Going back to Canada with MD from US

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Divine Comedy, Feb 23, 2017.

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  1. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Dear all,

    Got in one of my dream schools. Will hopefully be graduating from a top 3 medical school in the US few years down the road. I'm thinking of returning to Canada ultimately to practice for personal reasons. I hold a PhD related to one of the sub-fields in IM if it helps. I am also a Canadian citizen who does not hold a Green Card or US passport.

    Hope to pursue IM followed by a fellowship such as cardiology, endocrinology, infectious diseases, or heme/onc. Ob/gyn is also a possibility, and so is derm.

    What are the different pathways to go about doing this?

    I heard it's best for me to complete my residency and fellowship in the States before heading back. Any suggestions?

    Where could I find helpful information about licensing equivalents?

    Any help is sincerely appreciated. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  3. mashmetoo

    mashmetoo 7+ Year Member

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    It'll be a long and complicated process, with many things out of your control. What do you know so far? What research have you done into coming back?

    You'll need to know about the following:
    US Visas - F1, H1B, J1, Health Canada, Statement of need
    US exams: USMLEs1,2ck,cs,3
    Canadian exam, MCCQE1,2
    Royal college assessment process.
    If Ontario - CPSO Pathway 3.

    Once you know all of this, you'll begin to understand what it would take to come back.
    I went through a similar path, so I know this won't be easy.
    If you are feeling up for it, my book (signature) talks about exactly the things you need to know to pull this off.
     
    keepontruckin04 likes this.
  4. ConfusedChemist

    ConfusedChemist 2+ Year Member

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    To be fair, there's a big huge difference between trying to come back with a DO vs an MD degree. One is equivalent to Canadian education in all match-related things, the other places you as an IMG which is a whole other set of challenges/biases when most people here aren't familiar with a DO degree.

    Try premed101. There's more info there. And assuming you aren't talking about a DO school, then coming back for residency is likely the simplest route
     
  5. mashmetoo

    mashmetoo 7+ Year Member

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    No, that is incorrect. If he wanted to match through CaRMs, then yes, it is quite different as you say. What he's talking about is moving to Canada after he has received full ACGME training in the US, which is essentially the same as what you would do as a DO trying to come back. He's not talking about residency matching in Canada. This is about getting Canadian certification/licensing after full training in the US. Whether a DO degree is well known or not in Canada has nothing to do with the question at hand.

    And FYI, even if the OP was a DO trying to come back (we're talking about after completing full training in the US), it would essentially be the same as that of a MD trying to come back.

    Also, regarding the comment about coming back to Canada for residency being the simplest route.. that is also unfortunately not true. In general, it is hard to get residency training in Canada without attending a Canadian med school.

    http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Table_1_Summary_of_Match_Results_English.pdf

    This year, out of 33 US MDs who attempted CaRMs, only 18 made it back. I would hardly call those odds the "simplest route".
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
    PistolPete likes this.
  6. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Thank you both for your insightful answers. I am open to either pathway (e.g. coming back after full licensure or for residency). Regardless of which pathway, I am more concerned about the career prospect in Canada. Of the specialties I listed, are there certain ones that I should avoid? Are there specialties that make it easier to come back due to physician shortage in those areas?

    Are there websites that are good starting points for preliminary information? I basically don't know anything about this process.

    I also heard that prestige of the medical school matters very little to residency programs in Canada. Successful match usually depends on performance at the "away" rotation, and going to a top MD school in the US confers no advantages. Is there any truth to this?

    My preference at this stage is to stay within the US system for residency and fellowship (meaning taking the USMLE and going through residency as well as fellowship matches).

    Once again, thank you both for your help.
     
  7. ConfusedChemist

    ConfusedChemist 2+ Year Member

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    And you think that rate is equal or better for DO's?

    Nothing against it, I would have considered it myself if I didn't get into canadian schools, but it is missleading to say that that it would be the exact same as a CanadianUS-MD trying to come back. Again, I don't mean to argue or say it's not possible, but it is very different only being about to apply as an IMG instead of a CMG for Carms.

    Which of course I agree in that it's maybe easier to do residency in the US if you're a DO, but then there's all the visa things which is in constant flux with IM fellowships.

    And the fact that finding a job in fields like Cardio often requires at least a year or two, often more, of fellowships to get a job here. Coming from a training system people here don't know/understand wouldn't help matters.
     
  8. mashmetoo

    mashmetoo 7+ Year Member

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    We are literally talking about different things here. I already agreed with you, if you are talking about the CaRMs match, then yes, MDs in theory have it a lot easier since they match with the CMGs, DOs with the IMGs. No question there. But the 2016 match rate was 54%, take for it what you will. I could give you the DO stats for Canada this year, but no, I'm not going to bother. The point is, if you want to train in Canada, the best way is to get into a Canadian med school. Unfortunately, not everyone is lucky enough to pull it off, so people go overseas, or the US.
    If you read the OP's initial question, the question was on pathways to get back to Canada after US residency/fellowship training and licensing equivalents. No where did he mention he was interested in the CaRMs match initially, until you brought it up.
    I certainly am not talking about Canadian residency matching, I am talking about getting Canadian licensure after US ACGME training. And I'm going to say this again, it is essentially the same whether you are a MD or a DO. It's not misleading, it's not some magical unobtainable object. It's simply a sequence of documents you submit to the provincial colleges/royal college to get another stamp and document that says you are now considered equivalent to a Canadian provider. When I say that it is essentially the same, I wonder what you think I mean by that? I'm not talking about the match success rate, I'm not talking about impressing some Canadian residency program, I'm talking about the paperwork you have to go through to get Canadian equivalency, which is essentially the same for both degrees.

    The visa issue you speak of is not DO specific, it affects any non-US citizen doing postgraduate education in the US (MD, IMG, all are affected).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  9. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Thank you for both of your help. I did a preliminary job search on each provincial health ministry's website, and was shocked to find that the job market seems pretty bleak for most specialties I'm interested in (e.g. no job openings in most provinces for cardiology and heme/onc). A few derm, ob/gyn, and ID openings in BC and Alberta. Most openings are in Ontario.

    Am I pretty much limited to family medicine if I return to Canada?
     
  10. PistolPete

    PistolPete 10+ Year Member

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    What's the actual job market like, though, Ontario in/near major metro areas? I keep hearing that jobs are no-where to be found near Toronto and only in the boonies, but I hear from other Canadian attendings who live in the US that jobs are amazing in Canada, so I don't know which is true?
     
  11. ConfusedChemist

    ConfusedChemist 2+ Year Member

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    It's bad. Really bad.

    The jobs are great if you have one, but just try and look for jobs online in surgery in Canada. You won't find many.
     
  12. PistolPete

    PistolPete 10+ Year Member

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    Is psychiatry any better?
     
  13. ConfusedChemist

    ConfusedChemist 2+ Year Member

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    GOOGLE.

    Please. That's where I would find any info. It's not that hard
     
  14. mashmetoo

    mashmetoo 7+ Year Member

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    I'd say it's much easier for psychiatry than specialties like IM/surgery. Huge mental health burden, wait list to see a psychiatrist can take months. Just do outpatient psych, no problem with referrals.
     
  15. PistolPete

    PistolPete 10+ Year Member

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    You think I've never heard of Google? Your attitude is not helpful.
     
  16. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Psychiatry fares better. Just checked the number of openings for psychiatry in BC. There are 12 permanent positions and 1 locum hiring in the Greater Vancouver area (Vancouver, North Van, Richmond, Surrey etc). Job market is substantially better than IM/surgery but obviously not as great as family med.
     
    PistolPete likes this.
  17. PistolPete

    PistolPete 10+ Year Member

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    Cool, thanks!
     
  18. Medstart108

    Medstart108 5+ Year Member

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    Definitely the former. US attendings are not up to date on the job market in Canada, they are probably about 10-15 years behind. The job market was good back in the 00s until the great recession. Right now in IM there are jobs in GIM but i've recently met some GIM fellows who are doing sub-fellowships in hopes of finding jobs. Now they may be looking for a GTHA job, but the market is pretty much poor in all of IM except for Rheum, GIM (which may be getting worse).

    The general rule is if you want to do invasive (where much of the money is) you'll find trouble getting a job.

    I've come across many fellows in fields that formerly had plenty of jobs doing second or third fellowships waiting for a job to open up. I would recommend just doing your residency in the states and IM sub spec fellowship as well. At that point if you are still interested in staying in Canada you might want to do a sub-fellowship in Canada which would help you find a job, or depending on your field and job market just coming back to Canada to practice. The problem is even more acute for surgery specifically Ortho and Cardiac where jobs anywhere are short.

    Also, the job market might change in 10 years when you start practicing, so keep that in mind. Especially as someone now in the States with a foot in the door in two countries, as long as you are open to where you end up (and you should be considering ur already in the states), you'll be fine with most specialties.
     
  19. PistolPete

    PistolPete 10+ Year Member

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    Thanks! I'm actually taking an attending job here in the States, but just wanted to keep Canada in mind for the future.
     
  20. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Thank you & super informative! Looks like I'll stay in the US for both residency and IM sub-specialty fellowship before making the move to head back north.
     
  21. nonamesleft

    nonamesleft 10+ Year Member

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    Is there centralized data or are you using province-specific sites for this info? Would it be possible to get the links from you?
     
  22. Divine Comedy

    Divine Comedy

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    Each province has its own website. Kudos to BC for designing such a pretty site. Disappointed by the lack of openings in my desired specialties though.

    https://www.healthmatchbc.org/
     
    PistolPete likes this.
  23. nonamesleft

    nonamesleft 10+ Year Member

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    Thanks!
     
  24. bannie22

    bannie22 Hero 7+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    Four years of medical school
    Three years of residency
    Two years of fellowship

    I think it is way too early to be contemplating the job market because things will change.
     
  25. nonamesleft

    nonamesleft 10+ Year Member

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    Did you end up matching back to Canada or staying in the US?
     
  26. bannie22

    bannie22 Hero 7+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    I am in USA
     
  27. kegar99

    kegar99

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    Aside from the job market in Canada vs. the US, what kind of a process is there to come back to Canada after completing med school (MD) and residency in the US? I heard from someone that when you come back to Canada, there is a period of time where you have to work under some kind of supervision and aren't completely autonomous until they can verify that you're capable enough to practice on your own. Can anyone verify if this is true or not? I tried doing some searching on this but struggled to find anything concrete. I also realize this might be province dependent.
     
  28. mashmetoo

    mashmetoo 7+ Year Member

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    On the contrary, there's actually quite a few posts on the "Canada" page of this forum on the exact topic of returning to Canada after US residency training. I have personally answered this question a few times. Check out my previous posts.
     

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