Getting into a MD/PhD Program with a Criminal Record

[sailor4life]

Hi, I'm going to try to make my back story and current situation as brief as possible so here we go.

I have a AS in Computer Science 4.0
I just Graduated with a BS/BA in Biochemistry and Psychology with a minor in Biology 3.8

I'm now 33 and planing on starting to think about applying to MD/PhD programs my goal is to work in Psychiatry and Psychology

MCAT Scores
V 12.5
PS 11.61
BS 12.55

For over a decade from age 17 - age 28 I suffered through crippling substance abuse and depression issues.

I have NO felonies on my record somehow but have multiple DUI's, two in one state and two in another hence how I avoided a felony I also have one possession of pot charge from my early twenties. A trespassing charge (not theft) and a mal mischief charge and served a total of 2 months incarcerated. I was very lucky I did not kill or hurt anyone. Although I obviously hurt my family and friends emotionally while going down this path.

At 29 I got into treatment and turned my life around. I worked my way through school as a full-time line cook. I'm off probation and volunteer working with at risk youth for the past 2 years. And frequently go and speak to high schools.

My whole goal is to continue my education to help youth and young adults that are starting to travel down my old path. I'm interested in the medical component because I believe that's where my addictions started back when I was being treated for ADHD and Depression in my early childhood.

I have clear and defined goals for my new direction in life and great professor recommendations. I'm not shy about my past and in fact open about my past indiscretions. In fact my undergraduate thesis was focused around my experiences. I have been clean the past 4 years and live and healthy active life.

I have talked to professors who have said I won't know unless I apply and then if I do get in to a program I would have to later get waivers for licensing from whatever state I will practice and do research in.

I guess I want to hear thoughts before I start shelling out money on applications.

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[Gunslingerneckbeard]

First and foremost,

I congratulate you on turning your life around. It takes a lot of character and integrity to better yourself as a human being. I hope any admissions committee see this ability to overcome adversity as a measure of a tough persona and enough charisma to accomplish a lot in life.

Secondly, I would check with each institution! I would think private institutions have different regulations that they abide by from public institutions, where tax payer dollar and the sense of being a part of the public sets certain expectations and standards. It seems like you're past most of your crimes and you have paid your debt to society with your time served as well as your activity in the high schools.

Unfortunately while I have a lot of faith in you, your aptitude intellectually and socially, I can't speak for most medical schools. However, I think you'll be fine. Your academic accolades are superb!

Just curious though, have you done any research in your field? MD/PhD schools are usually looking for applicants who are prime and ripe to throw in for a life time of heavy duty long, laborious, and "insider access" research, which is why they invest a lot of money into these applicants.

Unfortunately, I think another factor is your age. I personally don't believe in age discrimination, but then again, I'm not on the admissions faculty of an MD/PhD school.

Have you considered regular MD? I think at 33, they would be a little more liberal. Your MCAT is very competitive for a regular MD. They also have MD/MS or MD/MA programs, and I think most states require counselors to have an MS or MA in Psychology or Social Work, which could be perfect for your intentions.

I don't know if this would work as well, but considering DO institutions are pretty liberal on age limitations, and the fact your MCAT is pretty much overkill for a DO, you could consider that option. I also know they even have a DO/PhD option, which would suit you well. You seem to have a very strong application for that too.

Overall, I would check with your institution on how they view such background and weigh all options, then rank them in terms of:

1) Viability
2) Importance
3) Personal finances
4) Long term happiness

In no particular order of course.

Have a great day, best of wishes, and again,

It puts a smile on my face that you've done so well in changing your life.

 

[sailor4life]

Thank you for your words of encouragement, I have one research paper that got some attention from a Johns Hopkins professor I was not a Johns Hopkins grad but it was directly targeted to his field of study.

I have looked into just medical school but I'm hung up on the licensing fear and wanted a fall back plan in the research field. I'm sure I'd be fine getting a license to practice Psychology since by the time I went for it I would be 9 - 11 years clean.

I have not considered DO-PhD Programs but will look into them.

Thank you again for taking your time to respond

 

[gbwillner]

Sailor,
Congratulations on turning your difficult life around. I hope you make the best of it. In regards to an MD/PhD I would not advise it for you.

The harsh truth is that you are very old to begin this kind of training. As mentioned in other not-too-old threads, starting at 33-35 means likely completing your medical and science training in your 50's. You are unlikely to stick with it and are thus unlikely to convince administrators that you would do so. I am not stating it is impossible but very unlikely, regardless of your ambitions or sincerity.

Re: your criminal record- this is something that will certainly cause a lot of difficulty for you. You may have a lot of difficulty not just getting admitted into medical school, but even worse, having trouble getting a medical licence. Without that, all the medical training is for naught. I've seen people with offenses as minor as "minor in possession" have to go through a lot of hoops- including getting the charges expunged from the record just to get their license. Once you have a licence transgressions are treated very differently and physician organisations and the board will try to protect you. But at your stage, you are such a huge risk for them I can see them making it impossible for you. While a felony conviction would make it guaranteed you'd never get a med school acceptance, serving time in prison may make it just as bad... I'd check with state licensing boards to see if it would even be possible to get a license before spending any more time thinking about medicine as your future profession.

Good luck.

 

[MSTPlease]

MCAT Scores
V 12.5
PS 11.61
BS 12.55

Since when are MCAT scores not integers?

 

[sailor4life]

MSTPlease 13 - 12 - 13 I got a 37 or 36.66 or 36.7 quantitative score. I was being detailed to get feedback as I know I got a good score. I guess I could have just given an overall score in an irrelevant standardized test IMO.

Hey gbwillner,

Thanks for your thoughts and honest feedback, I followed your advice and it does appear I'm going to have a serious struggle also on the MD side.

I don't really know what I want to do with myself right now. I guess I could look into other states licensing practices. Or just focus on a PhD. My main goal is to help parents dealing with kids like I was. But I don't want to be the last resort like the doctor that put me on Ambian at 12 years old. Or the doctor that gave me clinical grade cocaine in the 2nd grade.

I also don't necessarily believe in holistic meds like many D.O's follow.

 

[deleted480308]

MSTPlease 13 - 12 - 13 I got a 37 or 36.66 or 36.7 quantitative score. I was being detailed to get feedback as I know I got a good score. I guess I could have just given an overall score in an irrelevant standardized test IMO.

Hey gbwillner,

Thanks for your thoughts and honest feedback, I followed your advice and it does appear I'm going to have a serious struggle also on the MD side.

I don't really know what I want to do with myself right now. I guess I could look into other states licensing practices. Or just focus on a PhD. My main goal is to help parents dealing with kids like I was. But I don't want to be the last resort like the doctor that put me on Ambian at 12 years old. Or the doctor that gave me clinical grade cocaine in the 2nd grade.

I also don't necessarily believe in holistic meds like many D.O's follow.

It's a bit presumptuous at this point to be turning down DO schools. I don't remember seeing a requirement to hand out cocaine in the brochure 😉. Maybe try being as open minded as you are asking the admission depts to be

 

[ratherbefishing]

a) Great job turning things around. There are plenty of current MD's with issues that they struggle to address. If you google your state's medical board records, you will see there are numerous substance abuse violations and ethics that get reported - at least you know not to go there again.
b) "My whole goal is to continue my education to help youth and young adults that are starting to travel down my old path. I'm interested in the medical component because I believe that's where my addictions started back when I was being treated for ADHD and Depression in my early childhood." I don't see "running a lab, doing mostly research, love science" in that statement. I'm not sure your desire to do research is strong enough to get you into an MSTP (at least from the snippet we're seeing).
c) Starting at 33/34 is a bad idea. Get an MD or DO and get on with helping those kids. With your stats and story, you should be able to get in somewhere. I don't think you'll have problems getting licensed (but you should check this).

 

[sailor4life]

sb247 - you are correct - I was a bit presumptuous - I need to do more research on DO programs before just writing them off. Thanks for calling me out.

ratherbefishing
a) I'm checking that out
b) I'm starting to agree with everyone that MD/PhD is not the best path for me, and really my goal was to find a way I could combine research along with seeing patients
c) getting licensed is my greatest fear I don't want to complete schooling later to find out I cannot get a license to practice. Do you recommend check with the medical board in my state or just a school of interest.?

 

[deleted480308]

I only brought it up because the colloquial belief around here is DO schools (besides having lower stat avg) are more friendly to people with a story

 

[sailor4life]

I've read more into the DO track and it does seem very interesting. Also for what it's worth (if anything) both my grandparents (deceased) were graduates of Duke Medical School. I know Duke a tough school to get into plus adding my history to say the least. Could that have any weight on an application to Duke.? I also have the ability to get a character reference from a police officer (one that arrested me years ago) because he occasionally calls me down to the jail to talk to youth they arrest on drug and alcohol related charges. Also some of the teachers that invite me to their classes including a principle. Don't know if any of these things make a real difference. I would plan to continue doing this where ever I ended up in school.

Of course my biggest concern is licensing if I'm even allowed to attempt med school or a DO program.

 

[cpi89]

1) No, having a relative that went to Duke won't help you get into Duke, unless perhaps they have a building on campus named after them.
2) I would focus your LORs on people who can speak to your aptitude in research or academics, though if your work at the school/jail is significant to you you can certainly touch on that in your application.

If your not set on MD/PhD, your questions might be better answered in the general pre-med forum. MD PhD admissions have very different priorities than MD admissions and the weight of your criminal record will probably be considerably different.

I think you have an uphill battle ahead of you, but it sounds like you are used to that. Good luck.

 

[gbwillner]

MSTPlease 13 - 12 - 13 I got a 37 or 36.66 or 36.7 quantitative score. I was being detailed to get feedback as I know I got a good score. I guess I could have just given an overall score in an irrelevant standardized test IMO.

Hey gbwillner,

Thanks for your thoughts and honest feedback, I followed your advice and it does appear I'm going to have a serious struggle also on the MD side.

I don't really know what I want to do with myself right now. I guess I could look into other states licensing practices. Or just focus on a PhD. My main goal is to help parents dealing with kids like I was. But I don't want to be the last resort like the doctor that put me on Ambian at 12 years old. Or the doctor that gave me clinical grade cocaine in the 2nd grade.

I also don't necessarily believe in holistic meds like many D.O's follow.

Sailor,
Unfortunately, the state licence committees and boards will not vary much into what they will or won't allow for someone to get their licence. As I suspected, it will be near impossible for you to get a licence anywhere- MD or DO- it won't matter.

At this point I would look for other ways to create a fulfilling career. If you want to work with at-risk youths, there are many better ways to do that than with an MD. Actually, an MD is a pretty crummy way to do that anyway. Time will also be a factor for you as am MD, even without the PhD portion. You are still looking at 8 more years of training AFTER matriculation. And the cost (financial) is pretty staggering- that coupled with the high probability you will be unable to obtain a medical licence makes this a terrible decision for you, IMHO.

Good luck.

 

[sailor4life]

cpi89 Thank you for you input.

gbwiller - Thank you for looking into this for me and all your feedback. As I expected when I started out cleaning my life up close to 5 years ago I knew I would have limitations based on my actions and behavior for over a decade. (As I should have limitations) you do the crimes you pay the price a civil society hands you whether I like it or not and I can accept this.

With that said, I wonder if maybe going back and taking another look at just a PhD track in Clinical Psychology with a MS in Biochemistry or a Brain and Cognitive Science PhD program with some other combination that would allow me to work with patients as well. And later looking into finding a psychiatrist MD/PhD to work with in a post doc position that is focused on addiction and substance abuse research might be worth doing. I have not researched limitations in getting a lic to practice Clinical Psychology but I would assume they might be a little more relaxed since I would not have the ability to prescribe medications.

As far as finances I have also rehabilitated my bank account and savings the past years and was able to work my way through undergrad without taking out loans. I also have been working the past few months as a programmer for a well funded startup that is paying me pretty well and gives me flexible hours. (probably better than I would get paid as a psychologist.) I have a partner and we live on my sailboat (no kids) which I own free and clear so our expenses are very low. (like under 600 per month in a major city)

As for age after losing/living for close to 10 years for the drugs and bottle (anything) even showering and ****ting inside still feels like a treat. I would not feel like I'm losing anything spending another 5 - 8 years in school. In those 10 rough years I still got to travel the world working in oilfields as a ships engineer so I don't feel like I'll be missing anything in life. I could also consider that time as field research 😉 jk

As for goals/contributions I'd like to make in a career would be doing research in the area of substance abuse treatment. Not just treating patients. And my area of interest is in dual diagnoses and personality disorders which I know is not a well funded area.

Also some of my beliefs are on the controversial side of current schools of thought as I don't believe addiction and alcoholism is a disease and also think 12 step programs can many times do more harm than good misinforming people about the actual complexities and effects of the prolonged use of drugs and alcohol has on the brain and body. And the reason people maybe addicts and or criminals or both. (not saying 12 step programs are bad for all people) I just think there needs to be more tailored treatments and options both long and short term out there for people that have substance abuse issues and problems with the law and less closed mindedness on what works and what won't for long-term treatment if needed. This level of interest rules out a MSW/LCSW track as an option for me. As being a person that heavily disagrees with a lot of current treatment theories existing today. I would have a very difficult time working as a counselor in a hospital ward, treatment center, jail or prison to say the least. To do that I would need to have a firm foundation for doing serious research or else I would feel like I'm just paying right back into a failed system. Not to discredit the efforts many smart good people make in trying to help these types of people, it's just not an ambition of mine to contribute in that fashion.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[gutonc]

With that said, I wonder if maybe going back and taking another look at just a PhD track in Clinical Psychology with a MS in Biochemistry or a Brain and Cognitive Science PhD program with some other combination that would allow me to work with patients as well. And later looking into finding a psychiatrist MD/PhD to work with in a post doc position that is focused on addiction and substance abuse research might be worth doing. I have not researched limitations in getting a lic to practice Clinical Psychology but I would assume they might be a little more relaxed since I would not have the ability to prescribe medications.

I too don't know the specific rules on licensing for Psych PhDs and PsyDs but I think that's probably the best answer for you.

 

[QofQuimica]

I too don't know the specific rules on licensing for Psych PhDs and PsyDs but I think that's probably the best answer for you.

Agree.

OP, besides the already discussed difficulty of you getting a medical license, I'd also point out that putting yourself in a position where you'll be able to prescribe and handle controlled substances could be dangerous for your own recovery. You've done a great job with cleaning up your life. Why take the risk of relapsing because of having convenient and legal access to controlled substances? This can be a serious and even life-threatening issue for physicians with addiction problems, especially in certain procedural specialties like anesthesia, emergency med, and critical care. Not worth it in my opinion for someone as high risk as you are.

I think we can all agree that you would certainly have a valuable perspective and experience to contribute to your future field, and I wish you the best of luck with your career.

 

[sakata8242]

Can't offer much insight into how your legal background will affect applications or licensing down the road -- you might look to see if you can get some of it expunged depending on your jurisdiction
But starting an MD/PhD at 33 is getting a late start, for sure. You're easily looking at 12 years of required training before you're even ready to start practicing what/how you want, and getting a research career off the ground. But then again, going straight MD and taking on $200,000 in debt at the age of 33 isn't a great option either, considering how long it will take to pay it back, especially on a psychiatry salary.