Getting into a competitive medical field is easier by going the DO route

[want2beadoc1]

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Here's what I've heard: When comparing an MD applying to a competitive ACGME residency and a DO applying to a competitive AOA residency, it is actually easier for the DO to get his or her residency of choice. The reasons are that about half the DOs go into primary (hence there is less competition between them to get into a competitive residency) and AOA residencies are exclusive only to DOs. Also as a DO you can apply to ACGME programs, although the more competitive ones are usually bias against DO and IMG.

Here's what I've found out: About 1/5 of all medical school grads in the US are DOs and if you look at all the competitive residency programs (ortho, neurosurg, ENT, ophthalmology) about a little less than 1/5 of them are AOA.

Therefore if your dream is to become a doctor with a competitive specialty, you have a better chance to make it by going to an osteopathic medical school instead of an MD school where students are a lot more competitive and want the best specialty?

What do you guys think?

 

[Handy388]

your logic is faulty, capt.kirk.

just because more DO students go into primary care doesn't mean you'll be excused from primary care.

 

[want2beadoc1]

The reason why more DOs go into primary care is because they chose to do so. It is some their reason for going to a DO school instead of MD; because they put more emphasis into PM

 

[JaggerPlate]

The reality of the situation .... 80% of med students, MD and DO aren't competitive enough or want to go into the ROAD fields by the time medical school ends. It doesn't matter if you're a DO gunning for AOA derm with lack luster scores, or an MD gunning for ACGME derm with a 220 step I ... the result will be the same, you're not getting derm. People take the MD vs DO situation way too seriously when residency comes into play. Competitive specialities are extremely hard to get into either way and if you really want it ... go the the medical school that is best for you, work hard, get good grades, board scores, LORs, etc, and apply.

Also, the argument that it's easier as a DO ... I don't buy it for several reasons. 1. I've never seen data comparing, for example, the number of people gunning for an AOA derm spot vs the number of spots compared to ACGME side of things for MDs. I'm not sure a lot of DOs entering primary care does anything to affect you applying for derm, and I bet, with the data normalized, the number of people wanting derm for DO vs the number of AOA spots is roughly equally to the MD side. That said, if there are more ACGME spots compared to the ratio of MD applicants (of vice versa for DOs) then the argument might hold up. Also, you can scratch the DOs applying to ACGME super competitive specalities from your argument. I know there are the amazing few people every year to match something crazy, but the bottom line is that 99% of ACGME integrated plastics, derm, and ENT go to MD applicants. Could be old school discrimination, could be sheer numbers, who knows ... but it's true.

bottom line ... go to school, do your best, don't limit yourself before you start, and keep in mind that you may not even have the stats for these fields at the end of the day. Or you could ... it's really up to you. It's also very possible that you could have the perfect stats, but fall in love with something non-competitive, like a PC field.

 

[DH78]

Dunno. The 2009 match list for WVSOM had I think 5 matches to ortho, including a military match. I keep hearing about this so-called "DO discrimination", and how DO's can't get into competitive specialties, but when I look at match lists and hospital websites, I see the opposite. I think Jagger said it well...study hard, don't limit yourself, make yourself competitive, and you can get what you want.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Dunno. The 2009 match list for WVSOM had I think 5 matches to ortho, including a military match. I keep hearing about this so-called "DO discrimination", and how DO's can't get into competitive specialties, but when I look at match lists and hospital websites, I see the opposite. I think Jagger said it well...study hard, don't limit yourself, make yourself competitive, and you can get what you want.

Reading too much into school match lists is SDN's national pastime. Don't get me wrong, I've played the sport too. I just wouldn't make too many conclusions about competitiveness/schools/years by looking at the match list.

To the OP, I can see the argument about why it may be a little easier to get into some specialties as a DO. But who know what the future holds for each student? A decision to pick a school based on a specialty interest as a pre-med is fraught with danger. Half of my class wanted to do Ortho... and most picked something else before Christmas break of 1st year. Things change. Better to pick a school based on getting a good, well rounded education at a reasonable cost, and then make the best of it. It all works out in the end.

 

[want2beadoc1]

The reality of the situation .... 80% of med students, MD and DO aren't competitive enough or want to go into the ROAD fields by the time medical school ends. It doesn't matter if you're a DO gunning for AOA derm with lack luster scores, or an MD gunning for ACGME derm with a 220 step I ... the result will be the same, you're not getting derm. People take the MD vs DO situation way too seriously when residency comes into play. Competitive specialities are extremely hard to get into either way and if you really want it ... go the the medical school that is best for you, work hard, get good grades, board scores, LORs, etc, and apply.

Also, the argument that it's easier as a DO ... I don't buy it for several reasons. 1. I've never seen data comparing, for example, the number of people gunning for an AOA derm spot vs the number of spots compared to ACGME side of things for MDs. I'm not sure a lot of DOs entering primary care does anything to affect you applying for derm, and I bet, with the data normalized, the number of people wanting derm for DO vs the number of AOA spots is roughly equally to the MD side. That said, if there are more ACGME spots compared to the ratio of MD applicants (of vice versa for DOs) then the argument might hold up. Also, you can scratch the DOs applying to ACGME super competitive specalities from your argument. I know there are the amazing few people every year to match something crazy, but the bottom line is that 99% of ACGME integrated plastics, derm, and ENT go to MD applicants. Could be old school discrimination, could be sheer numbers, who knows ... but it's true.

bottom line ... go to school, do your best, don't limit yourself before you start, and keep in mind that you may not even have the stats for these fields at the end of the day. Or you could ... it's really up to you. It's also very possible that you could have the perfect stats, but fall in love with something non-competitive, like a PC field.

Thanks for your reply. But my point is that it's easier to stand out in the DO world where there are less competitive students (who initially have lower MCAT/GPA and are more into primary care), than the MD world where there are a lot more students gunning for the top. Seems that going DO will give you more "bang for your buck". I'm not saying it's a fact but it makes sense.

 

[phospho]

Thanks for your reply. But my point is that it’s easier to stand out in the DO world where there are less competitive students (who initially have lower MCAT/GPA and are more into primary care), than the MD world where there are a lot more students gunning for the top. Seems that going DO will give you more “bang for your buck”. I’m not saying it’s a fact but it makes sense.

You remind me of something I was thinking about a few months ago when I was choosing which MD school to attend. I was choosing between Wright State and Ohio State. I'm a very average applicant (3.4/30), so I thought that if I attended Wright State, there would be more average applicants like myself whom I can compete with better - unlike the superstars at Ohio State. For example, it would be easier for me to be at the top of my class at Wright State, rather than say at Ohio State, who's filled with people who scored over 35 on their MCAT.

I ended up withdrawing from Ohio State and I'm now committed to WSU (for different reasons, mostly financial). But I see your point. I'm not sure if it's right or wrong, but I do see your point.

 

[danzman]

Thanks for your reply. But my point is that it’s easier to stand out in the DO world where there are less competitive students (who initially have lower MCAT/GPA and are more into primary care), than the MD world where there are a lot more students gunning for the top. Seems that going DO will give you more “bang for your buck”. I’m not saying it’s a fact but it makes sense.

Nope.

This is a common misconception, that everyone at a DO school had a 2.8 GPA and made a 20 on the MCAT, but was able to finagle a spot because they were “into rural primary care” or some other nonsense. I’ll let you in on a few little secrets. Even if you can argue that the average DO student has a lower GPA/MCAT (which is very possible, and probable) you are talking about such a small percentage that it is meaningless. If you throw out the top 10% of applicants, the ones with 43’a and 4.0’s who would never even apply to a DO school anyway, the averages would be almost identical. The numbers I have seen thrown around for most MD programs is around a 3.6 and a 30, the numbers for most DO programs are around 3.4 and 28. The difference is meaningless outside of the top 5-10 % of applicants.

But here is the kicker….
The people that are truly into primary care medicine are into it for their own personal reasons and they are few and far between. No matter if they were at the top or the bottom of their class, they would still go into FM or peds. The overwhelming majority of students at my school see themselves curing cancer, saving babies born without hearts, and driving a Ferrari all before they turn 30. They are all bat sh** crazy gunners, ALL of them. Everyone works hard, everyone tries to one-up each other, and everyone wants to be a damn dermatologist or a neurosurgeon. And as for the old “we have our own residency spots” argument, again, everyone wants those spots too. You are talking about such a small impact on the possibility of you matching into those spots that it is nonsense.

When you get to medical school you will see that there are people who will do better than you for whatever reason. There will also be people that do worse than you. The best thing you can do is to try and work as hard as you can, not piss off the people you work with (amazingly hard for some people to do), and find something you enjoy. I honestly will never understand how anyone could ever want to do Ortho, but that’s me… Your effort and abilities are what is important.

I have posted about the ego of the medical student and how astonishing it is. My favorite story was about a girl who told me on the first day of class that she wanted to become triple board certified in OBGyn, Peds, and Neurosurgery so she could open up a free clinic in Africa and save babies born with defects. She just kept waiting for me to do what every other person had ever done when she told them this, that she was so great, and driven, and what a great and noble human she was. Instead I told her that I wanted to open up chains of abortion clinics on every street corner in every major city in the country to slaughter the unwanted crap that poor people keep having because they are too stupid to wear a condom. She looked at me like I was the devil himself. Best day ever. She failed a handful of classes and now takes enough Adderal to kill a small horse.

Everyone wants those spots.

 

[Es Pontas]

This is pretty off topic (saw it posted by Jagger) by why is anesthesia considered one of the aspects of "ROAD?" I understand its competitive and the "A" fits in with the word lol, but according to a number of things I've looked at, it appears to have a moderate competitiveness now? Basically, I don't understand why its seen with the word as one of the most competitive things when statistically, there are things harder to get into? Thanks.

 

[phospho]

This is pretty off topic (saw it posted by Jagger) by why is anesthesia considered one of the aspects of "ROAD?" I understand its competitive and the "A" fits in with the word lol, but according to a number of things I've looked at, it appears to have a moderate competitiveness now? Basically, I don't understand why its seen with the word as one of the most competitive things when statistically, there are things harder to get into? Thanks.

from what I understand, ROAD specialties are competitive and have easy lifestyles (which is why Radonc and neurosurgery aren't in there for example). I could be wrong though.

 

[danzman]

from what I understand, ROAD specialties are competitive and have easy lifestyles (which is why Radonc and neurosurgery aren't in there for example). I could be wrong though.

Yup.
and it depends on who you ask as to what ROAD means.
The O is either ortho or ophtho, and gas is not as competitive as any of the others. In the end this is an outdated idea, as only Rads and Derm still offer loads of cash and a cush lifestyle, and Rads will become so specialized in the future that it will no longer offer lifestyle at the expense of income I would imagine. I think only Derm and pure cosmetic plastics can really be called "cush" these days. That and maybe a solid FM practice with a handfull of PAs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

This is pretty off topic (saw it posted by Jagger) by why is anesthesia considered one of the aspects of "ROAD?" I understand its competitive and the "A" fits in with the word lol, but according to a number of things I've looked at, it appears to have a moderate competitiveness now? Basically, I don't understand why its seen with the word as one of the most competitive things when statistically, there are things harder to get into? Thanks.

A gas doc I shadowed told me it used to be tough and really good in the 90s, then they opened a TON of resideny positions, took all the demand away by upping the supply.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Thanks for your reply. But my point is that it’s easier to stand out in the DO world where there are less competitive students (who initially have lower MCAT/GPA and are more into primary care), than the MD world where there are a lot more students gunning for the top. Seems that going DO will give you more “bang for your buck”. I’m not saying it’s a fact but it makes sense.

I think you've stumbled upon a big misconception here my friend. Remember that there is always a bigger fish in the sea. You're guaranteed to have people in your class with higher MCAT/GPA, and your also bound to find people who had lower MCAT/GPA and suddenly exploded in med school, making themselves superstars.

 

[rddoms]

I think you've stumbled upon a big misconception here my friend. Remember that there is always a bigger fish in the sea. You're guaranteed to have people in your class with higher MCAT/GPA, and your also bound to find people who had lower MCAT/GPA and suddenly exploded in med school, making themselves superstars.

This is completely true. MCAT and ugGPA mean squat once you're in. The last sentence is very true, and that's just the way it works. But a good thing is that being a d-bag makes it about as hard to get a competitive residency as having only decent grades, mainly because no one wants to work with you (from some friends at different programs).

 

[211519]

Nope.

I have posted about the ego of the medical student and how astonishing it is. My favorite story was about a girl who told me on the first day of class that she wanted to become triple board certified in OBGyn, Peds, and Neurosurgery so she could open up a free clinic in Africa and save babies born with defects. She just kept waiting for me to do what every other person had ever done when she told them this, that she was so great, and driven, and what a great and noble human she was. Instead I told her that I wanted to open up chains of abortion clinics on every street corner in every major city in the country to slaughter the unwanted crap that poor people keep having because they are too stupid to wear a condom. She looked at me like I was the devil himself. Best day ever. She failed a handful of classes and now takes enough Adderal to kill a small horse.

LOL.

 

[MSmentor018]

But a good thing is that being a d-bag makes it about as hard to get a competitive residency as having only decent grades, mainly because no one wants to work with you (from some friends at different programs).

yep...very true. even good grades won't save you if you're an ass during the interview/rotation. you'd be amazed on how much "who you know" and how you get along goes into the residency process. grades only play a part. if you do an outstanding audition rotation, they'll ignore a lot of your faults, including grades. on the other hand, they may take you on grades alone to help boost the program's numbers. it's all a balance. bottom line, don't be a D-bag

 

[DOinMS]

...bottom line, don't be a D-bag

VERY difficult (or impossible) for some people. Many people may seem helpful and friendly on the first day of school, but by the end of the first year their true personalities seem to emerge.

 

[ringhal]

Looking at a school's match list is an inaccurate gauge of a school's strength for several reasons. Residency applicants are weeded out on several levels prior to opening an envelop on match day.

Using myself as an example: First is self-selection. I didn't apply to Mass. Gen. for radiology because I didn't think I was a strong enough candidate. Second, a couple of programs did not even respond to my application request - if I remember correctly. Third, some places, like U. of Chicago, did not offer me an interview.

I matched at the first choice on my rank list, but if I'd matched at Tulane, my med school's match list would still show that I'd matched in radiology, but you, looking at it would not know that it was actually my 3rd choice. Nor would you know that UCSF would have been my first choice if I'd been granted an interview and been able to rank it. And it might have said UCLA internal medicine. Looking at the match list, no one would ever know that I had tried to match into radiology and failed.

For these reasons, a school's match list is of little value. You all really need input from more folks who have actually applied to residency, interviewed and experienced the fear of opening the envelop on match day.

 

[thanecyan]

Instead I told her that I wanted to open up chains of abortion clinics on every street corner in every major city in the country to slaughter the unwanted crap that poor people keep having because they are too stupid to wear a condom. She looked at me like I was the devil himself. Best day ever. She failed a handful of classes and now takes enough Adderal to kill a small horse

Thank you for this; it made me very happy.



As for the OP, I too had the same thought when I initially looked into the DO route but I agree with everyone else; I think it just boils down to the individual.

 

[DH78]

Instead I told her that I wanted to open up chains of abortion clinics on every street corner in every major city in the country to slaughter the unwanted crap that poor people keep having because they are too stupid to wear a condom. She looked at me like I was the devil himself. Best day ever. She failed a handful of classes and now takes enough Adderal to kill a small horse.

🤣

 

[Donvb]

Here’s what I’ve heard: When comparing an MD applying to a competitive ACGME residency and a DO applying to a competitive AOA residency, it is actually easier for the DO to get his or her residency of choice. The reasons are that about half the DOs go into primary (hence there is less competition between them to get into a competitive residency) and AOA residencies are exclusive only to DOs. Also as a DO you can apply to ACGME programs, although the more competitive ones are usually bias against DO and IMG.

Here’s what I’ve found out: About 1/5 of all medical school grads in the US are DOs and if you look at all the competitive residency programs (ortho, neurosurg, ENT, ophthalmology) about a little less than 1/5 of them are AOA.

Therefore if your dream is to become a doctor with a competitive specialty, you have a better chance to make it by going to an osteopathic medical school instead of an MD school where students are a lot more competitive and want the best specialty?

What do you guys think?

Faulty logic, take for example Radiology:

There are 12 DO rads programs in the country and they each take about 1-3 a year for about 24 spots total (give or take a couple each year)... So there are 24 TOTAL SPOTS each year! Theres just less programs...

 

[want2beadoc1]

This might not be the case for every specialty but definitely a lot of them including some very competitive ones like the ones I listed. Check it out: http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

 

[drmsm]

Faulty logic, take for example Radiology:

There are 12 DO rads programs in the country and they each take about 1-3 a year for about 24 spots total (give or take a couple each year)... So there are 24 TOTAL SPOTS each year! Theres just less programs...

This is a good example and the crux of the topic. Yes, if you are a DO student and apply ONLY osteo match, your chances are improved especially if that residency is in your school's OPTI. However, there are so few spots in the competitive fields, it balances out.

ALSO, I may note: GME from the allo field and osteo field are different. Different to certify the program, get approval, etc. Allo programs are more respected often, because of how long they have been around and how much they require to be approved/accredited. For example, the rads programs that are DO, many of them, are not really respected, and once you graduate you are AOCR certified vs ACR. Since there are only 29 spots a year (this year) how many people are AOCR? Not many. There are 1100 ACGME rads spots per year, so more people in the association, more respect, etc. This is not to say the training in the AOA field is always poor, but sometimes it is (smaller programs too). For this reason I just didn't even both applying AOA to my specialty and only went ACGME (did the AOA internship b/c of the 5 state rule, however).

 

[Gpan]

DOs have more residency spots coming from DO and MD, so we have more opportunities. That;s how I see it.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

DOs have more residency spots coming from DO and MD, so we have more opportunities. That;s how I see it.

Yeah ok, thats an optimistic view.

While not impossible, it is VERY VERY difficult to match into allopathic surgical subspecialties as a DO. So if you are applying for ortho, ent, urology etc, I would do yourself a favor and not count those MD programs as opportunities because chances are slim to none that you will land one of those.

As such, you are left with the osteopathic programs. Like I said, that's not to say it doesn't happen, but its not like IM or Peds etc where the allopathic programs are more DO friendly.

 

[JaggerPlate]

DOs have more residency spots coming from DO and MD, so we have more opportunities. That;s how I see it.

Yeah, what Buckeye said was 100% correct. You have every right in the world (as a DO) to apply to every ACGME program - for example - in existence ... but this doesn't necessarily increase your chances because of PD bias, too many qualified MD applicants, etc etc.

 

[liquid8r]

Danzman, please keep posting. Your stuff is pure gold.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

I have posted about the ego of the medical student and how astonishing it is. My favorite story was about a girl who told me on the first day of class that she wanted to become triple board certified in OBGyn, Peds, and Neurosurgery so she could open up a free clinic in Africa and save babies born with defects. She just kept waiting for me to do what every other person had ever done when she told them this, that she was so great, and driven, and what a great and noble human she was. Instead I told her that I wanted to open up chains of abortion clinics on every street corner in every major city in the country to slaughter the unwanted crap that poor people keep having because they are too stupid to wear a condom. She looked at me like I was the devil himself. Best day ever. She failed a handful of classes and now takes enough Adderal to kill a small horse.

Everyone wants those spots.

Greatest post in SDN history.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

from what I understand, ROAD specialties are competitive and have easy lifestyles (which is why Radonc and neurosurgery aren't in there for example). I could be wrong though.

I'm splitting hairs here but Rad Onc has great lifestyle with little true emergencies.

So technically, the "R" in ROAD stands for Rads and Rad Onc. Just like the "O" is Ophtho and Oto (not Ortho! They work their butts off).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Just like the "O" is Ophtho and Oto (not Ortho! They work their butts off).

Seems like that O is on the verge of falling off the holy ROAD list ... from what I've read in the Ophtho forums lately.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I always thought ROAD was based on which was hard to get into...not lifestyle?

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Seems like that O is on the verge of falling off the holy ROAD list ... from what I've read in the Ophtho forums lately.

Good point.

Compensation in ophtho has dropped but don't let anyone fool you. Starting salaries are variable, but after a few years in practice they're still making $250K+ with pretty much a 45 hour work week. And that's general ophtho. Subspecialists like Cornea, Glaucoma, and esp Retina often make much more.

So it's still very much a ROAD specialty. 😍

 

[stonewall22]

Thanks for your reply. But my point is that it’s easier to stand out in the DO world where there are less competitive students (who initially have lower MCAT/GPA and are more into primary care), than the MD world where there are a lot more students gunning for the top. Seems that going DO will give you more “bang for your buck”. I’m not saying it’s a fact but it makes sense.

That's a dangerous assumption...for example, I have a GPA that would've been too low for most allopathic schools, but not all. In the end I applied DO because I felt like, as a non-trad, they were a better fit for me. My GPA is low because I messed around my first three years of undergrad. However, I went on to graduate school, got a 4.0, and published 5 papers. I assure you, that had the "current" me been the same as the "old" me that earned a low GPA, my GPA would be VERY different. Your assumption is that everyone at DO schools is less capable because some have lower tests scores and GPAs, and that's just not true.

 

[Bond8204]

Agreed. There's just as many idiots in allo classes as there are osteo ones, from stories I've exchanged with my allo friends. Granted you don't have the 40 MCAT 3.95 GPA types at osteo school generally, but I could easily come up with 20 people in my class who I think are just as smart and capable as absolutely anybody I know who went to allo school.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Agreed. There's just as many idiots in allo classes as there are osteo ones, from stories I've exchanged with my allo friends. Granted you don't have the 40 MCAT 3.95 GPA types at osteo school generally, but I could easily come up with 20 people in my class who I think are just as smart and capable as absolutely anybody I know who went to allo school.

Likewise i cant find 10 people in my class that do not belong in medical school. I wouldn't let them within 100 feet of my family.

 

[Bond8204]

Totally agreed. You know what's ironic, though? Of that group I would never send patients to in my career, 1-2 do decently to really well in class. Oh, and again, I have friends from allo school (IU) who have said the same exact thing. That one's more a universal truth than osteo-specific.