Give up six digit job to pursue dentistry. Is it worth it?

[DDS_2022]

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Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

 

[free99]

What motivates the career change?

 

[Svart Aske]

4 years of lost opportunity cost + 500K in debt to be making about the same as what you are making now (average GP salary in CA).
Unless you absolutely hate your job and there's limited upward movement in your industry, I think this is a no-brainer.

 

[vsx3]

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

In hind sight, I would have gone to a cheaper school. Taking on 500k + INTEREST on a general dentist salary is awful. Either be in debt forever (like 20+ years paying minimum) or literally be poorer than you were in dental school trying to pay it off in 10 years. Sounds like you have a solid job too, so Im not sure I would make the change immediately. I understand if dentistry is your passion, but my suggestion is if you're determined to be at that particular school get on the military or national health service corps scholarships. That's one way to make the debt (or lack there of manageable). Another option is GOING TO A CHEAPER SCHOOL. That what I would have done... or at least go to a school that give you instate tuition after the first year. Unless you have mommy/daddy or loads of money sitting around paying 4 years for out of state or 100% cost of private dental school its not worth it.

That brings me to another point... if you see yourself as a specialist then the 500k is more manageable, but as a predental I wouldn't bank on that. So many things change. You change. What if you dont match or get accepted to X speciality...

Anyway, in summary my advice, GO TO YOUR STATE SCHOOL, or the cheapest school you're accepted into. If your state school is super expensive or you're not accepted and you're determined to be a dentist, MOVE! Do research and see what other programs are around you. Move, become a resident and bam! get accepted. Here's some free nuggets for you: Kentucky (two state dental schools... not too many instate students applying). Texas (3 state schools!!!- it is competitive tho.. but you've already gotten in before so...)

All the best to you. Consider your options, motivation, and know that no matter what dental school will always be around. One year isn't that long and I wish someone would have told me that. It seems like forever when you finally get in, but if i means waiting a year and saving 200k!!! Def worth it. Your first year out of dental school its rare you'll take home 200k in come.

 

[el_duderino]

So in 4 years, you'll be over a million dollars behind where you would be if you didn't go ($500k in debt + $520 lost income + interest you will be accruing on debt).

You're not likely to make that up after the fact via additional salary.

Is it worth it?

 

[Screwtape]

Is your 130k a year job pretty stable ? Will you get raises to atleast keep up with inflation ? Don’t hate your job? If you answered yes to all of these questions then I would say absolutely DO NOT go to Dental school for $500k.

 

[2TH MVR]

Another factor is benefits. Most corporate or public sector jobs (yours I assume) have benefits: medical insurance, PTO, paid vacation, paid sick days, employer retirement plans, etc. etc. If you become a dentist and open your own office ... YOU will be responsible for all those costs. You will not get large group discounts on your health insurance.

 

[Saddleshoes]

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

Here is my shoot from the hip answer...
1. Are you under 30? Yes. Over 40? No!!!
2. Is money your main motivator in life? No.
3. Do you like your present career? No.
4. Do you hate your present career? Maybe?
5. Are you a "dreamer" or a "realist"? Dreamer No/Realist yes.
6. Are you in ANY debt now? If so No. If not Maybe.
7. Are you married?
a. Is your marriage is solid? Yes
b. Is your marriage iffy? No.
c. No kids? Yes.
d. Kids? No.
e. Want to have kids? No.
8. Are you in excellent health? Yes
9. Do you have any chronic heath issues? No.
10. Are you accepted in a "cheap" state school? Yes
11. Are you accepted in a "for profit" private school? No.
12. Do you plan to stay in CA? No.
13. Do you mind living in small town America? Yes.
14. Can you run your own business, by yourself? Yes.
15. Do you feel more comfortable letting the boss handle the business details? No.
16. Are you my son or daughter? NO!!!!

 

[Yachi]

I wouldn’t, financially. Why did you decide to switch to dentistry? I feel like I never knew what I liked until I started to pick up the handpiece and started seeing patients. If you just hate your current job and want to enter healthcare, PA or nursing are better financial options.

 

[charlestweed]

How long have you had this 130k/year job? Why with such good job, you haven't been able to save anything and still have to take out $500k loan for dental school? Many of my engineering friends, who quit their jobs for dental school, all graduated with zero or very small amount of debt.

You can't become a successful dentist, if you don't know how to budget your expenses wisely, especially with 500k debt. Associate jobs in CA won't pay you as much as in other states. Learn as much as you can from your job and open your own office asap. I don't know how old you are. If you are 10+ years older than your classmates, then may not be worth it because dentistry is a physically demanding job.....unless you specialize in ortho, which requires an additional $100-300k loan (if you can't get accepted to program with a stipend).

 

[charlestweed]

I wouldn’t, financially. Why did you decide to switch to dentistry? I feel like I never knew what I liked until I started to pick up the handpiece and started seeing patients. If you just hate your current job and want to enter healthcare, PA or nursing are better financial options.

Nurses and PA's have to work under someone's supervision...and longer hours. You are your own boss when you are a dentist.

 

[DDS_2022]

How long have you had this 130k/year job? Why with such good job, you haven't been able to save anything and still have to take out $500k loan for dental school? Many of my engineering friends, who quit their jobs for dental school, all graduated with zero or very small amount of debt.

You can't become a successful dentist, if you don't know how to budget your expenses wisely, especially with 500k debt. Associate jobs in CA won't pay you as much as in other states. Learn as much as you can from your job and open your own office asap. I don't know how old you are. If you are 10+ years older than your classmates, then may not be worth it because dentistry is a physically demanding job.....unless you specialize in ortho, which requires an additional $100-300k loan (if you can't get accepted to program with a stipend).

I have a saving but i plan to just use the loan to cover for tuition and living expense. I am thinking to open my office right out of school by using my saving if my skills are allowed. I am in the process to apply for military scholarship but i am not sure if i will get it. However, i will be closed to 40 when i finish dental school. My job is pretty stable with all the benefits including pension when i retire. How is the job market for ortho because i actually think about going that route if i can get in?

Thanks everyone for answering my questions.

 

[DDS_2022]

How long have you had this 130k/year job? Why with such good job, you haven't been able to save anything and still have to take out $500k loan for dental school? Many of my engineering friends, who quit their jobs for dental school, all graduated with zero or very small amount of debt.

You can't become a successful dentist, if you don't know how to budget your expenses wisely, especially with 500k debt. Associate jobs in CA won't pay you as much as in other states. Learn as much as you can from your job and open your own office asap. I don't know how old you are. If you are 10+ years older than your classmates, then may not be worth it because dentistry is a physically demanding job.....unless you specialize in ortho, which requires an additional $100-300k loan (if you can't get accepted to program with a stipend).

Sorry i forgot to ask one more question. Do you think it is better to borrow less loan and use my saving or the other way around? Thank you.

 

[charlestweed]

I have a saving but i plan to just use the loan to cover for tuition and living expense. I am thinking to open my office right out of school by using my saving if my skills are allowed. I am in the process to apply for military scholarship but i am not sure if i will get it. However, i will be closed to 40 when i finish dental school. My job is pretty stable with all the benefits including pension when i retire. How is the job market for ortho because i actually think about going that route if i can get in?

Thanks everyone for answering my questions.

I see. I think it's better to use your saving to pay for your education. When you graduate with less debt, it will be easier for you to obtain a business loan....and you can write it off..... can't write off on the student loan.

I think it'll be hard to start a practice right out of school because school only teaches you the basics. You need to gain clinical experience from your job. You need to learn how your successful boss runs his/her practice.

2 of my former classmates started school when they were 36 and 40 yo. The 36 yo guy specialized in Endo and the 40 yo guy specialized in ortho. They were both very happy with their decisions to leave their engineering jobs.....but that's almost 20 years ago, when the tuition was only 1/4 of what it is today.

There are more orthodontists now than when I graduated 15+ years ago. However, there is still a shortage of orthodontists, who are willing to treat low income and medicaid patients. If you know how to keep your overhead low and offer low fee treatments, you will do very well.

 

[Fido00]

No. It is not worth it. I went to dental school as a PA. I was not making anything near 130K at the time.
You will not make up the opportunity cost of going to dental school.
Just. Don't. Do. It.

 

[deleted659902]

don't do it!! 130k as a 30 something tells me you are no rookie in your chosen career. might be better to just focus on your current career and climbing up the ladder. have you talked with financial planners and such for retirement plans etc? at your age, if i were you, i'd more worry about improving the quality of life in 40s and 50s.

 

[2TH MVR]

Translation -> if you can deal with working in an undesirable area of a city with a high volume of patients who are generally unhappy, you will do financially very well, maybe not emotionally or physically.

Another way to look at this is that low income patients are no where near as high maintenance as middle and high income patients. These patients tend to appreciate what you do more so than middle-high income patients.

 

[deleted659902]

Another way to look at this is that low income patients are no where near as high maintenance as middle and high income patients. These patients tend to appreciate what you do more so than middle-high income patients.

I agree, but with these so called middle and high income fee-for-service patients you don't deal with a high clinical volume.

 

[charlestweed]

Translation -> if you can deal with working in an undesirable area of a city with a high volume of patients who are generally unhappy, you will do financially very well, maybe not emotionally or physically.

This is probably true for general dentistry but not for ortho. Seeing 60-100 ortho patients a day is still many times easier than working 8 hrs a day as a gp. No back pain. It's actually more stressful (and boring) not to have a busy non-stop working schedule because there are rent and staff salaries to pay.

When I work at the Corp office, I have to bring a laptop (to read SDN and orthotown posts) to kill time in the morning because it's very slow and most kids are at school.

 

[charlestweed]

Another way to look at this is that low income patients are no where near as high maintenance as middle and high income patients. These patients tend to appreciate what you do more so than middle-high income patients.

Yup. Don't need to sell cases...don't need to advertise....don't have to deal with a bunch of nonsense emergency calls.....I can sleep better at night.

 

[321931]

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

Dentists have not gotten a raise from insurance companies since forever. We are stuck at the 2000 deductible max since the 90's, and every other year there has been reimbursement decreases on certain procedures with new rules and limitations. (IE filling is not covered within 2 years of placement, I wouldn't be surprised if it changes to 4 years in the future.)

You are at the mercy of insurance companies. In 2005 Market cap for united healthcare was 50 billion, its worth 250 billion now. Good luck.

There a dentist on every corner of the street now-a-days upping competition and also validating lower insurance reimbursement costs.

If I was in your shoes, I could come out literally a DECADE worth of net worth ahead of a dentist in those 4 years. Why are you even considering this route?

 

[gn4]

If you hate your current job, I say go for it. Just live frugally and you will be ok.

 

[786783]

Dentists have not gotten a raise from insurance companies since forever. We are stuck at the 2000 deductible max since the 90's, and every other year there has been reimbursement decreases on certain procedures with new rules and limitations. (IE filling is not covered within 2 years of placement, I wouldn't be surprised if it changes to 4 years in the future.)

You are at the mercy of insurance companies. In 2005 Market cap for united healthcare was 50 billion, its worth 250 billion now. Good luck.

There a dentist on every corner of the street now-a-days upping competition and also validating lower insurance reimbursement costs.

If I was in your shoes, I could come out literally a DECADE worth of net worth ahead of a dentist in those 4 years. Why are you even considering this route?

Maybe because his life worth is not overwhelmingly measured in net worth. Maybe.

 

[TanMan]

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

Title is quite broad... six digit job. There's many variables to consider when making the leap.
- Are you stuck at 130k or do you have the potential to make much more? If you're stuck at around that income level, I would definitely consider going to dentistry. If you have the potential to make 500-900k+ in the future, stick to your current job.
- Debt is high, and you need to be flexible to pay it back. Flexible meaning you should go wherever there is demand to make as much money as possible. Unfortunately, California is saturated in the major metropolitan areas, you might be able to carve a niche in places like apple valley, chico, etc... If you are stuck in CA, I'm hesitant to recommend pursuing dentistry. I'm originally from California... and I wouldn't go back as a resident (maybe to fly back and eat sushi). 13.3% state income tax.... great to visit, horrible to be classified as a resident. Don't get me started about Cal-OSHA and franchise taxes...
- It is possible to pay off the debt as an associate (as long as you're aggressive, willing to make money, move where there's a ton of patients and as long as your office can keep feeding you tons of patients).
- You should consider owning an office at some point, the returns will be much greater than being an associate.
- Do you have a family to support? If you do, it's going to be hard while you're in dschool.

Anyway, if you're willing to work hard, open an office, and are flexible in location, be a dentist. You'll make way more than 130k and catch up very quickly. (520k for 4 years of lost wages + 500k of tuition + interest... opportunity cost is high, real cost is still pretty high at 500k+interest), but it's not much in the grand scheme of a productive dental career. It sounds a lot as a student, but as a dentist owner, it's not too bad. At your peak production years, you should be able to pay that off in less than a year

 

[Trave_]

I’m in a similar position as you and I’ve decided to go to dental school. My consulting job pays absurdly well, but realistically it is not a long-term gig due to 1) travel requirements and 2) minimal upward mobility. As a dentist you will have the ability to earn much more for a longer period of time, especially with the work ethic you’ve already set for yourself.

 

[DocJL]

I agree, but with these so called middle and high income fee-for-service patients you don't deal with a high clinical volume.

In the real world, all too often, you DO.

Many of them have good jobs, which include dental benefit (insurance). So you will see them in your typical PPO private office, if you are located in a nice part of town/ suburbs.

Not all, but many of these patients are the worst of both worlds. They don't want to spend anything, are insurance driven, but STILL expect to be pampered and have you take lots of time with them.

 

[2TH MVR]

If you think about it .... everything medically related is insurance driven. I cannot fathom going into a health facility without medical insurance. Unfortunately ... dentistry is also heading this way. When you think FFS ... these patients are typically paying MORE for the same services than insurance patients .... and they know it. Patients nowadays are programmed into thinking that insurance pays for everything.

Historically my ortho practice was 100% FFS. Over time .... it became mostly an insurance practice not by choice.

Yes ... there are those boutique practices that cater to FFS patients. Good luck with that.

 

[oralcare123]

I have a saving but i plan to just use the loan to cover for tuition and living expense. I am thinking to open my office right out of school by using my saving if my skills are allowed. I am in the process to apply for military scholarship but i am not sure if i will get it. However, i will be closed to 40 when i finish dental school. My job is pretty stable with all the benefits including pension when i retire. How is the job market for ortho because i actually think about going that route if i can get in?

Thanks everyone for answering my questions.

Sounds like a recipe for a financial suicide to me, unless you really like dentistry

 

[2TH MVR]

That's like saying buying a BMW at an exclusive dealership with VIP treatment and buying a Ford at a local used car store with installment plans are identical just because at the end of the day both are cars and will get you from point A to B.

Your other points can also be countered, but then again older folks tend to have already made up their minds and are often stubborn (especially orthodontists in my experience). I will just say everyone is entitled to his/her opinions/experiences. 🙂

A better analogy is buying the same BMW (I prefer Audi) at an exclusive dealership and paying more than purchasing the same BMW at one of those internet, car dispenser companies that is becoming more and more common at a lower price.

My point is that patients generally do not see a difference in the TREATMENT with having insurance mandated fees or FFS. If you say there is a difference in quality .... that's on you. Graduated treatment quality based on mandated reimbursement from insurance company or 100% CASH.

Since I am so old 😉 .... I have been around to see the trends. 20 years ago .... consultants were always pushing for the boutique practices. Like I said previously .... I bought into this concept and was 100% FFS. Over the years .... this concept just wasn't viable .... at least in my area. I'm sure these boutique practices exist in the right markets.

Dentistry is no different than any other medically related industry. Most of medicine if not all is bound to insurance reimbursements. This trend has already been happening to dentistry and unless something changes ... will continue.

 

[TanMan]

I see the point you are trying to make with PPO offices, but I was specifically referring to 100% or close to 100% fee-for-service offices. By definition, patients at these locations are not insurance driven, and their heightened expectations are reasonable given the above average pricing of typical FFS offices. Even dealing with occasional "high maintenance" patients can be made less stressful with a strategic delegation.

Looking from another perspective, if these high income FFS patients are willing to pay for above average price for their dental care, what does that tell you about their priorities?

The question would be, could you get enough of these high paying patients to make a lot of money? You need to differentiate your brand of dentistry which tends to take longer (through advertising, technology, etc...) and costs more to ramp up your patient volume. If you're looking for this type of dentistry, it's not going to be "occasional high maintenance", you can expect it to be mostly high maintenance patients. High paying high maintenance patients are not a bad way to go if you can stomach those types of patients and they don't waste too much of your time. One thing you may be missing from the equation is expectation. If high income FFS patients are willing to go to you, what do they expect of you (to work miracles?).

That's like saying buying a BMW at an exclusive dealership with VIP treatment and buying a Ford at a local used car store with installment plans are identical just because at the end of the day both are cars and will get you from point A to B.

Your other points can also be countered, but then again older folks tend to have already made up their minds and are often stubborn (especially orthodontists in my experience). I will just say everyone is entitled to his/her opinions/experiences. 🙂

For a lot of people, dentistry is dentistry is dentistry. Trying to differentiate your brand of dentistry from everyone else's can be a tricky and time consuming ordeal. First question, how are you going to differentiate your BMW brand of dentistry from the other Ford brand of dentistry or better yet, differentiate your BMW brand of dentistry to another office's BMW brand of dentistry. It's hard when there's not a very objective, easy, or cheap way of doing it. I see all these practices who brag about going to so and so institute, having the latest in technology, etc... I still think your best bet is paying patients with low expectations.

*disclaimer, I don't like most BMW's, I'm only using studentdent00's example... I'd like a mclaren or lambo instead.

 

[321931]

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

Before you jump on this bandwagon, I recommend visiting dental town and posting this question. This forum maybe has a few dentists and most new students talking about the profession. Nothing wrong with their opinions, it more opinions can’t hurt from another forum especially a life changing decision. Go sit down with an acccountant and crunch the numbers to.
For the record I’m pretty much in disbelief at the opinions expressed here. Give up 4 years of 6 figure opportunity cost for debt and a questionable field in decline. Makes sense.

 

[TanMan]

Before you jump on this bandwagon, I recommend visiting dental town and posting this question. This forum maybe has a few dentists and most new students talking about the profession. Nothing wrong with their opinions, it more opinions can’t hurt from another forum especially a life changing decision. Go sit down with an acccountant and crunch the numbers to.
For the record I’m pretty much in disbelief at the opinions expressed here. Give up 4 years of 6 figure opportunity cost for debt and a questionable field in decline. Makes sense.

Hi,

I am currently making around 130 k annually. I also was accepted to dental school and supposed to start this August. However, I am worried about the high amount of debt (500k) plus the my lost income during the 4 years of school. Is it possible for me to pay this debt off with the current salary of dentist? I plan to work as an associate for a few year then will open a practice. I prefers to stay in CA if it is possible.

Can any practicing dentist or owners please give me some advise?

Thank you,

Dentaltown can be a good resource as long as you can wade through all the advertisements masquerading as posts.
That term "six-figure" is misleading. The lifestyle and income between 100,000 and 999,999 is huge. It's better to say you have a chance of upgrading from low 100's to 200, 300, 400, or even 500k+. I'm generally a pessimistic guy, but I still see a better future in dentistry than other counterparts such as pharmacy. Just be prepared to get your feet wet, your hands dirty, and work hard. Will you be megarich from solo practice dentistry alone? Hell no, but use the capital you make from dentistry to make more money than dentistry or open a chain. It's a game plan that a lot of dentists use (typically through rental properties or multiple practices). Think about the lifestyle you're living on right now with 130k... Probably affording some of the luxuries of life, but if you were to stop working or become disabled today (heaven forbid), would you be able to continue on that lifestyle w/o disability insurance? Especially in CA, 130k is nothing... goes away real quickly, especially in the Bay Area. Set yourself up for success, long term growth, and make every moment of your life count. If I can make this **** work, so can you.

 

[schmoob]

Dentaltown can be a good resource as long as you can wade through all the advertisements masquerading as posts.
That term "six-figure" is misleading. The lifestyle and income between 100,000 and 999,999 is huge. It's better to say you have a chance of upgrading from low 100's to 200, 300, 400, or even 500k+. I'm generally a pessimistic guy, but I still see a better future in dentistry than other counterparts such as pharmacy. Just be prepared to get your feet wet, your hands dirty, and work hard. Will you be megarich from solo practice dentistry alone? Hell no, but use the capital you make from dentistry to make more money than dentistry or open a chain. It's a game plan that a lot of dentists use (typically through rental properties or multiple practices). Think about the lifestyle you're living on right now with 130k... Probably affording some of the luxuries of life, but if you were to stop working or become disabled today (heaven forbid), would you be able to continue on that lifestyle w/o disability insurance? Especially in CA, 130k is nothing... goes away real quickly, especially in the Bay Area. Set yourself up for success, long term growth, and make every moment of your life count. If I can make this **** work, so can you.

If you had the option for a tuition-based specialty at your school, like peds or endo, who you take it knowing what you know now? Would you be willing to take on the extra debt because of the larger reinbursements?

 

[TanMan]

If you had the option for a tuition-based specialty at your school, like peds or endo, who you take it knowing what you know now? Would you be willing to take on the extra debt because of the larger reinbursements?

First, my advice for specialty, do something that you enjoy. If you enjoy nothing at all about dentistry, pick the easiest (but hardest to get into) on your body: ortho. I think peds is on the decline with the mass commoditization of pediatric dentistry, a lot more pediatric dentists opening up, more gp centered pediatric services employing peds, etc... Ortho is also being attacked on multiple fronts with SDC, GP invisalign providers, STO (6 month smiles), Peds/Ortho mills, etc... Endo is safer, but as the GP market tightens, so will endo. Days of the easy RCT's are long over. As GP's become more desperate to keep production inhouse, they'll either do it themselves, hire a specialist, or opt to EXT on otherwise restorable teeth to place implants.

Personally, I wouldn't want to specialize. I don't want to go through anymore school beyond dental school. It's at least 2 years of my life I wouldn't get back. Economically, I think OS/endo is more secure. Perio is regional heavy, I don't know much about them, but I know the perio isn't doing too well here. If I had to really choose at gunpoint, I'll take endo because I enjoy it, not because of the financial aspects. OS is too long.

 

[2TH MVR]

You can live on low 100K income, but it is not a lot relatively speaking. The real answer is why is the OP considering dentistry? If your 130K salary is the ceiling and there are no other options, and you love dentistry .... maybe dentistry is an option. If you are choosing to go into dentistry for $$$$$$$ .... then stop now. The lost income. DS debt plus interest. Start up costs for a practice. It's a lot of money that will cause stress for many years after you graduate.

Most dentists are not business prepared. For every Tanman there are hundreds that are not. You might say .... well .... I'll just work really hard and then I'll be successful. Doesn't work that way. Hard work with no business experience or plan means getting by, but not succeeding financially.

Again, if you want to help people and have your own practice .... consider dentistry. But don't do it for the money.

 

[321931]

You can live on low 100K income, but it is not a lot relatively speaking. The real answer is why is the OP considering dentistry? If your 130K salary is the ceiling and there are no other options, and you love dentistry .... maybe dentistry is an option. If you are choosing to go into dentistry for $$$$$$$ .... then stop now. The lost income. DS debt plus interest. Start up costs for a practice. It's a lot of money that will cause stress for many years after you graduate.

Most dentists are not business prepared. For every Tanman there are hundreds that are not. You might say .... well .... I'll just work really hard and then I'll be successful. Doesn't work that way. Hard work with no business experience or plan means getting by, but not succeeding financially.

Again, if you want to help people and have your own practice .... consider dentistry. But don't do it for the money.

+1. Tanman, I respect your accomplishments, but for you to literally tell someone that it's so doable....is so wrong.

For every one of "tanman" own 5 practices make 1 mil a year and pay off loans in a years time, there are 99 average dentists in "average income practices" that won't pay off their student loans for 10-30 years nor practice loan for 10 years. Just working til they hit 50-60 and hope they have a nest egg.

You and I both know it. I'm sure the other 6 dental offices in your 1 mile radius are just average dentists in debt and trying to get by. You did great, but that's not the norm and you know it.

 

[TanMan]

+1. Tanman, I respect your accomplishments, but for you to literally tell someone that it's so doable....is so wrong.

For every one of "tanman" own 5 practices make 1 mil a year and pay off loans in a years time, there are 99 average dentists in "average income practices" that won't pay off their student loans for 10-30 years nor practice loan for 10 years. Just working til they hit 50-60 and hope they have a nest egg.

You and I both know it. I'm sure the other 6 dental offices in your 1 mile radius are just average dentists in debt and trying to get by. You did great, but that's not the norm and you know it.

I can only speak about my area and the major cities around me. It's definitely doable because I don't know of a single dentist in my area (and in the closest major cities) that doesn't have less than a 1MM+ producing office (although admittedly, I am the newbie in my area, I don't know EVERY dentist in my area, and some of these offices have an associate). Even my friends who are relatively slower are producing 1MM+. The only dentist I know that totally failed is one that got hooked on coke. (PSA: Don't get hooked on coke, seems like this is the downfall of a lot of dentists) I don't think it's very uncommon as you make it out to be, nor do you have to be that "one in a hundred" to make it. I think you guys might be quick to dismiss that a million dollar practice is out of the reach of most people, but even in bigger cities such as San Antonio/Austin, it's not hard based on how common it is to see a million dollar practice.

I wouldn't know the intricate details about how people manage their money and their finances, so I wouldn't know if they were drowning in debt even with a large income stream, or whether they are investing/paying off their loans. I can infer that they are doing well since my friends/colleagues do tend to share trends, production numbers/targets and they don't live in a shack. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum - not going to preach doom and gloom, but moreso the optimistic aspect of owning a practice.

There's one thing for sure though, being an associate for the rest of life may not maximize your income potential, as some of my classmates have fallen into the lifetime associate trap. The golden age of dentistry is over, but it's not a complete disaster scenario that some people will make it out to be unless you decide to work in a supersaturated area thinking that the laws of supply and demand don't apply to you because you have a DMD/DDS. I will defer to my more experienced colleagues such as @2TH MVR and @charlestweed regarding their experiences and conclusions as they would have a better sampling of practices over time (from an orthodontic perspective). I've only been a practice owner for almost 5 years, so I may still have the ideals and optimism of a newly graduated dental student.

To imply that I'm misleading a generation of future colleagues in itself is misleading. Can a future colleague have a solo 3MM+ practice (or more)? Definitely, I'm not going to discount it and say it is impossible, but it is very hard. On the flip side, can our colleagues have million dollar practices? I'm confident that a large number of our colleagues/future colleagues can do it, because that's not as hard. This all depends on the characteristics and personality of each person. I stand by the ideal that if you know how to treat your patients well (and with respect when it is due/reciprocated), willing to work hard, and have some business common sense, that you'll break the million dollar barrier easily.

 

[ysrebob]

All markets are local and we only can know our own areas. In my area, which is not metro and NOT saturated, well-established solo dental offices fall into one of two categories:
- large with $1-1.2M gross, large support staff, overhead over 70% --> owner DDS is probably clearing $300K +/- 100K
- small $700K gross, small staff, overhead 60% or less --> owner DDS is probably clearing $250K +/- 50K but with a lot less staff headaches

Would suspect, though, that this is pretty typical of non-saturated non-metro ("good") areas across the USA. I can think of one or two GPs in the whole area around me (out of more than 50 GPs) who are probably clearing far more than the numbers above, due to being hungry, aggressive, ambitious, and natural-born entrepreneurs and empire builders. Dentists around here are solidly upper middle class but not rich (unless after many years of investing in real estate on the side). First few years out of school people are only netting some fraction of the above (either as associates or while paying off practice loans).

SO from where I sit, for somebody to leave a low 6-figure job, take the enormous opportunity cost of 4 years out of the workforce + 4 years tuition + large practice loan... probably DOES NOT make great financial sense. Makes sense if you love teeth (a little hard for me to comprehend), or want to be a small business owner in a white collar profession (which I can definitely comprehend: an excellent rationale, still FAR more possible in dentistry than in most fields). But not as a purely financial decision.

 

[2TH MVR]

The 1st 15 yrs of private practice (ortho).... my practice was clearing well over 1 million in collections and production....every year. The latter part of my private practice years ... my practice collections and revenue decreased 40-50%. The reasons have been well documented here on SDN. New economy after recession, technology (aligners), saturation (I practice in a large metro area), insurance, Corp offices, and probably the fact that as one gets older .... you have less drive than the optimistic, full of energy new dentists like @TanMan et al.

During those so called golden years .... I had a pretty good idea how my GP referral colleagues were doing. Most of them were not clearing 1 million in production. One or two were, but the rest .... no. Interestingly the 1 or 2 GPs making over 1 mil in production had associates and were super GPs. They did everything and referred very little out of their offices. They were just motivated. The other GPs that I knew had small offices. Small staffs. Small overhead, but they were content seeing a patient every hour. One chair. One patient.

So, as @TanMan says. It really depends on the location and your business plan. In my experience .... most dentists are not business people.
As for @TanMan .... it is good to see a very successful dentist even if he may be an outlier compared to the average dentist. Predents, new dentists should take @TanMan's accomplishments as a reachable goal, but not one that most, average dentists will reach just by having a DDS or DMD behind your name.

 

[TanMan]

All markets are local and we only can know our own areas. In my area, which is not metro and NOT saturated, well-established solo dental offices fall into one of two categories:
- large with $1-1.2M gross, large support staff, overhead over 70% --> owner DDS is probably clearing $300K +/- 100K
- small $700K gross, small staff, overhead 60% or less --> owner DDS is probably clearing $250K +/- 50K but with a lot less staff headaches

Would suspect, though, that this is pretty typical of non-saturated non-metro ("good") areas across the USA. I can think of one or two GPs in the whole area around me (out of more than 50 GPs) who are probably clearing far more than the numbers above, due to being hungry, aggressive, ambitious, and natural-born entrepreneurs and empire builders. Dentists around here are solidly upper middle class but not rich (unless after many years of investing in real estate on the side). First few years out of school people are only netting some fraction of the above (either as associates or while paying off practice loans).

SO from where I sit, for somebody to leave a low 6-figure job, take the enormous opportunity cost of 4 years out of the workforce + 4 years tuition + large practice loan... probably DOES NOT make great financial sense. Makes sense if you love teeth (a little hard for me to comprehend), or want to be a small business owner in a white collar profession (which I can definitely comprehend: an excellent rationale, still FAR more possible in dentistry than in most fields). But not as a purely financial decision.

That is true.... I did not consider the OP's current job satisfaction. If you like your current job, live a comfortable lifestyle, you are definitely taking a risk with going into dentistry. I think our discussions have been primarily on the financial aspect. Unfortunately, some of my colleagues absolutely hate their job and you won't really know if you love dentistry until you're actually in the battlefield (clinical aspects). If we were to take how you feel about your current profession, try dentistry if you hate your current job and want to move up in lifestyle. However, you might hate dentistry even more... you just don't know because shadowing/volunteering/assisting is totally different than being the dentist.

The 1st 15 yrs of private practice (ortho).... my practice was clearing well over 1 million in collections and production....every year. The latter part of my private practice years ... my practice collections and revenue decreased 40-50%. The reasons have been well documented here on SDN. New economy after recession, technology (aligners), saturation (I practice in a large metro area), insurance, Corp offices, and probably the fact that as one gets older .... you have less drive than the optimistic, full of energy new dentists like @TanMan et al.

During those so called golden years .... I had a pretty good idea how my GP referral colleagues were doing. Most of them were not clearing 1 million in production. One or two were, but the rest .... no. Interestingly the 1 or 2 GPs making over 1 mil in production had associates and were super GPs. They did everything and referred very little out of their offices. They were just motivated. The other GPs that I knew had small offices. Small staffs. Small overhead, but they were content seeing a patient every hour. One chair. One patient.

So, as @TanMan says. It really depends on the location and your business plan. In my experience .... most dentists are not business people.
As for @TanMan .... it is good to see a very successful dentist even if he may be an outlier compared to the average dentist. Predents, new dentists should take @TanMan's accomplishments as a reachable goal, but not one that most, average dentists will reach just by having a DDS or DMD behind your name.

I'd definitely take your word for it since you have a lot more experience. He has a larger sample size since he's in a larger metro area, has been practicing a lot longer, and a more accurate representation of dentistry in places where younger dentists would want to live. The only question I would want to ask those that have smaller offices and see a few patients an hour would be, is it by choice or by market supply/demand. I get the impression that a lot of my colleagues are relatively lazier and want that 1-2 patients an hour, but I wonder if it's because of the stress of seeing more patients, they don't have enough patients, or they don't want to take on more patients. If the reason that they are seeing 1-2 patients an hour is by choice, then that is on the dentist's preferences, if it is because of market supply/demand, then careful analysis and flexibility in opening an office becomes a lot more critical to success.

 

[321931]

All markets are local and we only can know our own areas. In my area, which is not metro and NOT saturated, well-established solo dental offices fall into one of two categories:
- large with $1-1.2M gross, large support staff, overhead over 70% --> owner DDS is probably clearing $300K +/- 100K
- small $700K gross, small staff, overhead 60% or less --> owner DDS is probably clearing $250K +/- 50K but with a lot less staff headaches

Would suspect, though, that this is pretty typical of non-saturated non-metro ("good") areas across the USA. I can think of one or two GPs in the whole area around me (out of more than 50 GPs) who are probably clearing far more than the numbers above, due to being hungry, aggressive, ambitious, and natural-born entrepreneurs and empire builders. Dentists around here are solidly upper middle class but not rich (unless after many years of investing in real estate on the side). First few years out of school people are only netting some fraction of the above (either as associates or while paying off practice loans).

SO from where I sit, for somebody to leave a low 6-figure job, take the enormous opportunity cost of 4 years out of the workforce + 4 years tuition + large practice loan... probably DOES NOT make great financial sense. Makes sense if you love teeth (a little hard for me to comprehend), or want to be a small business owner in a white collar profession (which I can definitely comprehend: an excellent rationale, still FAR more possible in dentistry than in most fields). But not as a purely financial decision.

Hey look a reasonable comment passing by. I'm sure you smart guys can understand that when people go to dental school they are top % of wherever they come from. But when you have a bunch of smart people together, there are the top 10%, the middle 50 and the bottom 10% even though you guys are all smart. Congrats Tan you are the top 10 if not 1%, but there are alot of dentists who will be the middle 50/bottom 10 that will just clear 250 give or take on a small 700-1mil practice.

 

[kingme23]

Hey look a reasonable comment passing by. I'm sure you smart guys can understand that when people go to dental school they are top % of wherever they come from. But when you have a bunch of smart people together, there are the top 10%, the middle 50 and the bottom 10% even though you guys are all smart. Congrats Tan you are the top 10 if not 1%, but there are alot of dentists who will be the middle 50/bottom 10 that will just clear 250 give or take on a small 700-1mil practice.

I think what hasn’t been discussed yet is, the ambitious and hardworking people who are reading this thread will ideally not be in those bottom percentiles. Everybody with a D.D.S./DMD is smart. But let’s be honest, dentists aren’t always the most ambitious bunch and not everybody wants to hustle when they begin practice. Many docs don’t place earnings as a #1 priority, they are okay with having a small practice and only seeing a couple patients every hour. Many are held up by location too, and won’t leave their major metro supersaturated city.

I 1000% agree not everybody is going to be a Tanman. But I don’t think it’s a matter of luck who ends up being more successful than the average doc. Location plays a role. People skills. Doing your research on the business end and hearing from those who have accomplished what you hope to. There is a small portion of people studying and dedicating the time to learn this stuff - those will be the ones who will reap the rewards.

 

[DDS9994]

I think what hasn’t been discussed yet is, the ambitious and hardworking people who are reading this thread will ideally not be in those bottom percentiles. Everybody with a D.D.S./DMD is smart. But let’s be honest, dentists aren’t always the most ambitious bunch and not everybody wants to hustle when they begin practice. Many docs don’t place earnings as a #1 priority, they are okay with having a small practice and only seeing a couple patients every hour. Many are held up by location too, and won’t leave their major metro supersaturated city.

I 1000% agree not everybody is going to be a Tanman. But I don’t think it’s a matter of luck who ends up being more successful than the average doc. Location plays a role. People skills. Doing your research on the business end and hearing from those who have accomplished what you hope to. There is a small portion of people studying and dedicating the time to learn this stuff - those will be the ones who will reap the rewards.

As you said " small portion of people staying and dedicating the time to learn this stuff...." does this guy want to bet his six figure salary plus an additional 500K in loans that he is gonna be part of that small portion of people? This guy has been an employee does he know weather he is ready to become small business owner and all the BS that comes with it? I don't know about you but that is a hell of a gamble.

 

[kingme23]

As you said " small portion of people staying and dedicating the time to learn this stuff...." does this guy want to bet his six figure salary plus an additional 500K in loans that he is gonna be part of that small portion of people? This guy has been an employee does he know weather he is ready to become small business owner and all the BS that comes with it? I don't know about you but that is a hell of a gamble.

Only he can answer that. But having said what I did in my last post, my answer to whether he should do this would be NO because of one statement he made: “I prefer to stay in California”

 

[DDS9994]

Only he can answer that. But having said what I did in my last post, my answer to whether he should do this would be NO because of one statement he made: “I prefer to stay in California”

LOL, I missed that part, I would add " HELL NO!!" Not to mention he stated there is a pension, I don't think people realize the real dollar value of a pension in addition to normal retirement/nonretirement investment vehicles. Possibly retiring in your 50 s with a pension and other things vs. starting to practice at 40 a million or so behind the 8 ball? You better be one hell of a businessman with some serious business acumen.

 

[Saddleshoes]

LOL, I missed that part, I would add " HELL NO!!" Not to mention he stated there is a pension, I don't think people realize the real dollar value of a pension in addition to normal retirement/nonretirement investment vehicles. Possibly retiring in your 50 s with a pension and other things vs. starting to practice at 40 a million or so behind the 8 ball? You better be one hell of a businessman with some serious business acumen.

True!!!
I did some figuring a few years back and realized a modest state pension in my area was like having just over 1 Million in an IRA at age 55!

 

[ysrebob]

Yes. You need to save a lot extra when you’re self-funding your own retirement.

Also, when you’re a practice owner, enjoy paying for 100% of your own health insurance (minimim legal ACA Bronze coverage for a healthy family of three is currently over $1,700 PER MONTH in my area, with a $12,500 deductible... and you won’t qualify for any federal subsidies). Also delight in paying 100% of your own social security and medicare taxes (about 13% additional tax on the first 125k or so of your income), etc etc etc. Being self-employed is expensive.

 

[TanMan]

Yes. You need to save a lot extra when you’re self-funding your own retirement.

Also, when you’re a practice owner, enjoy paying for 100% of your own health insurance (minimim legal ACA Bronze coverage for a healthy family of three is currently over $1,700 PER MONTH in my area, with a $12,500 deductible... and you won’t qualify for any federal subsidies). Also delight in paying 100% of your own social security and medicare taxes (about 13% additional tax on the first 125k or so of your income), etc etc etc. Being self-employed is expensive.

LOL, if you're strong and healthy and don't want to get conned into having to buy health insurance that's mostly worthless, join a healthcare sharing ministry. Pay 45USD per month, avoid IRS penalties.

If it's ok to share the link... this is what I use: Christian Healthcare Ministries: Home . You don't have to be Christian to join, just to avoid the penalty.

Also, I find it cheaper to negotiate with hospitals and surgeons directly for any work needed. When they were first quoting me prices, I told them, can you do better if I pay cash? I ended up getting 75% off from the hospital by paying in full ahead of time, got better service (because it was a nice hospital), and a quality surgeon who bumped us up ahead of the line (and gave us 50% off the surgery after we said we were cash patients). I'm not going to name the surgeon or hospital, since I don't want a bunch of people contacting them for discounted services. It's a suggestion I would make to others though. Offer to pay cash and see how much lower they can go.

 

[321931]

LOL, I missed that part, I would add " HELL NO!!" Not to mention he stated there is a pension, I don't think people realize the real dollar value of a pension in addition to normal retirement/nonretirement investment vehicles. Possibly retiring in your 50 s with a pension and other things vs. starting to practice at 40 a million or so behind the 8 ball? You better be one hell of a businessman with some serious business acumen.

Yeah I can understand the argument for going to school with high def because the potential is there to make money but I personally don’t buy into it.

What I don’t understand are the people on here encouraging someone to pursue their dreams when there is a pension on the table with 6 figure income... to switch into dentistry. I guess do it if you “love it.”

 

[charlestweed]

LOL, if you're strong and healthy and don't want to get conned into having to buy health insurance that's mostly worthless, join a healthcare sharing ministry. Pay 45USD per month, avoid IRS penalties.

If it's ok to share the link... this is what I use: Christian Healthcare Ministries: Home . You don't have to be Christian to join, just to avoid the penalty.

I wish I can buy a cheap plan like you. I currently pay $1300/month for a PPO plan for my family of 4 because I don't want to be a burden for any of my family members if something happens to me. You can get cancer at any age. My sister, who is a GP, even goes further by purchasing a long term care policy on top of her current healthcare plan. I guess when people make a lot of money, they start worrying about everything and start buying a bunch of insurances to make sure that if something happens to them, they and their love ones won't lose the lifestyle that they currently enjoy.

Also, I find it cheaper to negotiate with hospitals and surgeons directly for any work needed. When they were first quoting me prices, I told them, can you do better if I pay cash? I ended up getting 75% off from the hospital by paying in full ahead of time, got better service (because it was a nice hospital), and a quality surgeon who bumped us up ahead of the line (and gave us 50% off the surgery after we said we were cash patients). I'm not going to name the surgeon or hospital, since I don't want a bunch of people contacting them for discounted services. It's a suggestion I would make to others though. Offer to pay cash and see how much lower they can go.

About half of my patients don't have insurance and they pay cash. Many of them work at places that don't offer them medical/dental insurance such as nail salons, restaurants, mowing grasses etc. The beauty of ortho is the treatments usually require 18-24 months to complete and therefore, we can stretch out the payments to 18-24 month period. We can bypass the insurance companies by offering affordable interest free payment plan directly to our patients. It's like buying an expensive iphone X for $1000 and only need to pay $50 per month....and that's how everybody can afford to have such new fancy phone every 2-3 years.

A lot of my patients have asked me if I offer any discount when they pay the tx in full, instead of making monthly payments. I tell them no. I actually want the patients to make monthly payments instead of paying in full because I want to have the steady monthly income that I currently enjoy. Starting a new ortho case is like getting a client to sign a new gym membership contract. When there are slow months (Sept-Dec) with fewer starts and new patients consultations, my office can still collect the same amount of monthly payments from our active patients....no significant drop in income during those months. There is no drop in income when I close my office for vacation.