Girl in my class tried to jump out of the window during a anatomy-test...

[Simmy]

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Happend yeasterday.... For some people in my class there was the last re-take for the second (and last) anatomy test this year. This one girl apparantly came 40 minutes late to the test and the TA told her that she could not take the test and had to speak to the head of the department first. She went there but the the department head declined her request for taking the test and told her to go back to the TA (at least thats how I understood it happend)....

The girl then went into the classroom where the test was taking place, walked passed the TA to the end of the room where there are big windows (second floor, about 7 meters down), opend the window, placed a chair infront if it and stepped onto the edge....

Just by the time she was about to fall out the TA (a woman) grabbed, her. But the girl is not that small so luckily one of the other students reacted fast and helped her pull her in.......

The girl who is an american student (19 years old) is apparently on a coctail of anti-depressivs, she is kindeof weird, and I dont know her that well. I only know that she seems to be having some problems and that she has had a pretty odd behavior earlier too...

Anyways... What happend after was that the teachers LET HER TAKE THE TEST (are u ****ing kidding me!!!)... But I dont know if it was just to calm her down or not...

The girl was not in class today, and someone told me that apparantly she is in a hospital.... I hope that is correct, cous she should not be alone after a stunt like that... If this is how she reacts she should be in the medical system as a patient, not as a MD student. Ive seen that she has had a hard time handeling the pressure, crying and stuff like that. I think she should go back to her family in her states and get some treatment. She is to young to and unstabile to live alone here for sure....


SICK STUFF! Anyone else had similar experiences?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Notable exceptions aside (BU, anyone?) American schools seem to be better about screening than European schools. How much can you really know about someone who has just finished high school anyway?

 

[DoctorMedic]

Notable exceptions aside (BU, anyone?) American schools seem to be better about screening than European schools. How much can you really know about someone who has just finished high school anyway?

agreed

 

[PremedIowa]

Sounds a lot like the cry-for-help suicide attempt rather than the kind where you actually want to hurt yourself. Attempting to jump out of a window where there are 50 people to stop you doesn't seem like a great way to go about it.

Was she expelled or put on probation?

 

[Stixman28]

I had a couple of experiences in high school and college of ppl try to kill themselves at school. In my college, they were kicked out immediately, as it was understood they were not fit to continue with the program. They were able to reapply for admission, however, I never knew of anyone that was successfully readmitted.

In high school, they did it differently. When a kid in my class tried to hang himself by the curtain shades...they gave him a couple months to get back in control of himself, and let him back in no sweat.

I think it's odd they let the student continue the test.

 

[Simmy]

Notable exceptions aside (BU, anyone?) American schools seem to be better about screening than European schools. How much can you really know about someone who has just finished high school anyway?

I agree somewhat with this.. Our school here in Poland (at least the english program) is mostly based on "easier to get in... Really hard to pass"... Its good in the way that it gives people a chance, but negative in the way we saw here...

I dont know whats going to happen with her though...

 

[tomorrowgirl99]

In middle school a kid tried to hang himself with a curtain string. He ended up going to a "special" school. He had other behavioral problems.

 

[womp]

You guys ought to show some more compassion as future doctors. Suicide is not just some "stunt."

😕

 

[PremedIowa]

You guys ought to show some more compassion as future doctors. Suicide is not just some "stunt."

😕

In my experience, suicide attempts are often "stunts" of various kinds, in the sense that they are done to draw attention to an underlying problem, not because they are funny in any way. Especially when someone tries something that has a very low probability of succeeding (such as jumping off a very short ledge in a crowded classroom), they are often reaching out for help rather than truly attempting to do themselves in.

 

[FutureInternist]

Notable exceptions aside (BU, anyone?) American schools seem to be better about screening than European schools. How much can you really know about someone who has just finished high school anyway?

All the Pakistani & Indian schools are the same way.....& they make pretty good docs from what I know. If given the choice I would definitely go for Med school right out of high school....why the heck do I need to take stupid classes that do not help me at all. 😡. Waste of time & money.

 

[FutureInternist]

Sounds a lot like the cry-for-help suicide attempt rather than the kind where you actually want to hurt yourself. Attempting to jump out of a window where there are 50 people to stop you doesn't seem like a great way to go about it.

Was she expelled or put on probation?

That's what we learned in med school.....girls try more often, while guys succeed more often...if blowing your brains out can be called success.

Girls definitely do more of the "take a bunch of pills & call the boyfriend" stuff....guys just take a gun to their head.

Heard the news about the guy in China/Japan that got pushed off the bridge during a suicide attempt....cos the old guy who pushed him was angry at the stopped traffic etc....Irony.

 

[NJDIF]

All the Pakistani & Indian schools are the same way.....& they make pretty good docs from what I know. If given the choice I would definitely go for Med school right out of high school....why the heck do I need to take stupid classes that do not help me at all. 😡. Waste of time & money.

you dont go to college just to learn. its where you grow and mature. the college years are so formative that no one is the same person now that they were in high school.

i dont know anyone who would have been mature and responsible enough in high school to handle an american med school curriculum. you need to experience those formative years to learn about yourself, and develop into who you will eventually become.

 

[PremedIowa]

That's what we learned in med school.....girls try more often, while guys succeed more often...if blowing your brains out can be called success.

Girls definitely do more of the "take a bunch of pills & call the boyfriend" stuff....guys just take a gun to their head.

Heard the news about the guy in China/Japan that got pushed off the bridge during a suicide attempt....cos the old guy who pushed him was angry at the stopped traffic etc....Irony.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Must have been a really, really important meeting...that he didn't make anyway because he was put in jail.

 

[username456789]

you dont go to college just to learn. its where you grow and mature. the college years are so formative that no one is the same person now that they were in high school.

i dont know anyone who would have been mature and responsible enough in high school to handle an american med school curriculum. you need to experience those formative years to learn about yourself, and develop into who you will eventually become.

Heck, I know plenty of people who DID go through the college system who are still too immature to handle the med school curriculum. And yet, they're my classmates.

 

[username456789]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Must have been a really, really important meeting...that he didn't make anyway because he was put in jail.

FWIW, he pushed the guy onto the giant pad or whatever they use to break the guy's fall. The old guy was quoted as saying something to the effect of "that's just selfish, holding up traffic and causing a bunch of people stress they don't need."

 

[FutureInternist]

Some lady in Seattle (I think) received cards saying stuff like " I wish you had jumped" etc once she got talked down off of a bridge.

In their defense, if you're going to kill yourself just do it quietly w/o inconveniencing other people.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Males use more lethal means for suicide but females attempt suicide more often. (Makes sense as if you get it right the first time it makes it difficult to attempt again).

It's no surprise the young woman was put in the hospital as a physician has the duty to hospitalize someone that has a real intent and plan for suicide. You also have to gauge the likelihood of the suicidal individual will be rescued as it is more serious if the individual wants to do it somewhere where nobody is likely to rescue them. (Means his/her intent is to get the job done).

Depression is a serious problem, and many people attempt to self-medicate with alcohol and other things which just make the problem worse. Remember that the group with the highest proportion of suicides is elderly men by far. Are they crying out for help or are they just depressed. Think about that when your patients come into the office.

 

[Simmy]

you dont go to college just to learn. its where you grow and mature. the college years are so formative that no one is the same person now that they were in high school.

i dont know anyone who would have been mature and responsible enough in high school to handle an american med school curriculum. you need to experience those formative years to learn about yourself, and develop into who you will eventually become.

You have to take into account that in many countries in Europe you finish HS the year you turn 19... Then (at least in Norway) at least 50% use 1-3 years to get into med school... Alot of guys also have one year of military service before they can start their studies (thats a way to grow up fast.. belive me Ive done it)....

Its also pretty common to take a year off to work and travel (alot of girls do this)...

So by the time you start med-school you are 20-22 years old... Pretty similar like in the states... Cous we have alot of college level sience classes in HS.

 

[unsung]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Must have been a really, really important meeting...that he didn't make anyway because he was put in jail.

Let's try to read the whole story. The guy was also on psych meds and on his way to see a doc the time that happened... walking barefoot. So he was hospitalized afterward, not jailed.

Also, it's ridiculous to call suicide attempts "stunts". Girl in my HS class tried to kill herself (overdose pills) in her own home and almost succeeded. Attempts could easily turn into the real deal. I wouldn't call it a stunt.

 

[unsung]

You guys ought to show some more compassion as future doctors. Suicide is not just some "stunt."

😕

I know, right? Some of you pre-meds/med students scare me. I hope when y'all actually become doctors, you gain some maturity and compassion for the mentally ill. They're not just "making up" their pain and suicide is not just some "stunt".

I used to work in mental health and these people need your help, not your prejudice.

If docs can't even overcome the stigma of thinking mental illness is "not real", how do we expect the general public to ever understand or have compassion for the mentally ill?

 

[Depakote]

Dude.

No one is saying this girl isn't sick.

No one is saying she doesn't need help.


We're just saying that based on the dramatic means in which she attempted suicide, it was more likely a "cry for help" than an actual attempt to end her life. She still needs treatment, obviously. But she is far less likely to complete suicide than someone that hung themselves alone, locked themselves in the garage with the car on etc and were only discovered accidentally. It's more likely she wanted to be stopped, those people don't.



And yes, I'm going to be a terrible doctor. You don't have to say it.

 

[Simmy]

I know, right? Some of you pre-meds/med students scare me. I hope when y'all actually become doctors, you gain some maturity and compassion for the mentally ill. They're not just "making up" their pain and suicide is not just some "stunt".

I used to work in mental health and these people need your help, not your prejudice.

If docs can't even overcome the stigma of thinking mental illness is "not real", how do we expect the general public to ever understand or have compassion for the mentally ill?

I have to say that I think suicide/attempt of suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. And to treathen or "show off" attempts makes me sick... I have someone in my close family that took their own life. And to this day when I hear people trying to get attention by saying (or doing) stuff that indicates that they will kill themself it makes me furious, because they dont know the pain they inflict in other persons...

BUT I am completly aware that there are alot of people with severe depressions that have huge problems with communicating and to seek help. And therefor I am also very for better supportive systems and for people to open up around these topics so its not so stigmatised to be depressed.

FYI I am going to work at a acute-mental-institution ward this summer. I hope to gain alot of experience from that to be better to pick up on cases (like this girl) and to be able to help people BEFORE they reach that point. I do not stribe to work in psych as I finish MD. But I thunk its important for every doctor out there to have fundamental knowlage about topics like depression, drug abuse and psychosis. There are SO MANY cases of these disorders out there that are not picked up by the system, and I think its our job to do so....

 

[tomorrowgirl99]

It is a completely selfish act. When you are depressed or have some other mental illness its all consuming and its hard to think about anyone else but yourself.

 

[Rendar5]

"waaa waaa uncompassionate docs."
I hope all your psych patients are borderline personality disorders. Have fun being compassionate for all their parasuicides.

Seriously though I spent a month doing emergency psych where a huge part of the job is determining which suicidal ppl and which suicide attempts are serious, bull****, or unlikely to occur because the person is simply passively suicidal. Bull**** suicide attempts doesn't mean it's in their head, it means they're not really trying and we dont' ahve to commit them and whether they can even get better is anyone's guess (only one therapeutic model really shows any use. Drugs don't usually help. sometimes just better social support and structure helps). They do need help, but that's cause they ahve personality disorders and because a parasuicide can accidentally lead to a suicide cause they don't know better.

The others are much easier to deal with because one requires committing them and treating their disease until they get better. The other requires you to set up social supports and outpatient psychiatry so that they don't get worse and can get better on their own without really being a danger to themselves.

 

[RySerr21]

you dont go to college just to learn. its where you grow and mature. the college years are so formative that no one is the same person now that they were in high school.

i dont know anyone who would have been mature and responsible enough in high school to handle an american med school curriculum. you need to experience those formative years to learn about yourself, and develop into who you will eventually become.

Doogie Howser would have serious problems with this outrategously insulting claim!

 

[KeyzerSoze]

All the Pakistani & Indian schools are the same way.....& they make pretty good docs from what I know. If given the choice I would definitely go for Med school right out of high school....why the heck do I need to take stupid classes that do not help me at all. 😡. Waste of time & money.

Not saying that the graduates are bad doctors; in 6 years you can easily do the med school pre-reqs and the equivalent of an American medical school curriculum. However, a fair percentage of those who matriculate don't graduate, not so much for academic reasons but because they realize halfway through that they want to do something else.

 

[tomorrowgirl99]

"waaa waaa uncompassionate docs."
I hope all your psych patients are borderline personality disorders. Have fun being compassionate for all their parasuicides.

Seriously though I spent a month doing emergency psych where a huge part of the job is determining which suicidal ppl and which suicide attempts are serious, bull****, or unlikely to occur because the person is simply passively suicidal. Bull**** suicide attempts doesn't mean it's in their head, it means they're not really trying and we dont' ahve to commit them and whether they can even get better is anyone's guess (only one therapeutic model really shows any use. Drugs don't usually help. sometimes just better social support and structure helps). They do need help, but that's cause they ahve personality disorders and because a parasuicide can accidentally lead to a suicide cause they don't know better.

The others are much easier to deal with because one requires committing them and treating their disease until they get better. The other requires you to set up social supports and outpatient psychiatry so that they don't get worse and can get better on their own without really being a danger to themselves.

Um.. I think we have all been kind of saying the same thing. This was not a real attempt at suicide obviously.

 

[badasshairday]

.

 

[badasshairday]

Males use more lethal means for suicide but females attempt suicide more often. (Makes sense as if you get it right the first time it makes it difficult to attempt again).

Interesting. Looks like one sex is looking for pity... 😱

 

[Rendar5]

Um.. I think we have all been kind of saying the same thing. This was not a real attempt at suicide obviously.

Wasn't talking to those ppl. was talking to womp and unsung.

 

[Blesbok]

I don't know too many TAs that are teaching nineteen year old med students, so either your title is a lie or your story is a lie.

 

[tomorrowgirl99]

could be true. Also he is at a foreign medical school.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I don't know too many TAs that are teaching nineteen year old med students, so either your title is a lie or your story is a lie.

Its a different system. They go to med school staright out of high school.
The TA is probably an anatomy PhD student.
The story is totally plausible.

 

[WellWornLad]

I don't know too many TAs that are teaching nineteen year old med students, so either your title is a lie or your story is a lie.

Simmy is Norwegian and going to med school in Poland. Either that, or some troll spent waaaay too much effort in establishing a credible background for a dubious payoff. Suicide attempts aren't exactly troll fodder.

 

[Simmy]

I don't know too many TAs that are teaching nineteen year old med students, so either your title is a lie or your story is a lie.

As some other people allready said, I study in a 6 year MD program in Poland, and Im from Norway myself (I should put that in my sig so I dont have to repeat it all the time)...

The 6 year program is of european designed for people who are streight out of HS. In Europe we finish HS at the age of 19 with (we have classes in HS that is college curicculum for US ppl) , but this program which is a "english program" at a polish school is following the US curriculum...

There is also a 4 year program at our school for ppl who allready have a bachlor in sience...

And if you think I would waste my time making up stories to get "internet cred" you are wrong.

Im 22 years old btw. Because I had one a year of mandatory army/sivilian service and one year at a privat school taking sience classes after HS

 

[Simmy]

Its a different system. They go to med school staright out of high school.
The TA is probably an anatomy PhD student.
The story is totally plausible.

This is correct... Most of our TA's are PhD students who have mandatory work in the anatomyclasses for the MD students.

Just so its said.. I think its to early to start med-school at 17-18 years old.. Alot of the young American students are having bigger problems with passing and studying hard than the older and more mature European students (with some exceptions of cours)... Some of them should still be home with mommy and daddy...

Its quite a big change to move to another country. Better yet another CONTINENT to study far away from you family and friends in a really hard program at that age.

 

[unsung]

Dude.

No one is saying this girl isn't sick.

No one is saying she doesn't need help.


We're just saying that based on the dramatic means in which she attempted suicide, it was more likely a "cry for help" than an actual attempt to end her life. She still needs treatment, obviously. But she is far less likely to complete suicide than someone that hung themselves alone, locked themselves in the garage with the car on etc and were only discovered accidentally. It's more likely she wanted to be stopped, those people don't.



And yes, I'm going to be a terrible doctor. You don't have to say it.

I'm not sure why you thought my post was in response to your post.

My post was a response to a post further back regarding the guy who tried to jump off a bridge. The poster said something like, if you're going to kill yourself, just do it quietly without "inconveniencing other people".

The whole notion of suicide being "selfish" is something I struggle with. If someone is physically torturing me and I wish for death to relieve my suffering, am I being selfish? People relate to the physical torture example, but don't seem to extend that understanding to the suffering of the mentally ill.

Rendar5, I'm not sure where we disagree. Yes, there are different treatment models for the seriously suicidal and the manipulative para suicidal borderline folks. Bull*** suicides reflect a different inner suffering perhaps than the serious suicides. But there's still turmoil and suffering there. So what is meant by "Have fun being compassionate for all their para suicides"? In some ways, the manipulative folks are the ones who need our compassion the most, because they fail at establishing healthy, real relationships, which would provide them with real bonds and support. That is, short of the true psychopaths who truly lack any remorse/pain for any of their wrongdoing.

 

[FutureInternist]

I'm not sure why you thought my post was in response to your post.

My post was a response to a post further back regarding the guy who tried to jump off a bridge. The poster said something like, if you're going to kill yourself, just do it quietly without "inconveniencing other people".

The whole notion of suicide being "selfish" is something I struggle with. If someone is physically torturing me and I wish for death to relieve my suffering, am I being selfish? People relate to the physical torture example, but don't seem to extend that understanding to the suffering of the mentally ill.

Sorry Depakote.....guess you took the hit for what I said.
I am ALL FOR you relieving your suffering......Just don't make me suffer while you do it.

 

[ACGator09]

you dont go to college just to learn. its where you grow and mature. the college years are so formative that no one is the same person now that they were in high school.

i dont know anyone who would have been mature and responsible enough in high school to handle an american med school curriculum. you need to experience those formative years to learn about yourself, and develop into who you will eventually become.

truth.

 

[sheena09]

The majority of suicidal children and adolescents have clinical depression alone or in conjunction with another depressive illness like anxiety disorder, attention deficit disorder, bipolar illness (manic depression), or child-onset schizophrenia.

 

[MossPoh]

Notable exceptions aside (BU, anyone?) American schools seem to be better about screening than European schools. How much can you really know about someone who has just finished high school anyway?

I wouldn't be so sure of that. The suicide rate, substance abuse issues and other mental health problems are all much higher in med students here too.

It isn't like they start you straight off with standard medicine. The curriculum is adjusted too. I had a few friends that changed out once they realized it wasn't really for them.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Just something to throw out there: European high school graduates have gone through a much more difficult curriculum than we do in the US.

But yes, their combined MD programs are not really the same as what we have.

 

[TXDO]

Happend yeasterday.... For some people in my class there was the last re-take for the second (and last) anatomy test this year. This one girl apparantly came 40 minutes late to the test and the TA told her that she could not take the test and had to speak to the head of the department first. She went there but the the department head declined her request for taking the test and told her to go back to the TA (at least thats how I understood it happend)....

The girl then went into the classroom where the test was taking place, walked passed the TA to the end of the room where there are big windows (second floor, about 7 meters down), opend the window, placed a chair infront if it and stepped onto the edge....

Just by the time she was about to fall out the TA (a woman) grabbed, her. But the girl is not that small so luckily one of the other students reacted fast and helped her pull her in.......

The girl who is an american student (19 years old) is apparently on a coctail of anti-depressivs, she is kindeof weird, and I dont know her that well. I only know that she seems to be having some problems and that she has had a pretty odd behavior earlier too...

Anyways... What happend after was that the teachers LET HER TAKE THE TEST (are u ****ing kidding me!!!)... But I dont know if it was just to calm her down or not...

The girl was not in class today, and someone told me that apparantly she is in a hospital.... I hope that is correct, cous she should not be alone after a stunt like that... If this is how she reacts she should be in the medical system as a patient, not as a MD student. Ive seen that she has had a hard time handeling the pressure, crying and stuff like that. I think she should go back to her family in her states and get some treatment. She is to young to and unstabile to live alone here for sure....


SICK STUFF! Anyone else had similar experiences?

What's a great opera show in Europe eh!

 

[badasshairday]

Just something to throw out there: European high school graduates have gone through a much more difficult curriculum than we do in the US.

But yes, their combined MD programs are not really the same as what we have.

True that. In most countries high school is a hell of a lot harder than it is here in the States.

 

[FutureInternist]

True that. In most countries high school is a hell of a lot harder than it is here in the States.

That is definitely the case in Pakistan, India etc & all countries following the O & A levels British system. I did what would amount to Chem I, II, orgo I, II, Physics I & II w/ Calculus I thrown in for good measure....hence them starting med school right after high school makes sense to me.

 

[thanecyan]

Dude.

No one is saying this girl isn't sick.

No one is saying she doesn't need help.


We're just saying that based on the dramatic means in which she attempted suicide, it was more likely a "cry for help" than an actual attempt to end her life. She still ...


And yes, I'm going to be a terrible doctor. You don't have to say it.

Every once in a while I find 'golden' posts on SDN and I enjoy spending the time in thanking the poster.

So, Depakote, thank you very much.

 

[Excelsius]

Sorry Depakote.....guess you took the hit for what I said.
I am ALL FOR you relieving your suffering......Just don't make me suffer while you do it.

So let me get this straight: some of you here are saying that it is better to let someone commit suicide privately and not get any help so that the public is not inconvenienced? I wish you gave that answer at your interview (I am not just singling you out, by "you" I mean plural).

The irony here is that some of you are blaming a suicidal person for passing through a medschool filter yet you don't realize that you were able to pass it too, which in the public's eye is the real tragedy. Considering that your views are going to represent the entire group of doctors, you are basically going to affect every other doctor in the country and likely further bastardize the profession. It's sort of the the same thing with NASA: when something bad happens, the public knows about it and it haunts the scientists for years or decades, but the good things are not noticed with the same intensity or duration. The healthcare is in the dumps because bad apples are more salient. Compared to this, what Kevorkian did was actually humane.

 

[engineeredout]

That is definitely the case in Pakistan, India etc & all countries following the O & A levels British system. I did what would amount to Chem I, II, orgo I, II, Physics I & II w/ Calculus I thrown in for good measure....hence them starting med school right after high school makes sense to me.

Maybe that wouldn't be so bad here. High school was a complete waste of time.

 

[Rendar5]

So let me get this straight: some of you here are saying that it is better to let someone commit suicide privately and not get any help so that the public is not inconvenienced? I wish you gave that answer at your interview (I am not just singling you out, by "you" I mean plural).

The irony here is that some of you are blaming a suicidal person for passing through a medschool filter yet you don't realize that you were able to pass it too, which in the public's eye is the real tragedy. Considering that your views are going to represent the entire group of doctors, you are basically going to affect every other doctor in the country and likely further bastardize the profession. It's sort of the the same thing with NASA: when something bad happens, the public knows about it and it haunts the scientists for years or decades, but the good things are not noticed with the same intensity or duration. The healthcare is in the dumps because bad apples are more salient. Compared to this, what Kevorkian did was actually humane.

I take it you've never treated a borderline patient then who's attempting to commit a parasuicide? and you seem to take what he's talking about quite out of context from my own understanding of that quote and all the surrounding quotes.

 

[Excelsius]

I take it you've never treated a borderline patient then who's attempting to commit a parasuicide? and you seem to take what he's talking about quite out of context from my own understanding of that quote and all the surrounding quotes.

Parasuicide? Before I even answer that, I will ask you to please recheck some of the symptoms and facts described in this thread (especially what the OP said) and then come back here and tell me whether the symptoms discussed are commensurate to your hypothesis. I don't think you're being sarcastic, but correct me if I'm wrong.