Getting MD and PhD separately?

[NeuroResearch1996]

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Although my highest goal is an MSTP acceptance, I am not too confident about getting in due to my mediocre GPA. I will definitely plan on applying anyways to give it a shot (I am a rising junior currently so I will be taking my MCAT and doing applications approximately a year from now) but I think my most realistic option is to settle with grad school (the Neuroscience PhD program at my university) after undergrad. I was planning on applying to the medical school at my university each year during my enrollment in the Neuroscience Grad School. But my current realistic option is to apply to medical school after earning my PhD.

Is this plan going to yield the same results as someone who went through with an MSTP program, i.e. does getting the MD and PhD separately hold the same weight as the MD-PhD dual degree (if it even makes a difference)?

 

[Neuronix]

1. How mediocre is your GPA? Over the years I've seen people say mediocre with a 3.8 and a 2.8.

2. If you want to be a physician-scientist by doing the degrees separately, my advice is to do the MD first. You can then tailor the PhD later to your chosen specialty. That is the strongest, most direct pathway. It is also a relatively flexible pathway.

 

[QofQuimica]

Speaking as someone who did separate degrees (PhD-to-MD), I agree with Neuro. Get yourself into medical school, then get the PhD later if you still want it. You can even do it after med school if you want. Regarding your question, no, it won't make a difference which degree you do first.

 

[kchan99]

I'm not sure how practical it will be obtain a MD and PhD outside of a MD/PhD program. In my opinion, it would be more simpler to get a MD, finish residency, and then a longer fellowship with a postdoctoral fellowship component. Of course, during med school and residency, make sure to get research experience and a couple papers published. One reason for doing a clinical and research fellowship is to use NIH loan repayment programs. I'm not sure if the NIH loan repayment program would be applicable for a MD in a PhD program. The other issue with going into a PhD program after med school is delaying the start of residency. Remember, there will little, if any, clinical exposure during PhD programs. This would be a set back when starting residency.

 

[NeuroResearch1996]

Okay, thank you for your replies. Then I guess another question I have is if it is possible (or even allowed) generally to do the MD and PhD dual degree at the same time without actually being in the program (so being enrolled in both the graduate and medical school). Since it is possible for an MD-PhD student to do both, I don't see why not a student accepted into both programs separately can do the same thing. Ignoring costs, which will obviously be a factor later but just thinking about it in this aspect.

 

[Neuronix]

Then I guess another question I have is if it is possible ... to do the MD and PhD dual degree at the same time without actually being in the program (so being enrolled in both the graduate and medical school).

No.

Since it is possible for an MD-PhD student to do both, I don't see why not a student accepted into both programs separately can do the same thing. Ignoring costs, which will obviously be a factor later but just thinking about it in this aspect.

Your logic is faulty.

MD programs require full time concentration on medical school.

PhD programs require full time concentration on grad school coursework and the lab when you start. There is often some teaching component.

MD/PhD programs integrate the MD and PhD components such that you're doing lab rotations in the summer between MS1 and MS2 and often before MS1. You might be able to sneak in an easy PhD course or two while in med school. Teaching is usually (and IMO should be) waived for MD/PhD students. As an MD/PhD you still have access to med school shadowing or other experience as a PhD student.

You can't just create one of these programs from scratch by yourself. Why would you even want to? There are plenty of MD/PhD programs out there.

One option I've seen is people starting MD school, then taking a break between MS2 and MS3 to do a complete PhD there or somewhere else before returning. This is also not a great idea. First, the MD/PhD program tends to save you time by cutting excess requirements and can bail you out of malignant labs when needed. Second, you will owe full tuition for med school. Third, you lose all integration between the two programs--as far as MD/PhD specific coursework and experience that is often built into integrated programs.

I have no idea why you're even considering this.

 

[dl2dp2]

Okay, thank you for your replies. Then I guess another question I have is if it is possible (or even allowed) generally to do the MD and PhD dual degree at the same time without actually being in the program (so being enrolled in both the graduate and medical school). Since it is possible for an MD-PhD student to do both, I don't see why not a student accepted into both programs separately can do the same thing. Ignoring costs, which will obviously be a factor later but just thinking about it in this aspect.

Administratively, this doesn't happen. If you get into med school and the PhD program, you'd have to pick one because you are considered full time for each program and you can't be full time in two different programs simultaneously (it should be clear why this is so: you can't split yourself in half and be two places at once). You can take a LEAVE OF ABSENCE in med school and do a PhD, but that involves deferring the PhD. Generally speaking if you got into PhD and MD but separately at the same institution, you can communicate with the MSTP director to work out some arrangement to integrate the program into an MSTP, especially if you don't care about the money.

 

[kchan99]

Administratively, this doesn't happen. If you get into med school and the PhD program, you'd have to pick one because you are considered full time for each program and you can't be full time in two different programs simultaneously (it should be clear why this is so: you can't split yourself in half and be two places at once). You can take a LEAVE OF ABSENCE in med school and do a PhD, but that involves deferring the PhD. Generally speaking if you got into PhD and MD but separately at the same institution, you can communicate with the MSTP director to work out some arrangement to integrate the program into an MSTP, especially if you don't care about the money.

I've seen PhD students start med school before defending their dissertations. These students were in PhD programs, but decided midway that they wanted to be clinical. They completed their research projects, but were still in the process of writing a paper and finishing their dissertations. They finished writing during the first year of med school, and then defended during the summer between first and second years.

 

[QofQuimica]

I've seen PhD students start med school before defending their dissertations. These students were in PhD programs, but decided midway that they wanted to be clinical. They completed their research projects, but were still in the process of writing a paper and finishing their dissertations. They finished writing during the first year of med school, and then defended during the summer between first and second years.

Starting med school "ABD" (all but dissertation) can sometimes be done, but not all med schools allow this, and you shouldn't count on being allowed to do this. In general, you should anticipate that the medical school will expect you to have completed all of your PhD requirements (including the dissertation and defense) prior to matriculation (though not necessarily prior to application). In other words, it's fine to apply and interview during your last year of grad school while writing up your thesis (which is what I did), but you should plan on completing and defending it before you actually matriculate into medical school.

OP, again, focus your efforts on getting a medical school acceptance, as this has a much higher entry bar compared to getting into grad school. You will have no problem gaining entry to a PhD program at any point in the future should you decide you want to do the PhD too.