Getting better at socratic questioning

[borne_before]

Guys, my doctorate is in school psychology and I mostly do pediatric psychology, testin' for neurodevelopmental disorders, and parent management training/behavioral consultation. I do a little therapy here and there (like maybe four patients/week.

I want to get better at socratic questioning. I'm wondering if you had any mental tricks, acronyms, worksheets, books, trainings, etc., that have helped you do it effectively with patient.

I've been licensed nearly six years and don't have it all figured out.

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[R. Matey]

Resources from Cognitive Behavior Therapy: Basics and Beyond, 3rd Edition

Cognitive Behavior Therapy: Basics and Beyond, 3rd Edition is an essential text for graduate students and professionals in clinical psychology, […]

beckinstitute.org

 

[cara susanna]

In addition to this document, I recommend adopting a stance of curiosity. You are not trying to lead the patient anywhere (even if you are, lol), you are merely trying to learn about something you don't know about. Think Columbo.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If you can get yourself involved in training/supervision, that can also be a great place to practice Socratic questioning.

 

[Sanman]

Why do feel like you should have it all figured out because you are licensed?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[psych.meout]

Why do feel like you should have it all figured out because you are licensed?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

What do you mean when you say that you "don't have it all figured out?"

 

[WisNeuro]

F'in amatuers, get your **** figured out

 

[psych.meout]

F'in amatuers, get your **** figured out

What is your understanding of what an "amateur" is?

 

[cara susanna]

Clarifying question!

 

[psych.meout]

Clarifying question!

What are some other ways of looking at this?

 

[ClinicalABA]

So you're saying you'd like to get better at Socratic questioning. Why do you say that?

You assume it will may you a better therapist. How can you verify or disprove that assumption?

 

[psych.meout]

So you're saying you'd like to get better at Socratic questioning. Why do you say that?

You assume it will may you a better therapist. How can you verify or disprove that assumption?

Can you give us an example of how you could verify or disprove assumptions?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Guys, my doctorate is in school psychology and I mostly do pediatric psychology, testin' for neurodevelopmental disorders, and parent management training/behavioral consultation.

You present this almost as a pejoritative. I read it as "I have some good, high level, training and do some really important, complicated work with that clients will wait months to years to access." Don't use a description of what you (and I!) do in this manner. Put any of the fancy adult client PhDs on this board in a therapy room with a non-verbal toddler who has learned that screaming is the most effective means of communication and see how long they last! You insult me with this nonsense!

It also assumes that clinicians with other types of training (eg clinical psych) and experiences (adults; mood disorders/anxiety) have better training in and abilities with socratic questioning, which is not necessarily accurate.

That said, I've been trying to imagine using socratic questioning with my clients- "so you're assuming that you'd much rather play with the red dinosaur than the green one. Can you think about why that assumption may be faulty?" (then duck to avoid being hit in face by the green dinosaur.

I do a little therapy here and there (like maybe four patients/week.

That's four more than me and seems likevfour to many. I'd find that tortuous- I much prefer identifying the problem and leaving the hard work of fixing it to others. Yet I'm still pretty decent with socratic questioning.

I want to get better at socratic questioning. I'm wondering if you had any mental tricks, acronyms, worksheets, books, trainings, etc., that have helped you do it effectively with patient.

I'd start with the source and read the original (well technically Plato, but Socrates is a prominent character). Phaedra, The Symposium, etc. See how socratic questioning is not just a trick or technique for getting someone else to state out loud something that you already know, but rather a philosophical approach to uncovering truths that may be newly discovered by all involved parties. Then you can look at the simpler stuff about how and why to use the methods in therapy. I actually made the ridiculous decision to take Ancient Greek in undergrad. They throw you right into translating Plato in you second semester. It's truck me that some of the first words you learn (literally in the first weeks of class) are mnv..de.. which loosely translates to "on the one hand...but on the other") it's an ingrained way of approaching and viewing the world.

I've been licensed nearly six years and don't have it all figured out.

Never assume that licensure means more than meeting minimal standards of traing and passing a few tests. Always- until proven otherwise- assume that further one is from licensure the further they are from their formal training, and likely forgotten a lot and developed some bad habits.

 

[cara susanna]

For what it's worth, I've been trained in CPT since 2014, am now a CPT trainer, and feel like only recently did I actually become GOOD at Socratic questioning (for those who don't know, Socratic questioning is a huge part of CPT)

 

[WisNeuro]

For what it's worth, I've been trained in CPT since 2014, am now a CPT trainer, and feel like only now am I actually GOOD at Socratic questioning (for those who don't know, Socratic questioning is a huge part of CPT)

Contrast this with some providers who feel competent to deliver a fairly nuanced treatment after a 3-hour workshop and zero supervision.

 

[borne_before]

You present this almost as a pejoritative. I read it as "I have some good, high level, training and do some really important, complicated work with that clients will wait months to years to access." Don't use a description of what you (and I!) do in this manner. Put any of the fancy adult client PhDs on this board in a therapy room with a non-verbal toddler who has learned that screaming is the most effective means of communication and see how long they last! You insult me with this nonsense!

It also assumes that clinicians with other types of training (eg clinical psych) and experiences (adults; mood disorders/anxiety) have better training in and abilities with socratic questioning, which is not necessarily accurate.

That said, I've been trying to imagine using socratic questioning with my clients- "so you're assuming that you'd much rather play with the red dinosaur than the green one. Can you think about why that assumption may be faulty?" (then duck to avoid being hit in face by the green dinosaur.

That's four more than me and seems likevfour to many. I'd find that tortuous- I much prefer identifying the problem and leaving the hard work of fixing it to others. Yet I'm still pretty decent with socratic questioning.

I'd start with the source and read the original (well technically Plato, but Socrates is a prominent character). Phaedra, The Symposium, etc. See how socratic questioning is not just a trick or technique for getting someone else to state out loud something that you already know, but rather a philosophical approach to uncovering truths that may be newly discovered by all involved parties. Then you can look at the simpler stuff about how and why to use the methods in therapy. I actually made the ridiculous decision to take Ancient Greek in undergrad. They throw you right into translating Plato in you second semester. It's truck me that some of the first words you learn (literally in the first weeks of class) are mnv..de.. which loosely translates to "on the one hand...but on the other") it's an ingrained way of approaching and viewing the world.

Never assume that licensure means more than meeting minimal standards of traing and passing a few tests. Always- until proven otherwise- assume that further one is from licensure the further they are from their formal training, and likely forgotten a lot and developed some bad habits.

Thanks man!

I probably should have used the /s for some of my sarcasm (especially the part about having it all figured out). Nothing drives me more crazy than the mental health guru who has it all figured out.

I joke about school psychology, but it really is a specialization in treatment/assessment in neurodevelopmental disorders. I joke that the PhD in school psychology is a really an emphasis in the neurodevelopmental disorders with some extra training in the laws/politics of education and community educational systems.

But, I'm just kind of always looking to improve and wanted to hone those intervention skills. Plus, I'd like to be more flexible thinker as well.

 

[R. Matey]

For what it's worth, I've been trained in CPT since 2014, am now a CPT trainer, and feel like only recently did I actually become GOOD at Socratic questioning (for those who don't know, Socratic questioning is a huge part of CPT)

Also for effective cognitive therapy for depression. The stance is critical for success.

 

[R. Matey]

But, I'm just kind of always looking to improve and wanted to hone those intervention skills. Plus, I'd like to be more flexible thinker as well.

Not for intervention skills, but I just started the Socratic Method by Ward Farnsworth, which outlines the historical approach in the dialogues. It's a really good read so far.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Thanks man!

I probably should have used the /s for some of my sarcasm (especially the part about having it all figured out). Nothing drives me more crazy than the mental health guru who has it all figured out.

I joke about school psychology, but it really is a specialization in treatment/assessment in neurodevelopmental disorders. I joke that the PhD in school psychology is a really an emphasis in the neurodevelopmental disorders with some extra training in the laws/politics of education and community educational systems.

But, I'm just kind of always looking to improve and wanted to hone those intervention skills. Plus, I'd like to be more flexible thinker as well.

I really appreciate the attitude of wanting to continue to improve and expand your skill set. One way I continue to do that is by supervising new therapists. I also have a postdoc coming on board in the fall that has a lot of newer information and I can’t wait to integrate some of his knowledge. What is funny is that when I was talking to him about newer stuff, I recognized some of it as things that I had learned earlier from other sources. As far as Socratic questioning, not exactly my emphasis, I am always trying to improve my ability to connect empathically and communicate that with patients because that is what doesn’t come naturally to me. Logical analysis and psychoeducation is easy for me but being nice to people when they are being irrational is harder for me.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I really appreciate the attitude of wanting to continue to improve and expand your skill set. One way I continue to do that is by supervising new therapists.

This. It's especially useful if you can get some well-trained, inquisitive types. Teaching helps too.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm attending a seminar on Socratic questioning right now and they said other good pop culture examples are the owl in Legend of Zelda and the main character of the TV show Poker Face (who is, to be fair, basically a modern Columbo)

 

[cara susanna]

Also, they gave these suggestions for additional resources:

Avoiding the Hemlock: Socratic Dialogue III. (n.d.). In the Room. Retrieved March 19, 2024, from https://gandalwaven.typepad.com/intheroom/2006/12/avoiding_the_he.html

Braun, J. D., Strunk, D. R., Sasso, K. E., & Cooper, A. A. (2015). Therapist Use of Socratic Questioning Predicts Session-to-Session Symptom Change in Cognitive Therapy for Depression. Behaviour Research and Therapy, 70, 32–37. Redirecting

Carey, T. A., & Mullan, R. J. (2004). What is Socratic questioning? Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 41(3), 217–226. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. (1994). Elements of the Socratic method: III. Universal definitions. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 31, 286–293. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. C. (1993a). Elements of the Socratic method: I. Systematic questioning. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 30(1), 67–74. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. C. (1993b). Elements of the Socratic method: II. Inductive reasoning. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 30(1), 75–85. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. C. (1995). Elements of the Socratic method: IV. Disavowal of knowledge. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 32(2), 283–292. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. C. (1996). Elements of the Socratic method: V. Self-improvement. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 33(4), 549–559. APA PsycNet

Overholser, J. C., & Beale, E. (2023). The art and science behind Socratic questioning and guided discovery: A research review. Psychotherapy Research, 33(7), 946–956. https://doi.org/10.1080/10503307.2023.2183154

Padesky, C. A. (1993). Socratic Questioning: Changing Minds or Guiding Discovery?

(PDF) Elements of the Socratic method: VI. Promoting virtue in everyday life | James Overholser—Academia.edu. (n.d.). Retrieved March 19, 2024, from Elements of the Socratic method: VI. Promoting virtue in everyday life

Ph.D, J. S. (2020, June 19). Socratic Questioning in Psychology: Examples and Techniques. PositivePsychology.Com. Socratic Questioning in Psychology: Examples and Techniques

Rutter, J. G., & Friedberg, R. D. (1999). Guidelines for the effective use of Socratic dialogue in cognitive therapy. In Innovations in clinical practice: A source book, Vol. 17 (pp. 481–490). Professional Resource Press/Professional Resource Exchange.
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