German medical school question.

[micky]

I'm an undergraduate in the united states. What would i need to do to go to medical school in germany. What is the procedure, application, requirements, and all that.

I understand it's a 6yr program (no undergrad.) so being a 2nd year student in the usa, leaving me with 4 years until i graduate in germany?
Thanks

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[SweetMD]

to go to med school in germany you'd have to be fluent in German. with just a high school diploma you might not get into university, because the german high school system is a little different. but as a us undergrad that should be ok, however you'd have to start in the beginning of med school (because of the way the curriculum is set up) you couldn't transfer and do only 4 yrs from an US undergrad. and the duration is more like 7 yrs total because of state board exams. other people may have additional info, or things may have changed, but that is what I know.

I'm an undergraduate in the united states. What would i need to do to go to medical school in germany. What is the procedure, application, requirements, and all that.

I understand it's a 6yr program (no undergrad.) so being a 2nd year student in the usa, leaving me with 4 years until i graduate in germany?
Thanks

 

[PathOne]

Are you planning to work in Germany/Europe? If your plan is to go back to the US, it's probably a bad idea to get a German MD.

Apart from the fact that you'd have to be fluent in German (and be able to prove it by taking a language test) you can risk being on a waiting list for up to three years, and not know where you'd actually end up studying.
Also, the medical training, although excellent, is VERY different from the US system. There's a much higher emphasis on theoretical knowledge, and a corresponding lower emphasis on clinicals. And the exam system is very different. Oral and written exams, rather than multiple choice - which will put you at a disadvantage when taking the USMLE. Not because you don't know the answers, but because it's a very different format.

And, as previous poster wrote, there's no way you can do it in four years. If you're LUCKY they'll credit you a science course or two, but that's it. So it's a long and difficult road to travel.

 

[BellKicker]

I agree with the two posters above. Unless you're half German or something like that, I would try to get into a US school.

As for getting credit transferred, I know one girl who did her pre-med at UCLA and was accepted into several US med schools. She got one semester's worth of credit at my (Scandinavian) school. She's the only one I know of to get any such credit transferred.

 

[Miklos]

All good points...

 

[GABA]

I'm an undergraduate in the united states. What would i need to do to go to medical school in germany. What is the procedure, application, requirements, and all that.

I understand it's a 6yr program (no undergrad.) so being a 2nd year student in the usa, leaving me with 4 years until i graduate in germany?
Thanks

Hi,
I am a medical student from Germany. As an American citizen you have to apply directly at the universities. A list of the medical schools can be found under http://www.thieme.de/viamedici/fach/fakultaeten/links.html. Contact the International Office (Akademisches Auslandsamt-AAA) at your choosen university for further information!
The best website for international applicants is:
www.daad.de/deutschland/en/index.html
There you find all necessary information about the application procedure and much more.
Medical school lasts 6 years and is divided into two parts (preclinical = Erster Abschnitt der Ärztlichen Prüfung / clinical = Zweiter Abschnitt der Ärztlichen Prüfung). Each part ends with a state board exam, which consists of 360 multiple choice questions, an oral and practical (just after the second part) exam.
Good websites about med school in Germany:
www.medi-learn.net
www.thieme.de/viamedici
www.medi-foren.de

The above postings are right, except that there are only very few written exams (80% of my previous exams were multiple choice - but this might be different at med schools with POL).

Feel free to ask further questions!

 

[micky]

How does the yearly salary compare to a german doctor vs an american one?
For surgery?

 

[PathOne]

How does the yearly salary compare to a german doctor vs an american one?
For surgery?

It should be no surprise that statistically NO M.D. makes more than a US Doc. Just look at the health costs as a percentage of GDP.

However, a few things to bear in mind:
- Student loans A LOT lower if you train in Europe.
- NO mal prac insurance costs
- Generally better working hours
- Generally good employer-paid pension schemes
- You don't have to pay to put your kids through college

That being said, it'll never make up for the difference. Esp. since income taxes generally a lot higher, and living costs generally comparable, and sometimes higher than in the US.

For specific numbers: European residents broadly are paid the same as in the US (pre-tax). A board certified specialist in Western Europe generally would make 100,000-150,000 USD pre-tax - Surgery would be no higher or lower than most other specialities. GP's, through, have higher variations, and you can find some in private practise (derms etc.) that can prob. pull in around 300,000-400,000 USD, but that's comparatively rare.

If you go to Eastern Europe, be in for a surprise. In Poland, a specialist at a private hospital can be paid around 10,000 USD/year!!!

IF you have a German background (med school and/or language) you can go to Switzerland, which probably pays the most. But forget about it if you're not a EU citizen.
Also, in Germany, France and Switzerland it CAN be difficult to get residency and/or find work, due to overcapacity of M.D.'s.

 

[GABA]

It should be no surprise that statistically NO M.D. makes more than a US Doc. Just look at the health costs as a percentage of GDP.

However, a few things to bear in mind:
- Student loans A LOT lower if you train in Europe.
- NO mal prac insurance costs
- Generally better working hours
- Generally good employer-paid pension schemes
- You don't have to pay to put your kids through college

That being said, it'll never make up for the difference. Esp. since income taxes generally a lot higher, and living costs generally comparable, and sometimes higher than in the US.

For specific numbers: European residents broadly are paid the same as in the US (pre-tax). A board certified specialist in Western Europe generally would make 100,000-150,000 USD pre-tax - Surgery would be no higher or lower than most other specialities. GP's, through, have higher variations, and you can find some in private practise (derms etc.) that can prob. pull in around 300,000-400,000 USD, but that's comparatively rare.

If you go to Eastern Europe, be in for a surprise. In Poland, a specialist at a private hospital can be paid around 10,000 USD/year!!!

IF you have a German background (med school and/or language) you can go to Switzerland, which probably pays the most. But forget about it if you're not a EU citizen.
Also, in Germany, France and Switzerland it CAN be difficult to get residency and/or find work, due to overcapacity of M.D.'s.

Well said!
I think the salary of a specialist in Germany is rather 70,000-120,000 USD but actually I am not sure, as I haven`t concerned myself with that issue, yet. If you want to earn much money, then the US is definitely the better choice.

 

[Miklos]

It should be no surprise that statistically NO M.D. makes more than a US Doc. Just look at the health costs as a percentage of GDP.

However, a few things to bear in mind:
- Student loans A LOT lower if you train in Europe.
- NO mal prac insurance costs
- Generally better working hours
- Generally good employer-paid pension schemes
- You don't have to pay to put your kids through college

That being said, it'll never make up for the difference. Esp. since income taxes generally a lot higher, and living costs generally comparable, and sometimes higher than in the US.

For specific numbers: European residents broadly are paid the same as in the US (pre-tax). A board certified specialist in Western Europe generally would make 100,000-150,000 USD pre-tax - Surgery would be no higher or lower than most other specialities. GP's, through, have higher variations, and you can find some in private practise (derms etc.) that can prob. pull in around 300,000-400,000 USD, but that's comparatively rare.

If you go to Eastern Europe, be in for a surprise. In Poland, a specialist at a private hospital can be paid around 10,000 USD/year!!!

IF you have a German background (med school and/or language) you can go to Switzerland, which probably pays the most. But forget about it if you're not a EU citizen.
Also, in Germany, France and Switzerland it CAN be difficult to get residency and/or find work, due to overcapacity of M.D.'s.

Good post. However, I think that you've left out one crucial detail.

Generally speaking, gaining specialty certification takes a lot longer in Europe than in the U.S. This means that in direct comparison, the European post-graduate trainee will be stuck at a much lower salary for longer.

Why?

Because the overwhelming number of doctors in Europe work directly or indirectly for the government monopoly healthservice. The monopoly has a vested interest in keeping down wages and extending post-graduate training so as to limit costs.

So, if you want to work as a civil servant for a government monopoly, IMO, Europe is an excellent choice.

Miklos

 

[GABA]

Generally speaking, gaining specialty certification takes a lot longer in Europe than in the U.S. This means that in direct comparison, the European post-graduate trainee will be stuck at a much lower salary for longer.

How long does it take to become a specialist for surgery in the US? Here in Germany it lasts 6 years.

 

[Miklos]

How long does it take to become a specialist for surgery in the US? Here in Germany it lasts 6 years.

General Surgery is a five year post-graduate residency in the U.S.

From when do you begin counting the six years?

 

[GABA]

General Surgery is a five year post-graduate residency in the U.S.

From when do you begin counting the six years?

Direct after med school.

 

[PathOne]

Good post. However, I think that you've left out one crucial detail.

Generally speaking, gaining specialty certification takes a lot longer in Europe than in the U.S. This means that in direct comparison, the European post-graduate trainee will be stuck at a much lower salary for longer.

Why?

Because the overwhelming number of doctors in Europe work directly or indirectly for the government monopoly healthservice. The monopoly has a vested interest in keeping down wages and extending post-graduate training so as to limit costs.

So, if you want to work as a civil servant for a government monopoly, IMO, Europe is an excellent choice.

Miklos

Very true, and an important aspect. In the US one usually, at most, do a transitional year before beginning specialist training. While the length of specialist training is roughly the same in the US and Europe, there has been a tendency to create too few specialist training slots in a lot of European countries. So it isn't unheard-of that one can spend anywhere from 5 to 15 years (!) before getting a training slot.

That's time spent in residencies, but generally not something that counts towards board certification.
For completeness, however, it should also be noted, that to my knowledge there's generally no board exam in Continental Europe, or recertification. So if you get your training spot, you'll get board certified, regardless of your competence - or lack of same.

However, mobility is, at least in theory, better in Europe than in the US. In the US, you have to apply for a state license if you move to another state. And if you are a FMG, or have mal prac issues, that can be a problem. But in the European Union you have the RIGHT to be licensed and/or board certified in 25+ countries, if you're EU-trained and an EU-citizen. However, language and other barriers obviously can make that a moot point.

 

[C. Ronaldo]

I am learning German to study medicine in Germany. I think it is the best choice for me. I am not really interested in the higher earnings that America has to offer, because although America offers a high paycheck, the society is screwed up. I think it is a huge advantage being able to work in all of Europe once you are finished. As a UK citizen who has already got a degree from a US university, I have been informed that as long as I can pass the DSH German exam, I will be able to go to medical school next January. If I was going to try to go to medical school in the US, I would have to wait until I get a greencard, save up about $120,000, spend a lot of money on a postbac program to bring up my GPA, and worry about the increasingly more stringent immigration rules that the US has. In Germany, medical school is pretty much free.

 

[PathOne]

I am learning German to study medicine in Germany. I think it is the best choice for me. I am not really interested in the higher earnings that America has to offer, because although America offers a high paycheck, the society is screwed up. I think it is a huge advantage being able to work in all of Europe once you are finished. As a UK citizen who has already got a degree from a US university, I have been informed that as long as I can pass the DSH German exam, I will be able to go to medical school next January. If I was going to try to go to medical school in the US, I would have to wait until I get a greencard, save up about $120,000, spend a lot of money on a postbac program to bring up my GPA, and worry about the increasingly more stringent immigration rules that the US has. In Germany, medical school is pretty much free.

There are most certainly other things in life than getting a big fat paycheck. Medicine in Europe is by no means inferior to medicine in the US - in fact, you will avoid the increasing focus on "defensive medicine", which can certainly be a good thing.

Since you are a UK citizen, you can basically get your training for free, and be able to "port" your license anywhere you want to within Europe (also bear in mind, that unlike in the US there is NO standarized way to get a non-European medical degree and/or board certification approved in Europe). So your plan makes perfect sense, provided that you become fluent in German.
So best of luck with your plans...

 

[SweetMD]

I agree with everything that's been said here, except the following I know to be incorrect:

That's time spent in residencies, but generally not something that counts towards board certification.
For completeness, however, it should also be noted, that to my knowledge there's generally no board exam in Continental Europe, or recertification. So if you get your training spot, you'll get board certified, regardless of your competence - or lack of same.

There are board exams for every specialty in Germany which are quite intense long oral boards in front of a panel of doctors of the particular specialty. Once you have completed the time/procedures/exposures you need you can set up to take the exam. You cannot be certified without it.

 

[PathOne]

OK. Let me rephrase that: ...there's generally no board exam in Continental Europe comparable to the US system.

Yes, there is a mandatory specialist exam in Germany. By law, it is oral only, and by law, the entire thing should generally be completed within 30 minutes. If that constitutes a "quite intense long oral boards" I would let others judge.

Also, the requirement for oral boards doesn't apply to people who has trained outside Germany. The German goverment is by law required to accept any specialist training which is deemed acceptable by any other EU-state. It's actually the same principle as in the US (a Cardiologist is a Cardiologist in both Alaska and Florida, if (s)he has passed the national boards exam.
Only difference is, that there's still quite a large difference in specialist training (and board exam requirements) across Europe. From the UK & Ireland, which has a system broadly similar to the US boards, to countries where all is good unless your dept. head said you went AWOL for extended periods.

 

[ROBINHO]

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[PathOne]

A challenging idea, as there are quite a number of hurdles:

Medical license:
In the US the system is quite organized. You'd have to register with ECFMG and pass the USMLE steps.
In Europe, it's much more of an individual assesment, which may or may not require you to take university examinations and/or work for free in observerships.

Legal issues:
US: You'd need a J-1 or H-1B visa or green card to work in a residency. Not that easy to get, except J-1 which invariably requires you to go back to Brazil for 2 yrs after you finish your residency.
Europe: A permernent resident permit and work permit is getting pretty hard to get.

Residency:
US: Large malpractise liability issues (read: six-digit insurance premiums) have made neurosurg. less competitive. In 2001, 93% of residency spots went to US seniors. In 2004 it was 79%.
Europe: Not the same liability issues, but generally considered a difficult match.

Language:
Generally, more or less fluency of the language in the European host country is a requirement. This can be a major deal-breaker!

So in order for you to go from Brazil to Germany you'd need to:
1) Learn German.
2) Estabish what's required for getting a work permit.
3) Find out if and how you'll get a medical license, and how competitive you'd be for a neurosurg residency.

Personally, I would tend to think that the UK, Portugal (b/c of language) and the US would be easier than Germany. And in all instances, you'd have to be top-notch in Brazil before it would be workable.

 

[C. Ronaldo]

Is it true that German Universities are going to start charging fees quite soon? If it is true, does anyone know how expensive it will be? Does Austrian medical schools cost a lot of money?

 

[GABA]

Is the German language a requirement for residency spots??

Of course! How else do you want to talk to patients?

Is it true that German Universities are going to start charging fees quite soon? If it is true, does anyone know how expensive it will be? Does Austrian medical schools cost a lot of money?

Yes, tuition fees are coming, but probably only at the universities of certain states, like Bavaria or Baden-Württemberg, which are governed by the Christian Democratic Union (CDU). The situation und the amount of fees are still unclear (range from 500 up to 2000 Euro/semester in the long term). Btw, here in Germany one semester lasts 6 month. I think, the fees are going to be introduced in the following winter term (starts in october).

Austria: Tuition fees are about 363 Euro/semester for EU students and 726 Euro/semester for non-EU students. (http://www.auslaenderin.at/modules.php?name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=2)

 

[Miklos]

Austria: Tuition fees are about 363 Euro/semester for EU students and 726 Euro/semester for non-EU students. (http://www.auslaenderin.at/modules.php?name=Sections&sop=viewarticle&artid=2)

I checked the admission requirements for Austrian medical schools a couple years ago. At that time, they told me that unless I came from a third-world country, I would need to prove that I could gain admission into a medical school in my own country before they would consider my application. Additionally, living in Austria is far from cheap.

For US citizens, unless they have some sort of financing, Germany is a problem, as one cannot get Stafford loans for German schools.

Miklos

 

[ROBINHO]

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[PathOne]

Ouch. That's a toughie. Obviously, your desire to become a neurosurgeon would be looked on with sympathy - IF the training institution can be reasonably sure that you'll actually go back to Ghana and not stay to make $$$. For instance, Harvard runs a two-year program in derm designed for that purpose. (which doesn't make you US board eligible).

However, to effectively train in neurosurg. you'd need a medical license, because otherwise no country would allow you to hold the scalpel yourself. And honestly, I think that's equally difficult in the US and Europe. Perhaps the best thing to do is to contact your Ghanian health authorities and ask if they have any cooperation agreements in place.

 

[karimmakarem]

I'm an undergraduate in the united states. What would i need to do to go to medical school in germany. What is the procedure, application, requirements, and all that.

I understand it's a 6yr program (no undergrad.) so being a 2nd year student in the usa, leaving me with 4 years until i graduate in germany?
Thanks

10 years later. What did you do ?

 

[Docofthe World]

I am learning German to study medicine in Germany. I think it is the best choice for me. I am not really interested in the higher earnings that America has to offer, because although America offers a high paycheck, the society is screwed up. I think it is a huge advantage being able to work in all of Europe once you are finished. As a UK citizen who has already got a degree from a US university, I have been informed that as long as I can pass the DSH German exam, I will be able to go to medical school next January. If I was going to try to go to medical school in the US, I would have to wait until I get a greencard, save up about $120,000, spend a lot of money on a postbac program to bring up my GPA, and worry about the increasingly more stringent immigration rules that the US has. In Germany, medical school is pretty much free.

Hello, I have a question for you.
Are you actually in German right now and doing Medicine there? My case is very similar to yours. I would like to know what kind of steps have you done in order to get accepted. Thanks and please reply back.