexander - dont know anyone who matched in Canada in radiology last year but the match list for Canada is quite impressive nonetheless... neurosurgery, anaesthesia, urology, OBGYN, neuro, ortho and paeds, with of course a bunch of GP and IM. US had ER, IM, Surgery as the majority with matches to places like Mayo, Brown, Dartmouth, Cleveland clinic.

Unless you are dead set on plastics or derm at harvard, I wouldn't worry too much about it. The fear of not matching is crazy good motivation during those rough 1 am study sessions in the third week of finals though.

 

[MonsterCookie]

Reports from the CaRMS (and those of the NRMP in the U.S.) does raise some difficulties with respect to securing residency positions back in North America...here are the links to the 2011 reports:

http://www.carms.ca/eng/index.shtml
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf

We can always hope and do our best to not fall in the majority--the group of IMGs that go unmatched--but it's certainly a concern when thinking about whether or not I should go overseas for medical school...

 

[Lbgem]

- UCD is kind of far from city center and not very accessible. Sandyford is easily accessible by LUAS so most of us live in town which is preferable (fun-wise); despite Sandyford being further south than UCD, it takes much less time to get into town than if you lived at UCD (45mins by bus v. 20mins by LUAS) Thats really the only direct comparison I feel qualified to make. So lack of campus at RCSI, but you get to live in city center. As someone who is not 18, this trade-off is more than preferable.

It's not 45 just fyi. It's about 20-25 min depending on traffic. 45 minutes would suck.

As for cadavers, we have them, we also do dissections/have prosections/etc. The anatomy here is pretty good and I would rank it up there with RCSI's, though as I am not at RCSI it's hard to say . Though the couple of embryo lectures tossed in felt weird.

 

[MonsterCookie]

It's not 45 just fyi. It's about 20-25 min depending on traffic. 45 minutes would suck.

As for cadavers, we have them, we also do dissections/have prosections/etc. The anatomy here is pretty good and I would rank it up there with RCSI's, though as I am not at RCSI it's hard to say . Though the couple of embryo lectures tossed in felt weird.

I'm guessing you're a student at UCD...? If so, how are you liking it there? Pros/cons?

 

[Lbgem]

I'm guessing you're a student at UCD...? If so, how are you liking it there? Pros/cons?

I should be studying for pharm now... but I'm procrastinating a little bit.

Yes, I'm at UCD. I think it's alright. I find that I'm probably much more of a hands on/clinical work type person than all this book learning the first two years.

Cons - Lectures can be disorganized/random in quality, depending on who you get. I felt like 10% of the lectures were good (as in you learned a lot more listening to the lecture than you would studying on your own), whereas the other 90% fell in the - I could study better on my own instead of sitting in class for x hours a day, especially since some lecturers just read off the slides and the desks made me feel a little claustrophobic. That being said, I didn't feel the 10% was worth the 90% loss of time, so I'm studying on my own most of the time. That being said, not everyone does this, probably 50% of the class or so goes to lectures - it might be higher, but I would say that's roughly the amount that I see in the lectures I do go to.

I did go to all of the class at the beginning of last semester - found PBL to be a time waster as the cases weren't given ahead of time so you can study/read up on things it could be. Group projects - there are 2 classes for the year that do this - are not the best use of time imo. I.e. we're having to research things like cell phones...cycle helmets and fat tax.

Also don't like there are gaps in between classes so you're stuck on campus all day sometimes if you live a while away.

I absolutely don't like the essay tests here. A majority of the tests are essay based, which can be hard to get used to, and it seems that anything that isn't objective grading, is very subjective. I.e. I missed one question out of 10, and the grader gave me a grade he 'felt' I deserved, since there were no points assigned to any of the questions.

No USMLE focus here really. So that's a downside for me, but you have to understand that the med schools here are designed to train Irish based physicians, not catering to americans, which is fine, but something to get used to.


Pros - There are a few good lecturers - if you figure out which ones are good, going to these lectures is a good use of your time. I liked Giles for anatomy, Koon Meng Chan for micro, and the clinical skills session this semester is useful - learning blood pressure, stethoscopes - this is the time to seem like a n00b and mess things up and be fine about it. Also, usually professors are very good about responding to students, though there are some that I have tried emailing and never gotten a response from, so students aren't their priority.

I do like the Irish, very friendly bunch of people, and the GPs here are really great. I really really liked one of my GP visits this semester and I learned so much in just a couple of hours of being there. I guess this means I'm definitely more clinically oriented than academically .

I like the fact A is considered I think 70% (or 80) but I think it's 70, which is nice, but keep in mind a good portion of your grade at least for the first year is all essay based, which I feel is out of your control for the most part. Sure you have to know your stuff, but the grade you get seems subjective. I was discouraged to look at my exams by other students since it's apparently not 'done' here, so it's hard to know what you did wrong or what they're looking for. I am probably going to try to look at my midterms regardless of what is 'right' or 'wrong' though since i do want to learn what I should be improving.

It's definitely a different culture, though it's less Irish than you imagine it to be if you're an American.

I do like that most classes are not mandatory so it basically gives you flexibility if you're not the type that learns best by auditory. The upper years are also really helpful and nice and will try to help you pass as much as they can.

Hearsay says that we match well, though most of us tend to go into Internal medicine/pediatrics/FM. I'm leaning towards EM/IM myself.

Also, to counter the UCD doesn't have access to hospitals, we do, but just not rotations like you guys at RCSI. It's more lectures at the hospitals, one was good, another was bad, so it's sort of a crapshoot. Also, I believe some people picked UCD over RCSI because of the training hospitals in later years - just what I heard, so take this with a grain of salt, cause I'm not super sure of which hospitals both schools use.


So overall, after reading over the pro-RCSI post, RCSI does sound nice, you do pay more money. The extra USMLE support there is also nice, but most of the things you will learn are self-study anyways. I would say go to whatever school you get into. I don't think there's a huge difference between the two, but if you had all the cash you wanted then RCSI might be the right fit for you.

UCD is huge, also means a lot of activities and non-med people. One of my good friends is not in the medicine program, and a few of my friends are also not in med. It's nice to have variety. So I would say UCD you're sort of more independent/less supported so that might be your cup of tea.


Feel of the campus - it's like a typical big college campus, pretty average. Okay back to pharm studying. I think this ended up being a big rambling post, so feel free to ask questions.

 

[MonsterCookie]

Thanks Lbgem! I appreciate your time, especially since you're in the middle of studying...yuck, pharmacology...

To be honest, I'm just hoping to get into either school; since I won't really have the chance to see and judge the schools myself (and Ireland in general for that matter) before receiving my application results, I just wanted to hear first-hand what life as a med student is like at the schools I applied to, as well as to get a sense of what it is like as an international student. There are times when I still debate whether I should go overseas...I won't receive any results until mid-March, but since there isn't much time to confirm your seat in the class (if you receive an offer), I just want to be informed as much as possible, being the extremely indecisive person that I am...haha...

Thanks again and all the best with your studying!