Getting around applying to medical school without volunteering?

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fmpak93

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Yeah yeah, go ahead and tell me I'm beating a dead horse or some other wise*** cliche bs, I could never bring myself to do it during college(applying this summer btw) because the idea of it felt so...mild and bleh, like it doesn't show anything except that I kinda know how things run in a hospital(not to mention most of the work given to people is mostly just clerical busy work)...but is that even a sufficient basis to judge an applicant? I've done biomechanic research, I've rode the ambulance as a volunteer EMT sort of thing, shadowed, clubs and what not, it is just this silly common premed requirement I can't even bring myself to do it and the fact that - my opinion here - the admission office even BELIEVES or judges this is how pre-med can attain any sort of true understanding of working in the medical field or it shows "true exposure" is silly to me. Sorry if that offends anyone. Is there a way to explain during an interview or on an application why I didn't really bother going through with this holy mother of all extracurricular activities? Or should I just suck it up and just get some hours in to make sure I don't screw myself over here.
 
I understand what you mean and tend to agree. It's just apart of the "game" that we have to play. Not sure if you should do it at this point, though. You really do need it but this late in the game you might just look desperate. You are unlikely to have any significant volunteer experiences between now and June when your app is being reviewed anyways. So, I dono?

Unless you plan on putting in like 8 hours a week that is..
 
Btv22 said:
I understand what you mean and tend to agree. It's just apart of the "game" that we have to play. Not sure if you should do it at this point, though. You really do need it but this late in the game you might just look desperate. You are unlikely to have any significant volunteer experiences between now and June when your app is being reviewed anyways. So, I dono?

Unless you plan on putting in like 8 hours a week that is..
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Hmmm true, 100 hours of experience spread out over a year vs 100 hours spread over a few month doesn't change the fact it was 100 hours of experience, am i wrong? But I could see why it'd seem desperate, looks like I'm just trying to appease admission offices(who isn't lol) But true I guess it's just part of the game. :/
 
J Senpai said:
What? Do you just really not like helping people?
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No I hate people, and I wanna hurt them. haha just playing 😛 it's not really that black and white buddy. I don't think doing clerical work(yes this is what most volunteers end up doing) in a hospital shows any correlation to a passion for helping patients and treating them. I care about people, I love people, and this is the road I have chosen 🙂
 
fmpak93 said:
Hmmm true, 100 hours of experience spread out over a year vs 100 hours spread over a few month doesn't change the fact it was 100 hours of experience, am i wrong? But I could see why it'd seem desperate, looks like I'm just trying to appease admission offices(who isn't lol) But true I guess it's just part of the game. :/
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It's about caring for and helping people. Not about making yourself look good.
 
J Senpai said:
It's about caring for and helping people. Not about making yourself look good.
Click to expand...

In theory, but in the higher education admissions world, this is rarely true in practice. 🙁
 
fmpak93 said:
Yeah yeah, go ahead and tell me I'm beating a dead horse or some other wise*** cliche bs, I could never bring myself to do it during college(applying this summer btw) because the idea of it felt so...mild and bleh, like it doesn't show anything except that I kinda know how things run in a hospital(not to mention most of the work given to people is mostly just clerical busy work)...but is that even a sufficient basis to judge an applicant? I've done biomechanic research, I've rode the ambulance as a volunteer EMT sort of thing, shadowed, clubs and what not, it is just this silly common premed requirement I can't even bring myself to do it and the fact that - my opinion here - the admission office even BELIEVES or judges this is how pre-med can attain any sort of true understanding of working in the medical field or it shows "true exposure" is silly to me. Sorry if that offends anyone. Is there a way to explain during an interview or on an application why I didn't really bother going through with this holy mother of all extracurricular activities? Or should I just suck it up and just get some hours in to make sure I don't screw myself over here.
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Put simply:

No volunteer experience = game over

Edited: I learned this the hard way in college admissions and was rejected at some schools where I would have otherwise been a competitive applicant because I was morally opposed to listing volunteer activities on my application. I did those things to help people not for an application. I agree that the system can be a bit backwards.
 
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J Senpai said:
It's about caring for and helping people. Not about making yourself look good.
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Ideally you are correct. But I'm sad to say that isn't why 95% of the premeds I know volunteer at a hospital. I can bet you we all care and would love to help people, but the system or "game" has shaped things to make that purpose secondary next to making our application stronger so we can just get into a medical school because the game demands it. If volunteering wasn't a required or highly recommended EC, most pre-meds wouldn't bother doing it trust me. It's just how things are. :/
 
fmpak93 said:
Ideally you are correct. But I'm sad to say that isn't why 95% of the premeds I know volunteer at a hospital. I can bet you we all care and would love to help people, but the system or "game" has shaped things to make that purpose secondary next to making our application stronger so we can just get into a medical school because the game demands it. If volunteering wasn't a required or highly recommended EC, most pre-meds wouldn't bother doing it trust me. It's just how things are. :/
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But also remember that there are different types of volunteer work. You can choose where you volunteer. Working with the elderly, disabled, and young children can be very rewarding. And NOT ALL VOLUNTEERING must be clinical, although you should obviously have some clinical experience. Habitat for Humanity, soup kitches, tutoring children, etc. all count.
 
knv2u said:
But also remember that there are different types of volunteer work. You can choose where you volunteer. Working with the elderly, disabled, and young children can be very rewarding. And NOT ALL VOLUNTEERING must be clinical, although you should obviously have some clinical experience. Habitat for Humanity, soup kitches, tutoring children, etc. all count.
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Haha this is true. I do volunteer at my emergency rescue squad, I'm so unlucky every night I stay over at the headquarters but we get no calls: 🙁 I'm hoping we get some soon 🙂 I've tutored children in math reading before haha and am part of a non-clinical volunteering organization as well. My cousin actually got into penn state med school and and university of illinois for MD/Phd last year with zerooooooo clinical experience besides shadowing for some hours.
 
Even if you have your bases covered in terms of volunteering, the way you write and talk about the work you have done will show your true level of care and devotion. That's why med schools want people to have volunteering work on their applications. It's not the hours or venue that are the metric, it's experience and understanding gained by the applicant.
 
fmpak93 said:
Haha this is true. I do volunteer at my emergency rescue squad, I'm so unlucky every night I stay over at the headquarters but we get no calls: 🙁 I'm hoping we get some soon 🙂 I've tutored children in math reading before haha and am part of a non-clinical volunteering organization as well. My cousin actually got into penn state med school and and university of illinois for MD/Phd last year with zerooooooo clinical experience besides shadowing for some hours.
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You look fine to me.
 
Just do volunteering. Seriously just suck it up.

Sometime people just hid in the supplies closet and played games on their phones. As bad as it sounds, these people actually do that sort of thing because they don't want to sit and staple packets together in the copy machine room for their volunteering in an ER. It honestly depends on the department and hospital for how much you get to do, but sometimes you end up getting shafted and kids start doing desperate things.

Other examples:
- Clock in, leave the hospital, come back and clock out
- When they go deliver something, they just take the longest possible route ever like walking through 6 floors of the hospital just to drop off a urine sample in the lab and then basically take 2 hours to get back.
- Lock themselves in the bathrooms so no one can find them and then they just browse on their phones etc.

These are obviously things you shouldn't do but its honestly what you make of it.
 
J Senpai said:
Even if you have your bases covered in terms of volunteering, the way you write and talk about the work you have done will show your true level of care and devotion. That's why med schools want people to have volunteering work on their applications. It's not the hours or venue that are the metric, it's experience and understanding gained by the applicant.
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Exactly, though my post was mainly targeted at hospital volunteering I do agree it helps you show schools true level of care but like the post CSqueed posted, people mess around, hide from their work, they just want the hours, they don't actually enter the hospital with some motive to help patients. It's just part of the system they have to get through because they know their chances at becoming doctors will be hurt if it doesn't appear on their application or essays. Even now, some of us have to apply many MONTHS early just to get a future VOLUNTEER position. I can get jobs quicker than some people can with just volunteering position because there is a huge waiting list for volunteer applicants and we know our world isn't that lovely that we have a waiting list for volunteers simply because they all just care and love humans so much that we can't accept anymore loving volunteers.
 
CSqueed said:
Just do volunteering. Seriously just suck it up.

Sometime people just hid in the supplies closet and played games on their phones. As bad as it sounds, these people actually do that sort of thing because they don't want to sit and staple packets together in the copy machine room for their volunteering in an ER. It honestly depends on the department and hospital for how much you get to do, but sometimes you end up getting shafted and kids start doing desperate things.

Other examples:
- Clock in, leave the hospital, come back and clock out
- When they go deliver something, they just take the longest possible route ever like walking through 6 floors of the hospital just to drop off a urine sample in the lab and then basically take 2 hours to get back.
- Lock themselves in the bathrooms so no one can find them and then they just browse on their phones etc.

These are obviously things you shouldn't do but its honestly what you make of it.
Click to expand...

And it these people that will talk about how volunteering was amazing and how it showed their undying devotion to helping out people and whatnot :/ You're right it really is what you make of all of it.
 
fmpak93 said:
And it these people that will talk about how volunteering was amazing and how it showed their undying devotion to helping out people and whatnot :/ You're right it really is what you make of all of it.
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Yeah sadly they will probably just make up a story for interviews.
 
Spinach Dip said:
What? No way!!

Why, if that were true, it would mean we live in an institutionalized culture of lies where those who are honest are at a major disadvantage!
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What? Life isn't fair? We are actually not all born equal?? The lies!!!!!
 
When the entire institution of med school admissions prefers applicants who lie over those who tell the truth, something has gone very awry.
 
Spinach Dip said:
What? No way!!

Why, if that were true, it would mean we live in an institutionalized culture of lies where those who are honest are at a major disadvantage!
Click to expand...

It happens. That's life. You don't think there is a lot of spin in medical school applications? Suddenly those ECs are viewed through a rose colored lens, and seemingly meaningless experiences often become transformative. I don't agree with it, but I'm sure it happens. I suppose that part of the purpose of interviewing people is to try to weed out liars (to make them trip up, analyze their behavior, etc.), but I'm sure some of them are pathological and can pass.
 
Ok, so I may be able to provide some help here.

I feel the same way about it as you, OP. Volunteer work generally ends up being useless. I get so upset when I hear premeds raving about their hospital volunteer work, where they do . . . oh wait, they don't do anything. I personally think that if you really want to help people, there are plenty of other ways to do so that are not a complete waste of time.

I applied this cycle with no volunteer experience at all. I heard the same thing over and over again, that I shouldn't bother applying, and that this was an app killer. While I do think that my lack of volunteering might have held me back a little, I have still received 11 interview invites (out of 22 schools applied to, a mix of top/middle/low tier), and am currently sitting on multiple acceptances and wait lists (also a mix of top/middle/low tier).

So, getting into medical school without any volunteer work is not impossible! This topic did come up frequently in interviews, but as long as you have clearly stayed busy, and can still show a commitment to helping people, you should be fine (provided you have good stats, essays and communication skills). Will you get into as "good" a school without the volunteer work as you would have with it? probably not. Will it prevent you entirely from being a doctor? Also, probably not.
 
Didn't you say in your post that you rode in the ambulance as a volunteer EMT? Couldn't you list that? Sorry; unless I'm missing something obvious!
 
If hospital volunteering is useless, why don't you find a more meaningful way to spend your time? Hospitals probably don't need your help. There are lots of great organizations that do important work but don't have the resources they need.
 
I did absolutely zero clinical volunteering. I shadowed under the direct supervision of an attending. I wasn't there to help people, I was there to learn.

I spent most of my volunteering time working with underprivileged youth. I loved this! You need to do what you love.

There are three points in this discussion.

1.) Shadowing - Required for admission
2.) Volunteering - Required for admission

It doesn't have to be clinical volunteering though.
 
Honestly, this is the secret and a way to avoid Spinach Dip calling you a liar (much love man but I had to crack a joke lol).

Get your 100 hours of shadowing and get out of the hospital and do something. Start a food drive or a clothes drive. Start a non-profit. Do something.

The average pre-med will shadow and then blindly volunteer at a hospital or at a random place without any leadership. Someone who is really motivated will create their own experiences. Create their own volunteer opportunities and take a leadership role. After I got a private doc to shadow I left the hospital. I spent half my time getting PPDs and listening to tapes on HIPPA laws. Waste of my time. I went back to school and started planning a speaker series, working with youth, and being a leader.
 
fmpak93 said:
. I don't think doing clerical work(yes this is what most volunteers end up doing) in a hospital shows any correlation to a passion for helping patients and treating them.
Click to expand...

How do you know that this is what most volunteers end up doing? Did you check out all available volunteer positions? I never had to do clerical work and got to interact with patients and their families each week. So did several, several other volunteers that I know. I say this because if an adcom asks you why you didn't do any clinical volunteering and you say it's because almost all the jobs are clerical... Well they may call you out.

And once you step outside of the clinical setting, the volunteering opportunities and chances to actually help people are basically endless. How about tutoring economically disadvantaged children to help them keep up in school? What about an after school program for troubled teens? What about setting up fundraisers for different charity organizations? Or preparing and delivering meals to people who can't prepare or buy them themselves? Or helping to clean and/or fix up broken down parts of a city to make it look a little nicer and brighten up the day of it's residents, even if it's just a tiny little bit and they never learn who you are?

I think that saying that you choose medicine because you care about and love people, without having much volunteer experience, will make the admissions process quite difficult for you. Not impossible, and I'm sure there are many strong applicants who get in with minimal volunteering, but I think it will make it more difficult for you. Who will they pick when one applicant has a lot more volunteering than the other, with otherwise similar (but obviously not identical) apps? Who will they believe slightly more when they say they care about people and want to help them? It's about demonstrating that you mean what you say, even if it's considered 'cookie cutter' and provides no real boost to your app, I believe it's still an important component of a strong application.

My advice is to start some type of volunteering, even if it's just a little bit. Pick something that you genuinely find interesting and that you can play an active role in. If you look carefully, you will see that there are many true opportunities to help people. Good luck.
 
There's a big difference between people who truly want to be doctors, and do what's necessary, and those who do what's merely convenient. One of the things we really need to see is evidence that you want to be around sick people and their families for the next 34-40 years. Those who do not display dedication and altruism are the ones left wondering "why didn't I get accepted with my great numbers?"

Being a doctor is a privilege, not a right. You want to be doctor? Earn it.


fmpak93 said:
Yeah yeah, go ahead and tell me I'm beating a dead horse or some other wise*** cliche bs, I could never bring myself to do it during college(applying this summer btw) because the idea of it felt so...mild and bleh, like it doesn't show anything except that I kinda know how things run in a hospital(not to mention most of the work given to people is mostly just clerical busy work)...but is that even a sufficient basis to judge an applicant? I've done biomechanic research, I've rode the ambulance as a volunteer EMT sort of thing, shadowed, clubs and what not, it is just this silly common premed requirement I can't even bring myself to do it and the fact that - my opinion here - the admission office even BELIEVES or judges this is how pre-med can attain any sort of true understanding of working in the medical field or it shows "true exposure" is silly to me. Sorry if that offends anyone. Is there a way to explain during an interview or on an application why I didn't really bother going through with this holy mother of all extracurricular activities? Or should I just suck it up and just get some hours in to make sure I don't screw myself over here.
Click to expand...
 
As a current medical student who started volunteering again, there's a few important things I've learned about this topic. The first is: volunteering doesn't suck. Indeed it doesn't. It can be fun, rewarding, and simply a great thing to do! But what sucks then? Pre-med volunteering sucks if you genuinely don't want to do something, or worst of all, you end up getting treated poorly because you're a pre-med.

I think one of the biggest issues now is that pre-meds understand that volunteering is a requirement, so you end up having to volunteer even if you don't want to. It entirely defeats the purpose and meaning of volunteering. Pre-meds end up putting on a big dog and pony show for ADCOMs. This facade entirely masks their true selves. This is why you have so many supposed bleeding heart applicants pretending to care about helping the underserved. They promise that they will devote their lives to helping them, and once they get into medical school, they drop the facade. Surprise!

It's kind of sad that the meaning behind something so wonderful has been tainted by pre-meds. They are like King Midas, they ruin everything they touch. Pretty soon, even starting non-profits will look bad.

If you gotta do it though, which most of you do, then hospital volunteering is the way to go. It's like Vegas, minus 99% of the fun. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Same with volunteering, unless there is the very unlikely chance that the ADCOM member personally knows the volunteer coordinator. In other words, assuming each applicant embellishes their experiences, an ADCOM will technically never know the difference between a volunteer who gave it their all during their shifts, and a volunteer who signed in and ditched the entire shift until they came back to sign out. That's the problem when you have no oversight over the process.

Considering how poorly pre-meds are usually treated by staff (and think about the wonderful reputation pre-meds have), it's no surprise that pre-meds will half-ass what they do as volunteers. It's a very flawed process. But if you have to do it, do hospital volunteering. It kills multiple birds with one stone. You get what you want out of it. It can be a great experience. It can be a horrible experience. But it's there to get you into medical school. So whether you're an honorary part of the hospital team, or sit in the corner playing with your phone, it will end up with the same result.
 
As long as the rest of your app is well rounded, you don't need any volunteer work. I have no volunteering and got in
 
Your enthusiasm is palpable...

Look, I get that you don't want to do a bunch of useless busy work with no meaning or deeper purpose other than application padding. Who does? It's hypocritical and soul-sucking.

So don't. Do something you care about instead. Do something where you can make a difference. Help build a house for Habitat for Humanity. Hand out needles to people who would otherwise reuse dirty ones. Volunteer in a nursing home or children's cancer ward. Volunteer in an after-school mentoring program for inner city youth who see no clear path to a bright future. Help people with developmental or intellectual disabilities. Volunteer for Special Olympics. Take your favorite leisure activity and bring it to people who could not participate without help.

There is real joy in helping others, and if you can tap into that joy, you will be a better applicant, a better doctor, and a better person.
 
The cool thing about volunteering is that it's an opportunity not just to help other people but also to expand your personal experiences in ways which a normal job might not allow. There is a huge variety within the large pool of volunteer opportunities out there, and you can participate in essentially anyone you find interesting with a simple application and in some cases an interview. If you honestly cannot shake the "meh" feeling from the concept of volunteering I doubt you truly looked for places which might interest you. What I'm trying to say is don't be so dismissive of the idea; don't just think of it as a way to fill a slot on an application, but rather as a way to expand your horizons a little bit.
 
fmpak93 said:
Hmmm true, 100 hours of experience spread out over a year vs 100 hours spread over a few month doesn't change the fact it was 100 hours of experience, am i wrong? But I could see why it'd seem desperate, looks like I'm just trying to appease admission offices(who isn't lol) But true I guess it's just part of the game. :/
Click to expand...


The point I'm making just goes along with what you've already said. Thing is, you're right. Most of the time when you volunteer, you do trivial tasks and there is nothing out of the ordinary (this is assuming you're doing the "required" volunteering). The reason why admissions committees like to see a lot of volunteer time isn't just because they like the large number, it's because the longer you volunteer, the more likely you are to have a real experience. An experience that goes beyond taking patients to their appointments, or delivering flowers to someone's room. Both of which are definitely helpful as a volunteer, but nothing worthy of making you realize why you chose medicine -- which is what you should strive to see as a volunteer.
 
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I agree with others that you can just find something you enjoy. I needed to burn off some fat so I volunteer at habitat for humanity. Volunteer experience and exercise at the same time. I like driving and listening to music, so I volunteered with ACS to be a patient transporter. It doesn't have to be in a hospital.
 
fmpak93 said:
Yeah yeah, go ahead and tell me I'm beating a dead horse or some other wise*** cliche bs, I could never bring myself to do it during college(applying this summer btw) because the idea of it felt so...mild and bleh, like it doesn't show anything except that I kinda know how things run in a hospital(not to mention most of the work given to people is mostly just clerical busy work)...but is that even a sufficient basis to judge an applicant? I've done biomechanic research, I've rode the ambulance as a volunteer EMT sort of thing, shadowed, clubs and what not, it is just this silly common premed requirement I can't even bring myself to do it and the fact that - my opinion here - the admission office even BELIEVES or judges this is how pre-med can attain any sort of true understanding of working in the medical field or it shows "true exposure" is silly to me. Sorry if that offends anyone. Is there a way to explain during an interview or on an application why I didn't really bother going through with this holy mother of all extracurricular activities? Or should I just suck it up and just get some hours in to make sure I don't screw myself over here.
Click to expand...

???-It looks like you've done a bit...

Also, I see where you're coming from but your lack of enthusiasm for helping others out is a bit unsettling. Volunteering in hospitals can sometimes be a drag but there were moments where I actually learned things about the human condition (as cliche as that sounds). For example, I met a lady who hated the fact that her hair had to be shaved off. My initial impression was Wow, your in hospice, there are more important things to worry about. After getting to know her each week though, I learned how the small things like that do have an effect on the human condition (she thought it affected how her grandchildren perceived her) and how we should do our best to preserve patient preferences as much as possible without bending the quality of care (of course, in this case, there was nothing to be done). Overall...if you TAKE THE INITIATIVE to do things, you will learn some new things. The difference between a short-term job and pre-med volunteering is that with a job you're inundated with duties and you just have to figure how to efficiently satisfy all those duties so you can keep getting paid. With pre-med volunteering, you're often given the least responsibility possible and it's up to you to be opportunistic to learn things. Sure you're kind of getting a gratification by "checking the volunteering box" but I figure that while I was doing that, I might as well try to learn some things and it worked out well!
 
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