Getting in without any clinical experience

[Chemdude]

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Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

 

[txprodigal]

Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

How do you really persuade someone that medicine is what you want to do with the rest of your life without any clinical experience? If you can somehow do that, I think you're fine, but I personally don't believe it's possible.

 

[Nevadanteater]

MD/PhD

or regular MD with hard hard hardcore research.

Either way will be a bit tough though...

 

[MilkmanAl]

I'd imagine that'd only fly if you have a whole crapload of research experience and some impressive publications to go with it and are applying MD/PhD. If you're volunteering in a clinical setting and have put in quite a bit of time doing so, you can probably get away with just that and some shadowing to show that you have some idea of what a doctor does.

 

[Chemdude]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

 

[MilkmanAl]

You can, but you're going to need some kind of clinical experience in addition to that. If you have to greet patients to get that "clinical" time, then greet patients. Play the game.

 

[DrYoda]

How do you really persuade someone that medicine is what you want to do with the rest of your life without any clinical experience?

Donate a building.😉

 

[MonsterAddict]

My friend didnt have any trouble. Maybe shadowed a doctor for a couple days. Shes already accepted.

 

[Nobuo]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

doesn't shadowing count as clinical experience? you don't have to volunteer at a hospital or something if you can just follow some doctors around.

 

[URHere]

MD/PhD

or regular MD with hard hard hardcore research.

Even MD/PhD applicants are expected to have some sort of clinical experience. Granted, they can get away with a minimal amount, but it still has to be there. Most of my interviews went something like this:

Interviewer: So, do you have any sort of clinical experience?
MD/PhD Applicant: Yes.
Interviewer: What was it?
MD/PhD Applicant: Working at blah blah blah.
Interviewer: Ok, now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's talk about your research...

Elapsed time - 3-5 minutes max.

Although if you are an MD-only applicant, I would expect this conversation to be much different.

 

[beachblonde]

MD/PhD

or regular MD with hard hard hardcore research.

Either way will be a bit tough though...

I've got pretty "hardcore" research experience, yet I was told last cycle that I didn't have enough clinical experience. In fact, I was told that my research experience was too extensive and that I should have spent more time shadowing or whatnot.

Play the game, OP. Don't be like me and get stuck reapplying because you weren't aware there was a game to played. 🙄

 

[mfrizzo3]

You will need clinical experience. End of story.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me.

Find a way to make your own opportunities. There are a lot of sick people out there in need of all kinds of help.

I'm not sure I understand why you want to be a physician if you haven't smelled some patients.

 

[CCLCMer]

Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

No. My school is really research-intensive, but the adcomm still expects to see you have some kind of significant clinical experience, and preferably service experience too. It's really not hard to get some clinical experience, man. You don't have to go to a hospital. Shadow a doctor, or go volunteer at a nursing home, or train to be a phlebotomist, or become a medical interpreter, or anything else where you'll be around doctors and sick people. If you're not willing to even do that, why would an adcomm pick you over a thousand other applicants who have stats just as good as yours if not better, and killer ECs as well? This attitude you have explains why you see SDN threads every spring by kids with great stats who didn't get in anywhere because they had no clinical experience or other significant ECs. Having clinical experience is necessary just like having high enough grades and MCAT scores is necessary.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Call up any hospital ED department, ask if you can volunteer. The nice thing about the ED is it is so open, so even when you are cleaning beds you'll still get to watch and hear what its like to be a physician. 50 hours is not that hard to come by in four years. Shadow a surgery or two for easy hours.

 

[Textuality]

At the very least you're expected to do some shadowing, if only to show that you have made some attempt to understand what it's like to be a physician. I don't think I can name a single person in my class who hasn't done some sort of clinical work, whether that be shadowing, clinical volunteering, or clinical research..

It's probably possible to get in somewhere if you have a 4.0/40 mcat, publications, and varsity athlete type extracurriculars. But I think you'd be selling yourself short because the lack of clinical experience would still be holding you back, and you probably wouldn't get into as many schools as you could have. I really don't think there are numbers high enough that would make most adcoms blind to lack of clinical experience.

Personally, I never did anything like volunteer in gift shops. I actually approached an assistant professor who worked in the ICU, and asked if she could use a volunteer, and of course the answer was yes, lol. I spent half my time doing stuff like databasing and sorting papers, but the other half was interviewing patients, going to rounds, shadowing the physicians etc. It was definitely a fair trade off, and interesting. So maybe try looking up physicians or other PhDs that are doing clinical research, and see if you can volunteer with them?

 

[Chemist0157]

Clinical experience is not an official pre-req of medical school like Organic is. Of course one could get in without having any experience. BUT, why would you not shadow/volunteer? Forget padding the resume: get some time in to make sure this is what YOU want to do for the rest of your life.

 

[gujuDoc]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

There are so many ways to get clinical experience. you can become an EMT-B, Patient Care Tech, CNA, etc. You can wor in a hospital or a doctor's office. You can volunteer abroad in medical mission trips or you can volunteer in the free clinics. You can volunteer in child life playing with children. You can shadow doctors.

The point is you need exposure to medicine to show you are commited to medicine and the person who goes into medicine with even zero exposure and complains later when and if they get in med school has no right to complain if he/she has not even had the slightest exposure granted that being in med school is different then what you see when you ar exposed as a premed.

 

[deleted212936]

There are so many ways to get clinical experience. you can become an EMT-B, Patient Care Tech, CNA, etc. You can wor in a hospital or a doctor's office. You can volunteer abroad in medical mission trips or you can volunteer in the free clinics. You can volunteer in child life playing with children. You can shadow doctors.

The point is you need exposure to medicine to show you are commited to medicine and the person who goes into medicine with even zero exposure and complains later when and if they get in med school has no right to complain if he/she has not even had the slightest exposure granted that being in med school is different then what you see when you ar exposed as a premed.

Regarding your post, I have something to ask :

1/ is shadowing considered CLINICAL experience, even if you just stand and watch ?

2/ all those positions (EMT-B, Patient Care Tech, CNA) require certifications, taking classes, and training. I applied for a patient care tech job once, they called me in for an interview, but I wasn't hired because they need FULL-TIME employee who can work LONG TERM (not just in the summer)

 

[Tiare208]

Regarding your post, I have something to ask :

1/ is shadowing considered CLINICAL experience, even if you just stand and watch ?

2/ all those positions (EMT-B, Patient Care Tech, CNA) require certifications, taking classes, and training. I applied for a patient care tech job once, they called me in for an interview, but I wasn't hired because they need FULL-TIME employee who can work LONG TERM (not just in the summer)

Yes, shadowing is considered clinical experience because it gives you insight into what you would like or dislike about practicing medicine. You need to be able to field questions like "what experience do you have that makes you think this is right for you." Shadowing will give you stories to tell.

 

[Timberwolf]

I will also vouch for the need for clinical experience. 37/3.75 + everything else non-clinical= reapplicant.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Why would I hire your as a swimmer when you have never been in a pool?


Just jump in the pool at least once and swim a few laps... if you loved it, thats convincing enough...


Seriously, you need to AT LEAST shadow a few hours a few different times.....otherwise, how is someone convinced you want to be a mechanic when you never looked under the hood of a car?????

 

[What up doc]

Clinical experience is not an official pre-req of medical school like Organic is. Of course one could get in without having any experience. BUT, why would you not shadow/volunteer? Forget padding the resume: get some time in to make sure this is what YOU want to do for the rest of your life.[/quote]

lol, this is soooo not true. 3rd yr rotations arent even really enuff 2 kno exactly wat u want 2 do, so how does getting in the way of an unresponsive, elitist, overworked attending or chief resident in an ER teach u about medicine? yet ER volunteering is probably the most common clinical experience for most applicants (and subsequent re-applicants, lol) face it, clinical experience is just a hoop u gotta jump thru. i would really really like 2 see the app that gets in without it. theyd have 2 be sum1 who got in bcuz of connections (mother on admissions board, child of a prominent politician). otherwise fat chance. hell, its a fat chance with just standard clinical experience. most ppl are spending time abroad in 3rd world countrys performing caeserean sections with machettes

 

[Jolie South]

lol, this is soooo not true. 3rd yr rotations arent even really enuff 2 kno exactly wat u want 2 do, so how does getting in the way of an unresponsive, elitist, overworked attending or chief resident in an ER teach u about medicine? yet ER volunteering is probably the most common clinical experience for most applicants (and subsequent re-applicants, lol) face it, clinical experience is just a hoop u gotta jump thru. i would really really like 2 see the app that gets in without it. theyd have 2 be sum1 who got in bcuz of connections (mother on admissions board, child of a prominent politician). otherwise fat chance. hell, its a fat chance with just standard clinical experience. most ppl are spending time abroad in 3rd world countrys performing caeserean sections with machettes

umm no, that's exactly what they are there for.

if you don't volunteer/shadow, how exactly do you propose that applicants decide if medicine is right for them? what exactly is so "wrong" with the experience that people get in the ER or through shadowing? what is so different about "real world" medicine?

the point isn't to teach you medicine. it's to teach you whether or not you want to learn medicine. you can't have an understanding of clinical practice from watching tv or imagination or listening to other people talk about it.

 

[GoSpursGo]

There are definitely opportunities out there for clinical experience other than greeting patients/etc. I have clinical experience, and not one minute of it came inside a hospital. If you look hard enough, I bet you could find a volunteer homeless clinic in your community that could use you- that's what I did.

Also, realize what you are- a generic premed. You might be some bad-ass guy with much above average medical knowledge for your age- hey, ya never know, you might be the rare guy with those abilities- but the hospital looking for volunteers has no way of knowing that, so of course they're not going to give you anything beyond minimal responsibilities. Accordingly, be happy for what you can get; if greeting patients/helping in the gift store holds absolutely no appeal for you, then look at it like O Chem- something that will absolutely not prepare you for med school, but you still need to get anyways.

 

[gujuDoc]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

You can't get a job at a hospital or doctor's office, do some shadowing, heck get some money and go to a poor area of this country or out of the country and do medical volunteering???

You can't do childlife volunteering doing arts and crafts with kids or teaching kids in hospital wards?

You can't get an EMT-B and do that kinda stuff or a CNA license and get a job as a CNA?

No shadowing opps where you are???

 

[gujuDoc]

umm no, that's exactly what they are there for.

if you don't volunteer/shadow, how exactly do you propose that applicants decide if medicine is right for them? what exactly is so "wrong" with the experience that people get in the ER or through shadowing? what is so different about "real world" medicine?

the point isn't to teach you medicine. it's to teach you whether or not you want to learn medicine. you can't have an understanding of clinical practice from watching tv or imagination or listening to other people talk about it.

Agreed. Also I think that even though its not the same as doing it, some exposure is needed. You need to know you can stand being around patients when they are sick and not always nice to you because they are distressed or because some patients just have strong personalities and you need to know you can deal with different kinds of people.

LizzyM always says good clinical exp. is when you are close enough you can smell the patient. In other words, you need to know that there will be funny smells sometimes, things that outright suck about medicine at different times, things that suck about patient attitudes. these things only get exposed to you in a clinical setting where you can see it first hand.

tutoring can be incorporated by teaching kids in hospitals if you can do that. Otherwise look into things like childlife volunteering, ER volunteering, etc.

 

[KnuxNole]

umm no, that's exactly what they are there for.

if you don't volunteer/shadow, how exactly do you propose that applicants decide if medicine is right for them? what exactly is so "wrong" with the experience that people get in the ER or through shadowing? what is so different about "real world" medicine?

the point isn't to teach you medicine. it's to teach you whether or not you want to learn medicine. you can't have an understanding of clinical practice from watching tv or imagination or listening to other people talk about it.

Sadly there are quite a few people who believe watching TV is good enough for "clinical experience". They are usually the same people who understand how [insert state or country] life is like just by watching a documentary or TV show.

 

[Tiare208]

Sadly there are quite a few people who believe watching TV is good enough for "clinical experience". They are usually the same people who understand how [insert state or country] life is like just by watching a documentary or TV show.

I hope they didn't watch Borat...

 

[Siverhideo1985]

Committing to 4 years of med school, 250k+ financial burden, without any clinical experience?

r u serious?

 

[Kaustikos]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

Not that I would advocate this, but you could volunteer there and say something to the effect that you did this AND shadowed physicians and did some other things that are more "related" to clinical experience.*








*Kaustikos does not endorse nor publicly admit that telling a white lie is in any way something he would do under any circumstances as it might void any chance of ever getting into medical school. Realize that by doing this, you're doing this on your own and publicly stating that you chose to do this because you knew how to play the game smart.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Regarding your post, I have something to ask :

1/ is shadowing considered CLINICAL experience, even if you just stand and watch ?

2/ all those positions (EMT-B, Patient Care Tech, CNA) require certifications, taking classes, and training. I applied for a patient care tech job once, they called me in for an interview, but I wasn't hired because they need FULL-TIME employee who can work LONG TERM (not just in the summer)

Then try again. Find a more lax hospital. Find a different kind of clinical opportunity like clinical research or health advocacy. Some people move to new cities or new states to find the ideal gap year or summer internship opportunity. These are the people you are up against.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Agreed. Also I think that even though its not the same as doing it, some exposure is needed. You need to know you can stand being around patients when they are sick and not always nice to you because they are distressed or because some patients just have strong personalities and you need to know you can deal with different kinds of people.

LizzyM always says good clinical exp. is when you are close enough you can smell the patient. In other words, you need to know that there will be funny smells sometimes, things that outright suck about medicine at different times, things that suck about patient attitudes. these things only get exposed to you in a clinical setting where you can see it first hand.

tutoring can be incorporated by teaching kids in hospitals if you can do that. Otherwise look into things like childlife volunteering, ER volunteering, etc.

I <3 drug seekers that storm out of the ER while yelling that the hospital will hear from their lawyer.

 

[officedepot]

Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

I volunteered 50 hours in an emergency room in a children's hospital. I didn't do anything clinical but did see what is was like. Also, I only shadowed 2 doctors 1 day each and I got in. My clinical experience was pretty minimal but you really need to do something. Tutoring is not enough. How can you justify that you want a career in medicine?

 

[Hopkins2012]

Hey Chemdude,

the question is not if you're competitive enough, but rather whether or not you know what you're getting yourself into. My advise, get to know the reality of medicine before you invest a quarter million dollars into a career you might end up not liking.

Good luck mate

Eike

 

[gujuDoc]

I <3 drug seekers that storm out of the ER while yelling that the hospital will hear from their lawyer.

Yah or patients that get pissed that their doctor cancelled them as a patient but then never wanted to keep appts. Or patients that don't want to follow the docs orders and then wonder why they are not getting better.

 

[deleted212936]

Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

According to MSAR: only 86% of Harvard's accepted applicants have had clinical experience.
Am I mistaken?

 

[bunnity]

OP, take a look at the successful applicants thread over on the pre-vet forum. Most of the applicants have over 1000 hours of clinical / animal experience. Most vet schools won't even look at you unless you have at least 500. So be glad you're pre-med if you're that opposed to clinical experience, and then suck it up and do 50 hours somewhere. Otherwise what if you get halfway through med school and realize that you can't deal with patients / people / being exposed to sickness every day / blood / crazies? Wouldn't it be better to find out now?

 

[MedStudentWanna]

According to MSAR: only 86% of Harvard's accepted applicants have had clinical experience.
Am I mistaken?

Aren't those stats for people who are also doing MD/PhD though? I'd expect people who aren't going into clinical medicine to have a variety of research experience instead. The ones who are right on track for only MD, probably have a lot of clinical experience.

 

[Lukkie]

According to MSAR: only 86% of Harvard's accepted applicants have had clinical experience.
Am I mistaken?

harvard doesn't count making beds in the ER as clinical experience. Mainly unassisted open heart surgeries, tumor resections and the like were what they counted.

 

[scarletgirl777]

According to MSAR: only 86% of Harvard's accepted applicants have had clinical experience.
Am I mistaken?

You should look at MSAR's EC statistics as a very rough guide. If someone directed a premed shadowing program or started a screening program in a homeless clinic or ran an international spring break to help give little Honduran children their vaccinations, they are probably not going to check the "clinical experience" box for those activities. They are going to check "leadership." Similarly, if the person helped run a health education program, they might check "teaching." That doesn't mean the school won't count it as clinical experience of course, but all AMCAS/MSAR does is sort the activities by the box you checked, and you can only check one box per activity.

 

[BoneMachine]

Can you qualify as a good candidate without clinical experience? Can volunteering be used as a "substitute" for clinical experience? Is a high GPA+ killer MCAT score useless without clinical experience?

Volunteering can be your clinical experience, if you volunteer in some kind of clinical setting such as a hospital or clinic. If this wasn't what you meant, then in short: no. I imagine that it's very, very difficult to be accepted if you do not have any clinical experience whatsoever. I recall hearing somewhere that the question "Do you have any clinical experience?" has evolved into "Tell me about your clinical experience."

 

[slowbutsteady]

In the general population, MOST people hate being around sick people. It creeps them out.

How will they know you aren't one of those people if you haven't done it?

 

[sunset823]

I think clinical experience is a little overblown on SDN, but you do need to show you know what a doctor does - My only clinical experience is candy-striping and shadowing in high school, and some occasional trips to the hospital in my current (very non-clinical) job at a med school, and I've gotten in - but definitely gave me less interviews than I would have liked - you'll probably get interviews with strong stats, but to be really competitive, as others have said, you have to play their game

 

[Daran]

Do you guys think that working as a hospital transporter will count as good clinical experience? I see a ton of ****, from drawing blood to aneurysm coiling.

 

[Nikki2002]

Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't want to spend my time volunteering at the hospital gift shop or greeting visitors. These are the only types of volunteering opportunities available to me. So I was just wondering if I could do something that I actually liked(tutor kids in poorer areas of the city, etc.).

can't you shadow a doctor? are you sure those are the ONLY volunteering opportunities available at the hospital? Have you actually went in and spoke with the volunteer director, stressing that you need to find something clinically related? What about volunteering in the ER?

And you know what? if you have to take that gig in the gift shop then do it. I had a friend who was getting accepted all over the place--even to canadian schools--and that's what she did for volunteering.

 

[Anotherface]

I'd imagine that'd only fly if you have a whole crapload of research experience and some impressive publications to go with it and are applying MD/PhD. If you're volunteering in a clinical setting and have put in quite a bit of time doing so, you can probably get away with just that and some shadowing to show that you have some idea of what a doctor does.

I got into MD with little clinical experience. However, I did do a lot of research and volunteered some.

 

[obgyny]

i know a lot of premeds have a LOT of volunteering under their belt. Almost everyone I know at my college has volunteered at the same nearby hospital for 1-2+ years, but most of them hated the program.

I kind of have some clinical experience. I volunteered for a year in HS at a hospital (I know they won't consider this since it was in HS). My senior year of HS, I was also dual-enrolled in community college (full time, 12 units). And I volunteered for 3 months (50 hours) at a different hospital and LOVED it... got to see a lot of different patients. Unfortunately I had to move to another state, which is why I only volunteered for 3 months. Will they at all consider this experience (I was both a HS student and college student)?

Then I transferred to a university. I really wanted to get into research while I was here, so I got heavily involved in research (15 hours/wk) and I've been working 15hrs/week during my senior year, so I haven't had too much time to volunteer. But for the last two years, I've been on the board of a health club. We do a lot of events in underprivileged communities, such as visiting preschools to play and educate the kids about medical equipment so they won't be so afraid of the doctor; doing presentations about HIV/AIDS at high schools; volunteer at health fairs (so far I've been to 2) where we assist doctors and other health professionals. I got to take patient's medical histories and vital signs and spoke to a few doctors. Will any of this count towards clinical experience?

I started volunteering at a medical clinic that provides free healthcare to the non-insured last month. It's a lot of pulling charts/filing, but I also get to help feed the homeless, so not too much direct patient contact so far...

But the 3 months I spent volunteering at that hospital and the events I participate in with my club have been very meaningful to me and have only made me want to become a doctor even more. My question is, how much to med schools value quantity of clinical experience? Like I mentioned before, I've known people who have volunteered 2+ years at a hospital and hated every moment of it.

 

[pianola]

I have a friend who got into several Ivy League institutions with one clinical experience listed (33/3.9). I had about 3 listed clinical "experiences" on my app.

I don't think that having a limited clinical experience will kill you but I do think that having absolutely 0 clinical experience will probably hurt your app.

 

[pianola]

I have a friend who got into several Ivy League institutions with one clinical experience listed (33/3.9). I had about 3 listed clinical "experiences" on my app.

I don't think that having a limited clinical experience will kill you but I do think that having absolutely 0 clinical experience will probably hurt your app.

Not to mention it will make interviews very awkward since they love asking you about your clinical experiences.