Go DO or retry for MD?

[madmike 20]

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So I've been accepted to multiple DO schools but so far no MD schools (wait listed at 2 MD). I just finished my Biology degree at my state school and graduated with a 3.96 cGPA and 4.0 sGPA during the last 4 years at my state school BUT I went to a private school my first year of college for sports and did terrible. Therefore, my cGPA is a 3.52 and my sGPA is a 3.79. I also scored a 33 on the MCAT (8V, 11P, 14B). I only applied to a few MD schools last year and a bunch of DO schools since I really liked the DO schools but at the time I didn't realize how strong the bias against DOs really was when it comes to applying to the more "reputable" ACGME residencies.

I'm looking at reapply with these stats (3.52 cGPA 3.79 sGPA and 33 MCAT) to only MD schools since I am wanting to land a more competitive residency that typically isn't very DO friendly. Basically I just want to know if my numbers are somewhat competitive for mid to low tier MD schools and if so which schools would be good to apply to. I have just become a Tennessee resident and UT will be one of my top choices if I reapply.

 

[lmn]

Number wise your competitive for MD, not sure about the rest of your app. Most would say you have to decide if you want to surely become a doctor, or if you're willing to risk not being able to go to med school at all (MD or DO) if you decide to skip the DO acceptances and try your luck for MD. Even if your competitive, it doesn't mean you will necessarily make it. You should also really read more about the ability for DO's to match, and how the new changes to match for DO's will affect overall matching.

 

[madmike 20]

Number wise your competitive for MD, not sure about the rest of your app. Most would say you have to decide if you want to surely become a doctor, or if you're willing to risk not being able to go to med school at all (MD or DO) if you decide to skip the DO acceptances and try your luck for MD. Even if your competitive, it doesn't mean you will necessarily make it. You should also really read more about the ability for DO's to match, and how the new changes to match for DO's will affect overall matching.

the reason that i'm thinking about reapplying straight MD and very broadly is because of the fact that i've been reading up on the merger and how this will affect the DOs and the AOA. the merger "sounded" like a great thing at first for the DOs but now so many DOs are protesting against it and listing all the negatives that will come from the merger for the DOs. i know reapplying MD is a risk but i believe that the risk of reapplying MD will be less than the risk of me going DO and landing the residency of my choice.

my ECs are solid like working in a healthcare setting (PTA) for 2 1/2 years, variety of volunteer experiences, biology tutor and lab instructor for a year, multiple biology dept awards, semester of research in RA, and average amount of shadowing experience and some more that i can't think of right now. so nothing "phenomenal" but solid.

i just want as many options open for me as possible when i apply to residencies and i know that going DO will close the doors of many of those "reputable/competitive" residencies. i believe the bias that these more competitive ACGME residencies hold against DOs is absolutely ridiculous but if you want into their program you have to play their game. i absolutely love the DO school that i've picked as my top choice but i also know that i'll have to jump several hurdles such as rocking the USMLE and COMLEX both, being the top in my class, doing lots of away rotations at places (some of which i'll have to pay to just rotate at) that i'm interested in, and many other things. as a DO wanting to land a competitive ACGME residency i have to go above and beyond that of what the average MD will have to do for the same spot. i'm not worried about the bias as a physician or the letters next to my name whatsoever, it's all about landing the residency that i want and going DO is nothing more than an uphill struggle. it's hard enough as an MD, but as a DO it's even more difficult to get that residency spot. again, i'm not talking about a residency spot at some average ACGME medicine or peds residency but a more competitive/reputable residency program.

any advice would be greatly appreciated...thanks

 

[csx]

MD all the way. You're stats are in par with MD schools. Given your rationale against attending DO, you'd be selling yourself short bigtime. That said, you know what your biggest mistake was...you said it yourself: " I only applied to a few MD schools last year." Cast your net larger and to the appropriate schools given your score and you'll get some love.

 

[Goro]

Please reapply to the MD schools because my colleagues at the DO schools would rather have someone who actually wants attend there and be a doctor, not a MD wannabe.

And just because you have the MD degree doesn't mean that you can blithely waltz into a Peds Neurology residency.

So I've been accepted to multiple DO schools but so far no MD schools (wait listed at 2 MD). I just finished my Biology degree at my state school and graduated with a 3.96 cGPA and 4.0 sGPA during the last 4 years at my state school BUT I went to a private school my first year of college for sports and did terrible. Therefore, my cGPA is a 3.52 and my sGPA is a 3.79. I also scored a 33 on the MCAT (8V, 11P, 14B). I only applied to a few MD schools last year and a bunch of DO schools since I really liked the DO schools but at the time I didn't realize how strong the bias against DOs really was when it comes to applying to the more "reputable" ACGME residencies.

I'm looking at reapply with these stats (3.52 cGPA 3.79 sGPA and 33 MCAT) to only MD schools since I am wanting to land a more competitive residency that typically isn't very DO friendly. Basically I just want to know if my numbers are somewhat competitive for mid to low tier MD schools and if so which schools would be good to apply to. I have just become a Tennessee resident and UT will be one of my top choices if I reapply.

 

[madmike 20]

Please reapply to the MD schools because my colleagues at the DO schools would rather have someone who actually wants attend there and be a doctor, not a MD wannabe.

And just because you have the MD degree doesn't mean that you can blithely waltz into a Peds Neurology residency.

really Goro? i'm a big fan of DO schools and if i were wanting to go IM or peds or anything else that wasn't very tough for DOs to land i'd be going DO...MD wannabe? i'm trying to do what's going to give me the best opportunity to land the residencies that i want. i don't give a s*** about the two letters next to my name but if that's the game i have to play to give me the best chances to land the type of residency that i want then i might have to play by those rules. you say a lot of good stuff out there Goro but that was a bit of a low blow and straight up unnecessary.

 

[madmike 20]

MD all the way. You're stats are in par with MD schools. Given your rationale against attending DO, you'd be selling yourself short bigtime. That said, you know what your biggest mistake was...you said it yourself: " I only applied to a few MD schools last year." Cast your net larger and to the appropriate schools given your score and you'll get some love.

what would be some of the more "appropriate" schools you'd suggest applying to with my stats?...i'm a TN resident now therefore i'll be applying to UT for sure which i think my stats are competitive for but any others? preferably private MD schools since the in-state out-of-state issue doesn't play a factor or even state schools that are out-of-state friendly

 

[Goro]

My grads are doing fine in getting in Pathology, neurology, anaesthiology, orthopedics and more. Yes, they have to try a little harder, but they get where they want to go.

The AOA/ACGME merger should indeed make this easier. I suspect it's the true believers on the DO side who are against the merger.

really Goro? i'm a big fan of DO schools and if i were wanting to go IM or peds or anything else that wasn't very tough for DOs to land i'd be going DO...MD wannabe? i'm trying to do what's going to give me the best opportunity to land the residencies that i want. i don't give a s*** about the two letters next to my name but if that's the game i have to play to give me the best chances to land the type of residency that i want then i might have to play by those rules. you say a lot of good stuff out there Goro but that was a bit of a low blow and straight up unnecessary.

 

[lmn]

really Goro? i'm a big fan of DO schools and if i were wanting to go IM or peds or anything else that wasn't very tough for DOs to land i'd be going DO...MD wannabe? i'm trying to do what's going to give me the best opportunity to land the residencies that i want. i don't give a s*** about the two letters next to my name but if that's the game i have to play to give me the best chances to land the type of residency that i want then i might have to play by those rules. you say a lot of good stuff out there Goro but that was a bit of a low blow and straight up unnecessary.

He isn't low blowing, you seem to have just picked up the anti-DO opinion and believe it to be true. Have you looked at match lists for DO schools? Plenty of DO students match into competitive specialties and great programs, ya they have to work hard and do good research and have great step 1's, but you would have to do the exact same at an MD program. You either have what it takes to make it to those competitive residencies or you don't, if you wouldn't make it at the DO program, you wouldn't make it at the MD program. If you are talking about the most competitive residency positions for the most competitive residencies, you have probably already excluded yourself by not being an extraordinary person who aced all their classes, the MCAT, has great research background, etc. It isn't probably that an average med student is likely to absolutely kill the step 1's, clinical grading, away rotations, and have done awesome research to get that most rare match.

 

[madmike 20]

He isn't low blowing, you seem to have just picked up the anti-DO opinion and believe it to be true. Have you looked at match lists for DO schools? Plenty of DO students match into competitive specialties and great programs, ya they have to work hard and do good research and have great step 1's, but you would have to do the exact same at an MD program. You either have what it takes to make it to those competitive residencies or you don't, if you wouldn't make it at the DO program, you wouldn't make it at the MD program. If you are talking about the most competitive residency positions for the most competitive residencies, you have probably already excluded yourself by not being an extraordinary person who aced all their classes, the MCAT, has great research background, etc. It isn't probably that an average med student is likely to absolutely kill the step 1's, clinical grading, away rotations, and have done awesome research to get that most rare match.

well it's just one of my friends from a DO school scored in the 99th percentile on the USMLE steps 1 and 2 and didn't match anywhere for neurosurgery (had a phenomenal app with tons of neuro research) and told me to go MD since he wish he did. he wished he went MD because those residencies held the fact that he was a DO against him. even one of the residency programs told him why are you even bothering trying to come here as a DO.

i've even talked to a DO at a top 5 peds residency program (only DO there in the program) and she said she loves the DO schools and had a great education but she said she got extremely lucky getting that spot and had to go above and beyond what the other MD residents had to do. even she said to go MD if i can. those are just two examples but i've even had practicing DOs tell me to go MD if i can. so saying you wouldn't make it as a MD if you can't make it as a DO is somewhat a ridiculous statement.

btw who said i'm going to be an "average" med student? i graduated from a very respectable school that has a top ranked medical school (obviously couldn't get in) with a 3.96 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA (major: cellular and molecular biology minor: chemistry) with research in autoimmunity at Northwestern medical school. my GPA isn't too stellar because i went away to play sports my first year of college (wasn't premed at the time) and didn't do that well, which i obviously had to include in my app. i've aced all my pre-med classes and scored a 33 on the MCAT which is respectable for most programs. yes my current stats are average at best if not on the lower side for MD schools (due to my first year of college) but how will that dictate how i do in medical school?

 

[lmn]

well it's just one of my friends from a DO school scored in the 99th percentile on the USMLE steps 1 and 2 and didn't match anywhere for neurosurgery (had a phenomenal app with tons of neuro research) and told me to go MD since he wish he did. he wished he went MD because those residencies held the fact that he was a DO against him. even one of the residency programs told him why are you even bothering trying to come here as a DO.

i've even talked to a DO at a top 5 peds residency program (only DO there in the program) and she said she loves the DO schools and had a great education but she said she got extremely lucky getting that spot and had to go above and beyond what the other MD residents had to do. even she said to go MD if i can. those are just two examples but i've even had practicing DOs tell me to go MD if i can. so saying you wouldn't make it as a MD if you can't make it as a DO is somewhat a ridiculous statement.

btw who said i'm going to be an "average" med student? i graduated from a very respectable school that has a top ranked medical school (obviously couldn't get in) with a 3.96 cGPA, 4.0 sGPA (major: cellular and molecular biology minor: chemistry) with research in autoimmunity at Northwestern medical school. my GPA isn't too stellar because i went away to play sports my first year of college (wasn't premed at the time) and didn't do that well, which i obviously had to include in my app. i've aced all my pre-med classes and scored a 33 on the MCAT which is respectable for most programs. yes my current stats are average at best if not on the lower side for MD schools (due to my first year of college) but how will that dictate how i do in medical school?

You sound like you made up your mind, being DO may make it harder, but it is hardly impossible. As long as you are willing and ok with the chance (however small that it may be) that you may not get MD and no longer have DO and have to change plans, go for it then. If you can get an MD acceptance and perform strongly in med school than you'll have an easier path to those specialties (if you are still interested in them by the time you finish school).

I am not saying you are a poor student, but med schools accept the cream of the crop from all across the country and world, read the allo forum for how common it is to be the best at your university just to find yourself average, or even in the lower 50% of your class at med school. Now when you apply to the most competitive specialties, multiply that by all of the schools and med students going after those positions in the country. It's extremely unlikely for you to the top dog, even if you were in undergrad, sure be confident in yourself, but you'll have a rude awakening if you go into med school believing you are the smartest person in the room all the time.

 

[csx]

what would be some of the more "appropriate" schools you'd suggest applying to with my stats?...i'm a TN resident now therefore i'll be applying to UT for sure which i think my stats are competitive for but any others? preferably private MD schools since the in-state out-of-state issue doesn't play a factor or even state schools that are out-of-state friendly

Do not wait, buy the MSAR for ~$20 on the AAMC website. Apply to the school whose grades are within your range. And apply to ~15 MD schools or more. With out the MSAR you'd be applying to some schools out of your reach. That 20 bucks will be worth it.

 

[ciestar]

really Goro? i'm a big fan of DO schools and if i were wanting to go IM or peds or anything else that wasn't very tough for DOs to land i'd be going DO...MD wannabe? i'm trying to do what's going to give me the best opportunity to land the residencies that i want. i don't give a s*** about the two letters next to my name but if that's the game i have to play to give me the best chances to land the type of residency that i want then i might have to play by those rules. you say a lot of good stuff out there Goro but that was a bit of a low blow and straight up unnecessary.

To be fair, you did make it seem like DO was just a backup plan and you probably shouldn't have applied DO if you don't really think it's to your benefit. That's where I think the MD wannabe comment comes from, you just come off as you applied DO as a backup plan.

 

[madmike 20]

To be fair, you did make it seem like DO was just a backup plan and you probably shouldn't have applied DO if you don't really think it's to your benefit. That's where I think the MD wannabe comment comes from, you just come off as you applied DO as a backup plan.

i didn't apply DO as a back-up at first...it wasn't until i did more research after i already applied did i realize how strong the bias "can be" at some of the residencies. i applied to like 8 DO and 3 MD schools with favoring DO because i was one of those applicants who bought into the whole "osteopathic philosophy" but then soon realized that the difference between an MD and DO school is very minimal, so minimal that there really is no difference besides for OMM. tbh i liked the DO schools more than the MD schools. the DO schools facilities were all state-of-the-art, the faculty were all very nice and interested in teaching rather than research, and i believe it "fit" me more BUT it scares me a bit when it comes time to applying for residencies which is why i'm considering reapplying and going MD because i do want to get into a field of medicine that DOs typically go into and landing a solid residency is very difficult for DOs (MDs as well). i like the MD schools that i interviewed at but i liked the DO schools more. honestly i think most people would if they actually went to the DO schools and checked them out.

 

[osckey]

i didn't apply DO as a back-up at first...it wasn't until i did more research after i already applied did i realize how strong the bias "can be" at some of the residencies. i applied to like 8 DO and 3 MD schools with favoring DO because i was one of those applicants who bought into the whole "osteopathic philosophy" but then soon realized that the difference between an MD and DO school is very minimal, so minimal that there really is no difference besides for OMM. tbh i liked the DO schools more than the MD schools. the DO schools facilities were all state-of-the-art, the faculty were all very nice and interested in teaching rather than research, and i believe it "fit" me more BUT it scares me a bit when it comes time to applying for residencies which is why i'm considering reapplying and going MD because i do want to get into a field of medicine that DOs typically go into and landing a solid residency is very difficult for DOs (MDs as well). i like the MD schools that i interviewed at but i liked the DO schools more. honestly i think most people would if they actually went to the DO schools and checked them out.

You to need to seriosuly take your DO acceptance with humility and gratefulness and be happy. The whole argument of bias and stigma between DO and MD, according to my time shadowing physicians of both philosophies of medicine, is largely a machination of the neurotic pre med mind.

A physician is a physician. All statements that say otherwise are deviations from the truth and the reality of the working relationship between allopathic and osteopathic physicians.

 

[madmike 20]

You to need to seriosuly take your DO acceptance with humility and gratefulness and be happy. The whole argument of bias and stigma between DO and MD, according to my time shadowing physicians of both philosophies of medicine, is largely a machination of the neurotic pre med mind.

A physician is a physician. All statements that say otherwise are deviations from the truth and the reality of the working relationship between allopathic and osteopathic physicians.

my situation has nothing to do with bias between practicing MDs and DOs (which i have no concern about), it's about landing a residency program that is very favorable to MDs and not so much DOs. that's the bias i'm talking about and why i'm considering going MD rather than DO.

 

[osckey]

my situation has nothing to do with bias between practicing MDs and DOs (which i have no concern about), it's about landing a residency program that is very favorable to MDs and not so much DOs. that's the bias i'm talking about and why i'm considering going MD rather than DO.

I understand that, but I meant to underline how little of a difference it makes. Yes, you were told by your friend of his unfortunate experience. However, and a very big however, you need to look at the data. You will find that, if you do well academically and manage your ECs well during your stay in medical school, doors will open regarding your future no matter the philosophy of the school you came from.

You're trying to deal in a currency of "what ifs" when you have certainties in the bank. You have no idea what specialties will catch your eye when in medical school. Your clinical rotations will do a good job of showing what you like and what you are good at doing.

Let's assume you do choose a rather competitive specialty after all of that and you are rejected from a residency based solely on the fact that you are a DO. How badly do you want to be involved in a residency program that shows clear bias against individuals? Do you believe such a program would even have your best interests in mind if you were accepted? Can you imagine the kind of cynicism that must be plaguing that program if there is enough of it to interfere with their admissions process?

Please understand that I am being as objective as possible here. So far I know that you are happy with the DO philosophy, you are happy with the facilities and you are happy with the faculty. On the other hand, your credentials are solid and I believe that the main reason you don't currently find yourself with an MD acceptance is that you don't seem to have applied broadly enough. Applying again means waiting another year and delaying yourself.

Are you willing to delay yourself? Do you feel that you can make the gap year worth it? I can imagine that saying "no" to acceptances is an extremely difficult thing to do.

At the end of the day, I am rooting for you. I just want to challenge you to give this more thought. Look at the match rates for DO and MD.

 

[csx]

Like I said, go MD, much wiser.

 

[lmn]

You to need to seriosuly take your DO acceptance with humility and gratefulness and be happy. The whole argument of bias and stigma between DO and MD, according to my time shadowing physicians of both philosophies of medicine, is largely a machination of the neurotic pre med mind.

A physician is a physician. All statements that say otherwise are deviations from the truth and the reality of the working relationship between allopathic and osteopathic physicians.

He doesn't have to do this at all, nor should he have to. In fact, it is clear that DO isn't the correct path for him due to a somewhat increased challenge for what he projects his career path to be as well as his discomfort with becoming a DO, you shouldn't throw yourself into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and 4+ years of your life for something you aren't completely comfortable with. I really believe he should decline his DO options now, it isn't good for him and wouldn't be good for his school and class composition. OP is clearly locked on an MD or bust path, so he needs to prep his AAMC app and get it in and start his process of trying to get into an MD program.

Honestly I'm much happier that s/he decided DO wasn't for them before matriculating, it would be much worse overall for all parties if s/he found that out after matriculating.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

my situation has nothing to do with bias between practicing MDs and DOs (which i have no concern about), it's about landing a residency program that is very favorable to MDs and not so much DOs. that's the bias i'm talking about and why i'm considering going MD rather than DO.

What specialty are you talking about, if you don't mind me asking? I agree with your decision, I'm just curious to see what specialty you are talking about.

 

[Jamie561]

You to need to seriosuly take your DO acceptance with humility and gratefulness and be happy. The whole argument of bias and stigma between DO and MD, according to my time shadowing physicians of both philosophies of medicine, is largely a machination of the neurotic pre med mind.

A physician is a physician. All statements that say otherwise are deviations from the truth and the reality of the working relationship between allopathic and osteopathic physicians.

How sour are those grapes?

 

[osckey]

How sour are those grapes?

Not really at all. I didn't really mean to post any of that stuff in a condescending tone at all. From what I read, I see a person who enjoys the DO philosophy, enjoys the relatively newer facilities, enjoys the faculty, yet his/her decision hinges upon residencies in the future (which is admirable).

I'm kind of sad to see that being the deciding factor. The OP definitely has some strong numbers for either philosophy of medicine that he chooses.

Make the decision based off of what makes most sense personally, academically, and financially. Good luck!

 

[madmike 20]

I understand that, but I meant to underline how little of a difference it makes. Yes, you were told by your friend of his unfortunate experience. However, and a very big however, you need to look at the data. You will find that, if you do well academically and manage your ECs well during your stay in medical school, doors will open regarding your future no matter the philosophy of the school you came from.

You're trying to deal in a currency of "what ifs" when you have certainties in the bank. You have no idea what specialties will catch your eye when in medical school. Your clinical rotations will do a good job of showing what you like and what you are good at doing.

Let's assume you do choose a rather competitive specialty after all of that and you are rejected from a residency based solely on the fact that you are a DO. How badly do you want to be involved in a residency program that shows clear bias against individuals? Do you believe such a program would even have your best interests in mind if you were accepted? Can you imagine the kind of cynicism that must be plaguing that program if there is enough of it to interfere with their admissions process?

Please understand that I am being as objective as possible here. So far I know that you are happy with the DO philosophy, you are happy with the facilities and you are happy with the faculty. On the other hand, your credentials are solid and I believe that the main reason you don't currently find yourself with an MD acceptance is that you don't seem to have applied broadly enough. Applying again means waiting another year and delaying yourself.

Are you willing to delay yourself? Do you feel that you can make the gap year worth it? I can imagine that saying "no" to acceptances is an extremely difficult thing to do.

At the end of the day, I am rooting for you. I just want to challenge you to give this more thought. Look at the match rates for DO and MD.

Very well said. If I reapply MD I can "most likely" land a MD school which will help me out with applying to the more competitive residencies, but will going MD really be worth it in the end? I don't know because like you said I could change my mind during medical school OR I could potentially land one of the more competitive residencies as a DO with some extra work. Also with the merger starting next year by the time I apply for residencies the bias could be a little bit less and my chances could increase. There are a lot of "what ifs" because I do have a few specialties in mind that I think I'd really like to get into but a few of them happen to be specialties that are not very DO friendly.

 

[madmike 20]

What specialty are you talking about, if you don't mind me asking? I agree with your decision, I'm just curious to see what specialty you are talking about.

i want to go into medical school with as much of an open mind as i can but i believe one thing is set in stone and that's being a pediatric specialist. the few specialties that i have in mind are pediatric neurosurgery, or pediatric gen surgery. if i find out that surgery really isn't my thing then i'd really like to get into something like peds heme/onc or peds cards or neuro. i know that most acgme pediatric residencies are fairly DO friendly but i would want to land a more "reputable" pediatric residency with a strong peds heme/onc or other fellowship i'd wanna get into which i believe would be much easier as an MD than a DO (esp any pediatric surgical specialties which i know is a long shot even as a MD).

 

[madmike 20]

if i happen to take a gap year what should i do in the meantime? are there any 1 year master programs that i could potentially apply for last minute or should i do something else with my time? i don't really know what people do during their gap year. i already have my degree in biology (concentration in cellular/molecular biology) so there really aren't too many other post-bac biology courses i can take that would help me out too much besides for an anatomy course with cadavers.

 

[medman89]

I've heard of a bunch of Pharmacology 1 year programs.

 

[basketcase0a0]

I always thought that med schools heavily frowned upon individuals who turned down an acceptance from a previous cycle because doing so shows a lack of commitment to medicine. If I were on an adcom at an MD school and saw you were a reapplicant who got in somewhere, DO or MD, last cycle but didn't matriculate I would throw your application in the trash. But hey, maybe that's just me.

And that would be doubly true at DO schools if your plan failed and you had to go back to applying DO. So that's something to consider, though current adcoms can probably shed more light on that than I can

 

[madmike 20]

I always thought that med schools heavily frowned upon individuals who turned down an acceptance from a previous cycle because doing so shows a lack of commitment to medicine. If I were on an adcom at an MD school and saw you were a reapplicant who got in somewhere, DO or MD, last cycle but didn't matriculate I would throw your application in the trash. But hey, maybe that's just me.

And that would be doubly true at DO schools if your plan failed and you had to go back to applying DO. So that's something to consider, though current adcoms can probably shed more light on that than I can

i love how there's so much hate against someone thinking about going MD over DO to better there chances at landing the residency they want. let's just say a large number (if not the majority) of DO students would have gone MD if given the opportunity. the majority of DO students are students who either didn't have the stats (MCAT, GPA, or both) to get into a MD school OR did have the stats but just didn't get accepted. it's not very often that a DO student was accepted to both MD and DO and turned down the MD (not including Caribbean) to go DO. sure it happens every year but the majority of students accepted to both MD and DO turn down the DO to go MD and a lot of the time for the same reasons i'm stating why i might retry for MD rather than go DO. it's not that i believe MD is better than DO or vice versa but it's no secret that going MD increases your chances significantly for landing a solid residency program. i'm not 100% sure if i'm going to turn down my acceptance to the DO school but i believe my reasons for thinking twice about going DO are somewhat respectable and logical.

i'm just looking for some "good" advice on my situation and what i should do if i take a gap year rather than accusing me of being a "wannabe MD" or a traitor against osteopathic medical schools

 

[AggieNation90]

i love how there's so much hate against someone thinking about going MD over DO to better there chances at landing the residency they want. let's just say a large number (if not the majority) of DO students would have gone MD if given the opportunity. the majority of DO students are students who either didn't have the stats (MCAT, GPA, or both) to get into a MD school OR did have the stats but just didn't get accepted. it's not very often that a DO student was accepted to both MD and DO and turned down the MD (not including Caribbean) to go DO. sure it happens every year but the majority of students accepted to both MD and DO turn down the DO to go MD and a lot of the time for the same reasons i'm stating why i might retry for MD rather than go DO. it's not that i believe MD is better than DO or vice versa but it's no secret that going MD increases your chances significantly for landing a solid residency program. i'm not 100% sure if i'm going to turn down my acceptance to the DO school but i believe my reasons for thinking twice about going DO are somewhat respectable and logical.

i'm just looking for some "good" advice on my situation and what i should do if i take a gap year rather than accusing me of being a "wannabe MD" or a traitor against osteopathic medical schools

I respect your decision to think twice about it, however if it's not a secret, then why apply to DO in the first place? I think the biggest issue is that you may turn down an opportunity to be a physician. Unless you stated specifically in your application " I only want to serve patients as a specialized pediatric physician," then where did all your other motives go? Everyone has their opinion and a right to a career in which they fit, but it sounds like you're essentially saying "I don't want to be a physician UNLESS it's in said specific residency, and if being a DO makes that harder, then it's not for me." Either way I wish you the best of luck!

 

[madmike 20]

I respect your decision to think twice about it, however if it's not a secret, then why apply to DO in the first place? I think the biggest issue is that you may turn down an opportunity to be a physician. Unless you stated specifically in your application " I only want to serve patients as a specialized pediatric physician," then where did all your other motives go? Everyone has their opinion and a right to a career in which they fit, but it sounds like you're essentially saying "I don't want to be a physician UNLESS it's in said specific residency, and if being a DO makes that harder, then it's not for me." Either way I wish you the best of luck!

i get what you're saying but like i said in a earlier post, i didn't realize the bias against DOs at the more competitive residencies when i applied, which is my fault for not knowing. trust me, i hope i'm over analyzing this whole issue and that i'm wrong with saying the things that i've said because i don't want to sit out another year and i love the DO school i've been accepted to but there's just a lot of crap going on with the AOA/ACGME merger and i don't know how that's going to unfold PLUS i don't know what residencies are going to shut their door in my face right off the start because i'm a DO rather than a MD. there's a lot of "what ifs" and risk no matter which way i go. i appreciate the advice

 

[osckey]

That's understandable

 

[Pattycake25]

OP, I understand the complexities of your situation. At the end of the day though, you are going to be taking a major chance either route: either you accept the DO and risk the degree closing your desired doors (although keep in mind this is 4 years in the future we are talking about, at a time in which MDs professionalism towards DOs has never been higher), or you decline the DO offers and risk not getting into medicine at all. We can't tell you which choice to make. I will point out that the only "data" that has been referenced here was Goro's post in support of DO prospects (and he knows what he's talking about, as you yourself acknowledged). I think someone as intelligent as yourself also recognizes the general flaws of anecdotal evidence, in the case of your friend - not to mention n=1.

I would agree with an above poster that med school is tough enough for anyone, so you do NOT want to be going through it riddled with self-doubt or resentment. However, you have a very specific goal in mind that is single-handedly responsible for the doubt you face. What in particular drives you down that path? What is it about peds neurosurg that stands so tall above everything else? I can't imagine your passion is so immutably precise that you couldn't possibly satisfy yourself with any other specialty.

 

[basketcase0a0]

i love how there's so much hate against someone thinking about going MD over DO to better there chances at landing the residency they want. let's just say a large number (if not the majority) of DO students would have gone MD if given the opportunity. the majority of DO students are students who either didn't have the stats (MCAT, GPA, or both) to get into a MD school OR did have the stats but just didn't get accepted. it's not very often that a DO student was accepted to both MD and DO and turned down the MD (not including Caribbean) to go DO. sure it happens every year but the majority of students accepted to both MD and DO turn down the DO to go MD and a lot of the time for the same reasons i'm stating why i might retry for MD rather than go DO. it's not that i believe MD is better than DO or vice versa but it's no secret that going MD increases your chances significantly for landing a solid residency program. i'm not 100% sure if i'm going to turn down my acceptance to the DO school but i believe my reasons for thinking twice about going DO are somewhat respectable and logical.

i'm just looking for some "good" advice on my situation and what i should do if i take a gap year rather than accusing me of being a "wannabe MD" or a traitor against osteopathic medical schools

I never said anything about going MD over DO. I only applied MD myself because I didn't really want to be a DO. Your reasons are somewhat (emphasis on somewhat) logical.

But regardless, I'm saying that if I were reviewing applications and saw someone had turned down an opportunity to become a doctor in the last year I would heavily question that person's commitment to medicine, regardless of whether that had been an MD or DO acceptance. And while I can't speak for everyone, or even anyone other than myself, I believe that I am not alone in holding that opinion. It has nothing to do with MD vs DO and everything to do with desire to be a physician, to my point of view anyway.

At the end of the day, it's a bird in the hand vs two in the bush. I can't tell you what to choose, just one potential pitfall of letting go of that DO acceptance.

 

[madmike 20]

OP, I understand the complexities of your situation. At the end of the day though, you are going to be taking a major chance either route: either you accept the DO and risk the degree closing your desired doors (although keep in mind this is 4 years in the future we are talking about, at a time in which MDs professionalism towards DOs has never been higher), or you decline the DO offers and risk not getting into medicine at all. We can't tell you which choice to make. I will point out that the only "data" that has been referenced here was Goro's post in support of DO prospects (and he knows what he's talking about, as you yourself acknowledged). I think someone as intelligent as yourself also recognizes the general flaws of anecdotal evidence, in the case of your friend - not to mention n=1.

I would agree with an above poster that med school is tough enough for anyone, so you do NOT want to be going through it riddled with self-doubt or resentment. However, you have a very specific goal in mind that is single-handedly responsible for the doubt you face. What in particular drives you down that path? What is it about peds neurosurg that stands so tall above everything else? I can't imagine your passion is so immutably precise that you couldn't possibly satisfy yourself with any other specialty.

I appreciate your response and I do agree with you, there's risk no matter which route I go. The reasons I want peds is because I've worked in a health care setting for a few years now taking care of little kids up to geriatrics and absolutely love working with the kids (infants to adolescents). I have many family friends who are doctors ranging from family med, IM, ortho, and neurosurgery and I've seen them in work for years now and I can assure you I will not be going primary care and I'm heavily leaning towards something in peds. Peds neurosurgery is just an interest. I'm gonna go in with an open mind but is a peds specialty something that is set in stone, of course not, because I know I might have a change of heart in medical school BUT its the whole "what if" I do end up wanting to go peds surgery or peds heme/onc as a DO? that's gonna be one hell of a feat to overcome as a DO (hard enough even for a MD) but from the general opinion I'm kinda seeing from mostly everyone is that I should probably take the DO acceptance and cross this bridge when I get there in a few years

 

[PlasticBag]

Even supposing that the bias against DOs in the match will be minimized thanks to the merger, wouldn't it still be harder for DO students because of factors such as research/rotations, etc.? It is my understanding that you need some pretty good research to get into a competitive residency (is it true?), and if DO schools don't focus on research as heavily as MD schools, I'd imagine it might be harder to get that experience. What do most DO students do? Try to do research at a nearby MD school or some unaffiliated hospitals? Is it even a problem at all? As for rotations, is the quality compromised if you don't have access to big university hospitals that are usually available for MD students?

(I'm interested in both DO and MD schools but like OP, I want to make sure what are the difficulties associated with both).

 

[el_duderino]

I think it would be crazy to give up DO acceptance for an attempt at MD.

Imagine how you'd feel in May of 2015 with no MD acceptances knowing you gave up the chance to matriculate at a DO program 9 months prior.

 

[madmike 20]

Even supposing that the bias against DOs in the match will be minimized thanks to the merger, wouldn't it still be harder for DO students because of factors such as research/rotations, etc.? It is my understanding that you need some pretty good research to get into a competitive residency (is it true?), and if DO schools don't focus on research as heavily as MD schools, I'd imagine it might be harder to get that experience. What do most DO students do? Try to do research at a nearby MD school or some unaffiliated hospitals? Is it even a problem at all? As for rotations, is the quality compromised if you don't have access to big university hospitals that are usually available for MD students?

(I'm interested in both DO and MD schools but like OP, I want to make sure what are the difficulties associated with both).

it is somewhat true that you need to do some sort of research to land the more competitive residencies, but i'm not sure if that's a "must" always or not. it is true that DO schools don't focus as heavily on research as MD schools but some DO schools have some good research opportunities for their students. the DO school i've been accepted to is somewhat affiliated with a cancer research hospital that allows many of the DO students to go and do cancer research which is great for me since i'm interested in peds heme/onc.

with regards to rotations (again i can't speak about this as well as an actual med student), i've heard that the some of the best rotations are the medium sized hospitals with not too many residents so you can "get in on the action" as well as having a good amount of exposure to a variety of cases. one of the MD schools i've been wait listed (where a lot of my friends go to) that is affiliated with only their own university hospitals (very large research hospital) is notorious for treating the med students like crap and the residents do everything where the med students just kind of sit by and watch. i know nothing about other MD school rotations but i guess just because it's a large university hospital doesn't necessarily mean you're going to have a great rotation experience. but like the DO school i've been accepted to, their rotation hospitals are for the most part medium sized hospitals with not "too many" residents and all the med students that i've talked to absolutely love their rotations. my knowledge on this is very limited but that's just what i've been told so far about rotations. hope that helped somewhat.

 

[Lamel]

You seem to be set on wanting MD, so do what will make you most content in life.

But I must warn, you better put a strong app forward. Your MCAT has an 8 in a subsection, which is workable of course but not ideal. And your GPA is fairly average (sGPA is great though). You should be able to get an MD acceptance.

It's just unfortunate you went a whole year but didn't apply to more MD schools. Best of luck.

 

[PlasticBag]

with regards to rotations (again i can't speak about this as well as an actual med student), i've heard that the some of the best rotations are the medium sized hospitals with not too many residents so you can "get in on the action" as well as having a good amount of exposure to a variety of cases. one of the MD schools i've been wait listed (where a lot of my friends go to) that is affiliated with only their own university hospitals (very large research hospital) is notorious for treating the med students like crap and the residents do everything where the med students just kind of sit by and watch. i know nothing about other MD school rotations but i guess just because it's a large university hospital doesn't necessarily mean you're going to have a great rotation experience. but like the DO school i've been accepted to, their rotation hospitals are for the most part medium sized hospitals with not "too many" residents and all the med students that i've talked to absolutely love their rotations. my knowledge on this is very limited but that's just what i've been told so far about rotations. hope that helped somewhat.

thanks, that was helpful. I think I read somewhere (probably sdn!) that some rotations are in preceptors' private offices, and not hospitals, which doesn't seem like a great experience. As long as the rotations are at some hospital, I think I'd be happy.

Btw, in your position, I'd take the DO acceptance and just try to do more research/volunteering that would be relevant to your specialty. It's a whole year of life and a whole trauma of applying again that you'd be sparing yourself. But then, if you're not in a hurry, maybe this doesn't matter so much. Also, assuming you'd be applying to MD schools only and you'll have to apply broadly, you need to take into account that you might not get into the school of your top choice and geographic location. Everyone is different, but I'd rather be in a DO school in a city I'd enjoy living in, rather than an MD school in the middle of nowhere.

good luck! And congrats on so many DO acceptances.

 

[madmike 20]

thanks, that was helpful. I think I read somewhere (probably sdn!) that some rotations are in preceptors' private offices, and not hospitals, which doesn't seem like a great experience. As long as the rotations are at some hospital, I think I'd be happy.

Btw, in your position, I'd take the DO acceptance and just try to do more research/volunteering that would be relevant to your specialty. It's a whole year of life and a whole trauma of applying again that you'd be sparing yourself. But then, if you're not in a hurry, maybe this doesn't matter so much. Also, assuming you'd be applying to MD schools only and you'll have to apply broadly, you need to take into account that you might not get into the school of your top choice and geographic location. Everyone is different, but I'd rather be in a DO school in a city I'd enjoy living in, rather than an MD school in the middle of nowhere.

good luck! And congrats on so many DO acceptances.

I most certainly agree with that statement. I love the area and the school itself a whole lot and I'm not sure if I'd pass that up for just "any" MD school. I am wait listed at 2 MD schools (both of which I like a lot) with a decent shot of getting an acceptance to at least 1 of them but if I don't get in I think I'll probably just take the DO acceptance and do everything I can to land the residency of my choice.

 

[Xenoblade]

the reason that i'm thinking about reapplying straight MD and very broadly is because of the fact that i've been reading up on the merger and how this will affect the DOs and the AOA. the merger "sounded" like a great thing at first for the DOs but now so many DOs are protesting against it and listing all the negatives that will come from the merger for the DOs. i know reapplying MD is a risk but i believe that the risk of reapplying MD will be less than the risk of me going DO and landing the residency of my choice.

my ECs are solid like working in a healthcare setting (PTA) for 2 1/2 years, variety of volunteer experiences, biology tutor and lab instructor for a year, multiple biology dept awards, semester of research in RA, and average amount of shadowing experience and some more that i can't think of right now. so nothing "phenomenal" but solid.

i just want as many options open for me as possible when i apply to residencies and i know that going DO will close the doors of many of those "reputable/competitive" residencies. i believe the bias that these more competitive ACGME residencies hold against DOs is absolutely ridiculous but if you want into their program you have to play their game. i absolutely love the DO school that i've picked as my top choice but i also know that i'll have to jump several hurdles such as rocking the USMLE and COMLEX both, being the top in my class, doing lots of away rotations at places (some of which i'll have to pay to just rotate at) that i'm interested in, and many other things. as a DO wanting to land a competitive ACGME residency i have to go above and beyond that of what the average MD will have to do for the same spot. i'm not worried about the bias as a physician or the letters next to my name whatsoever, it's all about landing the residency that i want and going DO is nothing more than an uphill struggle. it's hard enough as an MD, but as a DO it's even more difficult to get that residency spot. again, i'm not talking about a residency spot at some average ACGME medicine or peds residency but a more competitive/reputable residency program.

any advice would be greatly appreciated...thanks

It sounds like you want a competitive residency.

My vote goes to reapply md. lots of people don't take the do degree seriously and throw all apps in the trash come time for residency, which is really insulting and demeaning.

Unless you want to do primary care or don't have an itch to do something hyper competitive, your do degree will be fine. Just don't expect to land a surgical subspecialty or derm.

I will start a md program and the chances of me landing derm is close to zero.

 

[madmike 20]

It sounds like you want a competitive residency.

My vote goes to reapply md. lots of people don't take the do degree seriously and throw all apps in the trash come time for residency, which is really insulting and demeaning.

Unless you want to do primary care or don't have an itch to do something hyper competitive, your do degree will be fine. Just don't expect to land a surgical subspecialty or derm.

I will start a md program and the chances of me landing derm is close to zero.

well i know that i most certainly don't want derm, plastics, rads onc, or any of those residencies. yes i know if i go DO my chance of getting a peds neuro/general surgery is next to impossible but i'm leaning way more towards peds heme/onc or another peds subspecialty. landing a competitive peds residency i know will be very difficult and i'll have to do a lot of away audition rotations at some of the residencies i have in mind but DOs do it every year (not many of course). i just hope i can get off one of the wait lists at these MD schools but if i don't i think i'm gonna take the DO acceptance, rock my classes and comlex/usmle, do my away rotations at the places i'm interested in, and hope for the best. there's no guarantee of landing a top peds residency by going MD either, just better odds, but waiting another year just doesn't sound very appealing to me anymore. it's not like i'm going to land a top MD school anyways if i do reapply plus in 4 years from now the acgme peds residencies may be a little more accepting of DOs by then (i can only hope). thanks for the response though

 

[Xenoblade]

well i know that i most certainly don't want derm, plastics, rads onc, or any of those residencies. yes i know if i go DO my chance of getting a peds neuro/general surgery is next to impossible but i'm leaning way more towards peds heme/onc or another peds subspecialty. landing a competitive peds residency i know will be very difficult and i'll have to do a lot of away audition rotations at some of the residencies i have in mind but DOs do it every year (not many of course). i just hope i can get off one of the wait lists at these MD schools but if i don't i think i'm gonna take the DO acceptance, rock my classes and comlex/usmle, do my away rotations at the places i'm interested in, and hope for the best. there's no guarantee of landing a top peds residency by going MD either, just better odds, but waiting another year just doesn't sound very appealing to me anymore. it's not like i'm going to land a top MD school anyways if i do reapply plus in 4 years from now the acgme peds residencies may be a little more accepting of DOs by then (i can only hope). thanks for the response though

Gen surge is very doable.

Lots of peds sub spec are still open to you. In your case, everything sounds good. Just don't expect to land a pets residency at like nyu.

Gl.

Can I ask which med school you got into?

 

[madmike 20]

Yeah I know if I go DO places like that and CHOP, Cincy, and other premiere peds residencies are out but even those places hold a bias against mid to low MD schools somewhat so even if I did hold out for MD and got a spot it's no guarantee to land one of those premiere peds residencies anyways, just better odds

I got into multiple DO schools but the DO school I chose is VCOM